Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Those of you people vilifying Apple over this, I'd like to see how you would feel if you invested your precious resources in something only to watch someone else rip it off and profit from your hard work.

Again, this is not about ripping anyone's hard work off. Nor is it anything against Apple. (If anybody is against any entity, it should be the USPTO.)

--

I think what some people here are missing, is that a patent lawsuit doesn't necessarily mean that anyone stole anything at all.

When you get a patent, you can stop anyone else who even comes up with the same idea for the following 20 years. That's the way patents work, for better or worse.

In this case, Apple filed a patent on an idea fifteen years ago... a decade before any work began on the iPhone or Android. It was just one of millions of patents and no doubt wasn't even remembered until Apple needed some ammunition. Heck, they're probably as surprised as anyone, that out of ten patents, this was the only one that was useful.

--

Apple didn't accuse HTC of stealing any ideas. It's not about that, so any childish anger is totally misplaced and inappropriate. It's simply about the fact that having a patent gives you the right to stop others with the same idea. Apple used that right.

In turn, HTC had no reason to write it a different way until they were forced to by the ITC decision.

Of course, eventually the patent will expire and this whole discussion will be moot. By then, most of the currently angry posters won't even remember it. What a waste of energy.
 
In 2007 Steve got up on stage, having come completely out of left field with a landmark product and declared "boy have we patented it!" This goes for most of Apple's products.

Fair warning. Apple's version of the patent game was never any secret.

Oh god. Just read the patent. It's not from 2006-08 sherlock.
 
Almost nothing? The threat of the ban appears to have convinced them to stop violating the patents that they were found to violate. Isn't that the point?

The point is nothing like that, since there was no "violation" until the very moment that the ITC decided so.

Apple wanted to throw a roadblock at HTC and dug up a bunch of patents, some pretty old.

In turn, HTC had absolutely no reason to rewrite any of their own code until or unless the ITC told them they had to.

As it turned out, HTC was right to wait, since nine out of ten Apple patents were deemed to not being applicable. Now HTC only had to rewrite code for one.
 
How much do you think one would need to invest into inventing a click-to-dial feature? Thirty dollars? It's about an hour of work to implement this (and 1 minute to "invent" because it's so obvious). The thing was not used before only because dialing from mainframe computers (and even PCs) made no sense.

It's a lot more than an hour. The sensor design and subsystem functionality all has to be put into place to discern that click from other multi-touch actions. Then there is the design and flushing out of methods to be optimized within the OS stack.
 
Prefect World?

Just let the people decide what they want.


And are "The People" going to pay for the Apple R&D expenses? And are "The People" going to explain to Apple share holders that profits are down since they are giving away the designs to the competition?

You must live in LA LA Land?
 
LoL, got through half a page and almost vomited because of the fanboyism going on. How many patents is apple infringing upon?
 
I have a serious question, I'm not trolling. If iOS is proprietary isn't this just clean room reverse enginerring at worst, which as far as I know is legal. Also if the method is too similar doesn't the proprietary nature mean it is just coincidence. Reading posts I hear this has been around a long time, doesn't this show google didn't copy apple all they did was stumble upon an implementation a little too similar?

No. The patent has been public for quite some time. If HTC had been able to prove their implementation preceded the original submission of the patent, then they would have had a case.

Patents exist specifically to provide a mechanism by which a company can invent something, show the world exactly how it works, and still profit from the invention. IMHO, it's a system in need of major overhaul in the Software world at least, but that is the idea of a patent. The process being patented becomes public, in exchange for protection from other companies using the patent for a period of time (but they can research "next leaps forward" based on the published patent).

----------

I want a company that produces the very best, focusses 100% of it's effort, time and money into making the very best product and (NOTE TO APPLE......) RANGE of products so that everyone wants to buy them as this company (Apple) produces a range of products that fit various peoples needs and budgets.


Note to Apple's Lawyers: Get yourselves busy coding up iOS 6! Stop wasting your days on this stupid patent BS!

----------

THIS.

Prior art, people.

This court decision is fucking retarded and will without a doubt be overturned on appeal.

I read the original post there as snark. There has not been a single patent claim in the news in the past 10 years that "someone on the Internet" has not conclusively proven is invalid due to prior art.

Either all software patents in the past 10 years or so are invalid due to prior art and the stupid judges just can't get it through their heads, or "someone on the Internet" has a very poor track record in understanding the complexities and nuances of patent law. Applying Occam's Razor, which possibility do you think is more likely correct?
 
This is 2011

How much do you think one would need to invest into inventing a click-to-dial feature? Thirty dollars?


Your so funny! Thirty dollars! Best laugh of the day!

Where do live. Dilbert's Elbonia?
 
I bet the patent is longer than that one paragraph

Apple won on two claims, 1 and 8. Claim 1 and 8 of '647 reads as follows:

1) A computer-based system for detecting structures in data and performing actions on detected structures, comprising: an input device for receiving data; an output device for presenting the data; a memory storing information including program routines including an analyzer server for detecting structures in the data, and for linking actions to the detected structures; a user interface enabling the selection of a detected structure and a linked action; and an action processor for performing the selected action linked to the selected structure; and a processing unit coupled to the input device, the output device, and the memory for controlling the execution of the program routines.

and,

8) The system recited in claim 1, wherein the user interface highlights detected structures.

As for specificity, they're really only specific in the concept, the idea:

The background for the patent is the need for a system "…that identifies structures, associate candidate action to the structures, enables selection of an action and automatically performs the selected action on the structure". They point at prior art, and argue that while there are systems that make e.g. phone numbers actionable, they do are limited in that they do not recognize the detected data as a telephone number per se, and are limited in that they don't allow for multiple actions.

Against this backdrop, Apple describe their invention as follows: "The present invention overcomes the limitations and deficiencies of previous systems with a system that identifies structures in computer data, associates candidate actions with each detected structure, enables the selection of an action, and automatically performs the selected action on the identified structure."

Then (absurdly) they move on to state that:

"it will be appreciated that the system may operate on recognizable patterns for text, pictures, tablets, graphs, voice, etc. So long as a pattern is recognizable the system will operate on it."​

Meaning Apple basically filed a patent on pretty much anything and everything "SIRI-esque" (in the broad sense). The patent does not however go into specifics on HOW this will be achieved (the narrow sense); that is, how to solve the semantic interpretation of text, pictures, tablets, graphs, voice, etc.

Basically, what they're proposing is that text is parsed for "structures" which are then mapped to "structure-specific actions". A great idea (while hardly novel), without a great implementation (had they cracked the implementation, i would've accepted the patent on the spot. That would've been the invention of the century - however, we aren't even close to cracking that even decades later).

All they really say is that they have a CPU, I/O, memory, "a program to identify structures in a document and perform selected computer-based actions on the identified structures". Further, the program is said to include subroutines that include a "analyzer server, an application program interface, a user interface and an action processor". The analyzer server (AS) uses patterns to discover structures - how, is left out (and the idea itself is not novel). When the AS finds a pattern, it links a set of actionable actions (any action really). Granted, the patent is said to include methods through which "the document is analyzed using a pattern to identify corresponding structures". This method is not, however, specified (its an idea, not an implementation).

This, in essence, is the problem with the patent, and software patents in general. They tend to describe ideas, not implementations. Ideas should not, for obvious reasons, be patentable; the hard part is always implementing ideas - making them work. Abstract descriptions do not work. They're just functional decompositions of ideas, no more, no less. For example, i could easily write a patent mimicking that of Apple, that would be a patent of the semantic web. I am not, however, anywhere near able to create the semantic web (nor is anyone else at this point, really, but we're getting there one step at the time).

One thing i do not get. Apple claim that their implementation works by the program itself having a UI*; that is, the program itself runs concurrently to the application in which the document is displayed, with its own UI. As such, any program that instead relies on the native UI of the Application (e.g. Mail) should be home free; i.e. any solution that is not based on running an overlay of document application in question. However, as i can't imagine that HTC is actually doing the UI thing, and the patent evidently passed through court, i could be misreading things. Like i said, i don't get it.... if it wasn't for the following "cover all bases"-lines:

"Application program interface then transmits this location information to user interface, which highlights the detected structures although other presentation mechanisms can be used"​

Further showing how broad, vague and non-implementation based the patent is (in the broad sense).

Apple then go on to show how the patent can be used for audio etc. (without explaining specifically how - besides pointing out that patterns will be used). They also cover the base of non-visual interfaces in term of the UI speaking actions back to the user.

As far as the Analyzer server goes, it is said to include a) a parser b) a grammar file. Alternatively or additionally a fast string search function or other function could be used (basically, covering all bases - once more. The opposite of being specific). Parser uses grammar to parse the file (i.e. to find structures). When structures are spotted, actions are associated (furthermore describing the functional decomposition of the idea, rather than the implementation of said idea; i.e. how do you go from grammar to structure?) .

Then, something confusing shows up again (as Apple becomes specific for a brief while). The patent states that "the parser retrieves from grammar file pointers attached to the grammar and attaches the same pointers to the identified structure". As such, a solution that implements a relational table between grammar and action, instead of coupling pointers within the grammar file should be fine. Maybe this is the case - if so, the patent is essentially worthless.

Now, Apple then shows some honest examples (Fig. 4). Here, for example, "Phone number:" is seen as grammar for "phone number". Actions associated are "Call #" and "Put in electronic telephone book". This shows the true nature of the patent; that is, what Apple really had implemented (think classic Voice command, rather than SIRI). This is also clear by Fig. 5. in the patent - showing a heavily marked up document in the form of:

This is my new

phone number: (415) 555-1234
address: 1 Hilly Street… and so on.
Clearly, its no where near as refined as what we have to day (meaning current implementations constitute substantial improvements of the original patent, and thus should not be seen as infringing). Thus, in my opinion it stands clear that Apples current claim goes well beyond the original point (i.e., what they actually sought to patent). Further, the only way to make the patent apply is to shred every single specific element, relying on broad, vague all-encompassing visionary ideas; things that should not be patentable.

* Maybe I'm tired here.


TL;DR: In general, the patent is vague, non-implementory in nature, and idea-driven. The few specificities included in the patent show a technology far from todays smart parsers. Further, if not for "cover all bases"-carte blanches in the filing, the patent wouldn't hold at all. Basically, the invention patented is on the level of recognizing that the text after "telephone number" should be parsed as a telephone number and associated with "telephone number actions". Thats it. No more, no less.
 
Last edited:
Do you honestly think that HTC hasn't looked into prior art? That their IP attorneys are so incompetent that "somebody on the internet" holds the key to their defense?

I absolutely don't, which is why the fact that Apple won this case makes little sense and is highly suspicious. I wonder if the judge was in their pocket.

You don't what? You don't think HTC looked into the patents and just went to court for the grins? Or you don't think their IP attorneys are competent?
 
You are quite the philosopher. As Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead. :rolleyes:

Blatant theft from Proverbs. :eek:

----------

It's a lot more than an hour. The sensor design and subsystem functionality all has to be put into place to discern that click from other multi-touch actions. Then there is the design and flushing out of methods to be optimized within the OS stack.

You never looked at the patent, right?
 
There has not been a single patent claim in the news in the past 10 years that "someone on the Internet" has not conclusively proven is invalid due to prior art.
Do you have a source for this claim, or did you just make it up?

The USA has a first-to-invent, rather than a first-to-file rule (until 2013) so Apple has no valid claim to the patent. Period.

Had you taken the time to read the reddit post (it is quite lengthy and comprehensive) you would realize that this is very clear cut.
 
And are "The People" going to pay for the Apple R&D expenses? And are "The People" going to explain to Apple share holders that profits are down since they are giving away the designs to the competition?

You must live in LA LA Land?

If they choose to buy Apple products, then yes, they are paying for Apple's R&D.
 
No. The patent has been public for quite some time. If HTC had been able to prove their implementation preceded the original submission of the patent, then they would have had a case.

Patents exist specifically to provide a mechanism by which a company can invent something, show the world exactly how it works, and still profit from the invention. IMHO, it's a system in need of major overhaul in the Software world at least, but that is the idea of a patent. The process being patented becomes public, in exchange for protection from other companies using the patent for a period of time (but they can research "next leaps forward" based on the published patent).

----------




Note to Apple's Lawyers: Get yourselves busy coding up iOS 6! Stop wasting your days on this stupid patent BS!

----------



I read the original post there as snark. There has not been a single patent claim in the news in the past 10 years that "someone on the Internet" has not conclusively proven is invalid due to prior art.

Either all software patents in the past 10 years or so are invalid due to prior art and the stupid judges just can't get it through their heads, or "someone on the Internet" has a very poor track record in understanding the complexities and nuances of patent law. Applying Occam's Razor, which possibility do you think is more likely correct?

Problem is, little in Apples presentation of the patent points us in the direction of HTC's implementation. We're talking over a decade of developments here. Basically, Apple describes how to go from:

Hi, this is my:

Number: 555-1234
Address: Loonalley 1

To:

Hi, this is my:

Number: [555-1234]
Address: Loonalley 1

With actions based on context; i.e. Number {call, store...}, Address {store...}

That is not the same as going from:

someone @example.com -> <a href="mailto:someone@example.com">someone@example.com</a>

Its not just that the solution is refined, its different. Regex != Apples "grammar", for example. In fact, its clear that Apple really had no clue how to implement this "properly". I'm sure they were pushing things at the time, but its hardly an elegant solution - basically, just mark-up. Very crude. No single specificity in the patent applications points us anywhere remotely to where we are today.

In essence, that is the problem:

Oft-times, we hear talks about hindsight, and how these things just appear obvious to us, looking back. Rather, the true story is more often than not that we disregard the specificities and re-interpret the proposed idea from our current position. We look not to what they actually invented, but how we would invent said thing today. Result: overly broad descriptions of mere ideas become state-of-the-art implementations. Its bizarre. We really have to stop the practice of de-historizing and de-situating patents, granting IP on vague ideas, completely disregarding specifics in the process.

Like already stated, had Apple done this in the 90's it would've been the bomb. Wow. Its just, they didn't. Sure, they had the idea. But they were clueless when it came to implementing it. Does our way of solving the problem show similarities? Of course. But that is due to decomposition of the fundamental problem being the same, not implementation.

I can decompose the problem of solving HIV, or treating cancer. I still have no freaking idea on how to do the actual job effectively. If someone 50 years later uses the same decomposition, but actually solves the real problem at hand - implementation - should he then be stopped? considered a copycat? Surely not.
 
Last edited:
Holding the evidence

LoL, got through half a page and almost vomited because of the fanboyism going on. How many patents is apple infringing upon?

Reading the truth hurts your eyes???

You paid almost as much for a cheap iPhone knockoff. And now they are getting nailed for it and you are holding the evidence.

Nice!
 
Reading the truth hurts your eyes???

You paid almost as much for a cheap iPhone knockoff. And now they are getting nailed for it and you are holding the evidence.

Nice!
So YOU know what device I use simply from my user name huh..... Ok.

My old dead pappy used to have a saying....., without stupid people there'd be no smart ones.

The point is nothing like that, since there was no "violation" until the very moment that the ITC decided so........

KD, you can't use logic here..... this is an apple fanboi forum didn't you know that? Apple good, every one else bad..... get it now?
 
Last edited:
Anyway, this is a dick move by Apple. They need to innovate, not litigate.

"They need to innovate":eek:

And Einstein copied E=MC2 from someone else. And the South won the Civil War. Right?

What alternate universe are you living in? Roid universe?:rolleyes:
 
I want a company that produces the very best, focusses 100% of it's effort, time and money into making the very best product and (NOTE TO APPLE......) RANGE of products so that everyone wants to buy them as this company (Apple) produces a range of products that fit various peoples needs and budgets.

If Anything, people like Samsung, Nokia etc do this. Producing everything from 50 to 500 dollar devices to appeal to all budgets and needs.
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nokia has been mismanaged almost to death and Samsung is a giant, soulless megacorp that helps control an entire country.

I can only come up with 3 companies offhand that behave how you described (maybe not the "range" part)....
www.svsound.com
http://mamabearssoaps.com/
http://www.stonyfield.com/

I'm sure there are more. Someday I'll find them. Ooh, maybe www.teslamotors.com, but again, very little range. (the pattern may be indicative of something)
 
apples a ***** cause they know android is now ahead of them. instead of spending their money on engineers to create new technology, they are spending it on lawyers to sue other companies that have surpassed them or are on the rise. They need to ****.
 
It's a lot more than an hour. The sensor design and subsystem functionality all has to be put into place to discern that click from other multi-touch actions. Then there is the design and flushing out of methods to be optimized within the OS stack.

That's not how these things work. There is no need for special sensor to "sense" phone numbers. Any sensor (touch screen or mouse) just gives OS the screen coordinates, OS converts screen coordinates to window coordinates and gives them to application. All application needs to do is to use a simple regular expression matching to identify phone numbers (or whatever) in the text and present them as clickable items.

----------

Your so funny! Thirty dollars! Best laugh of the day!

Where do live. Dilbert's Elbonia?

You probably genuinely believe that I was joking. I was not. In fact I was rather generous with $30. Here is a code for a regular expression that will give you all phone numbers in the document:

^(?:(?:\+?1\s*(?:[.-]\s*)?)?(?:\(\s*([2-9]1[02-9]|[2-9][02-8]1|[2-9][02-8][02-9])\s*\)|([2-9]1[02-9]|[2-9][02-8]1|[2-9][02-8][02-9]))\s*(?:[.-]\s*)?)?([2-9]1[02-9]|[2-9][02-9]1|[2-9][02-9]{2})\s*(?:[.-]\s*)?([0-9]{4})(?:\s*(?:#|x\.?|ext\.?|extension)\s*(\d+))?$


That's it. Does it cost more than $30?
 
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nokia has been mismanaged almost to death and Samsung is a giant, soulless megacorp that helps control an entire country.

I can only come up with 3 companies offhand that behave how you described (maybe not the "range" part)....
www.svsound.com
http://mamabearssoaps.com/
http://www.stonyfield.com/

I'm sure there are more. Someday I'll find them. Ooh, maybe www.teslamotors.com, but again, very little range. (the pattern may be indicative of something)

You do know that Nokia still sells more phones than anyone else, right? To paraphrase Jobs, the rumors of their death are greatly exaggerated. Still have 15bn or so in cash too, so yeah. Don't go planning for their funeral any time soon.
 
What in God's name are you smoking, do you even read back what you type?!

I conceded my position that it was acceptable reverse engineering because someone told me that only applies to copyright not patents - far enough. But are you seriously saying google looked at a VERY vague patent application and lifted the idea? You should have just gone with the "smart people do smart things similarly but it was patented, though luck" option, rather than accusing google of lifting a patent that pretty much is a patent of regular expressions.

After reading the patent, Google would've been worse off after reading it than if they hadn't read it at all. Theres really nothing in there that hints you in the right direction. On the contrary, the little there is probably pulls you in the wrong direction.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.