ITC Wants Apple Watch Sales Ban Reinstated: 'Apple Presents a Weak and Unconvincing Case'

[seggy]

Ah yeah so we have the following timeline.

• Apple makes watch.
• Masimo tries to launch competing watch which no one even hears about.
• Apple sues Masimo for patent violation for the watch archetype.
• Masimo stock and value tanks.
• Masimo executives switch their business model to patent litigation with an eye on unrealistically large demands on royalties.
• Masimo sues Apple for a minor and vague technical infringement and gets a sales ban.
• Lawyers throw monkey dung at each other for months.
• Consumers are hurt because Apple takes things off the market and/or cripples them.
• Masimo customers are hurt because all the company's money goes to lawyers rather than their core customers.

Do you know who I feel sorry for here? Casio and Garmin lurking in a shadow in the dark corner wondering when someone will give them some attention.

The actual timeline:

• Massimo has been a telehealth company for years
• Apple and Massimo had discussed using tech that Massimo has had in their telehealth devices since 2012
• Apple pulls out of deal but goes ahead with using the tech anyway
• Massimo goes ahead with its own consumer push, acquiring brands to buy into retail channels while suing Apple for the above
• Massimo actually gets a W with the suing, but maybe not so much with the watch they introduced
• Rabid typical Apple fan reinterprets the story to suit their rabid Apple fan narrative

I'm actually amazed B&W hasn't been deleted from the Store, if this was back in the Jobs days they would have absolutely been that petty

 

[Pezimak]

"amount to little more than an indisputably adjudicated infringer requesting permission to continue infringing the asserted patents."

Pretty much yes, big companies steal like that as it’s cheaper than licensing I’d imagine. But you risk ending up in court like this with sales bans.

What is most annoying is that I’ve found the oxygen sensor to be pretty much totally useless, it isn’t very good at tracking you during workouts, and I’ve seen many others say that too.

 

[seggy]

"amount to little more than an indisputably adjudicated infringer requesting permission to continue infringing the asserted patents."

Pretty much yes, big companies steal like that as it’s cheaper than licensing I’d imagine. But you risk ending up in court like this with sales bans.

What is most annoying is that I’ve found the oxygen sensor to be pretty much totally useless, it isn’t very good at tracking you during workouts, and I’ve seen many others say that too.

Yeah it's most likely the implementation on the Watch since the tech is actually used medically

 

[Pezimak]

Yeah it's most likely the implementation on the Watch since the tech is actually used medically

I await to see if any blood pressure sensor they come up with works too, every single place you have it taken, including home use ones, all use an airbag, but rumours state Apple had come up with something else using algorithms, so will be interesting to see how well that works.

 

[yabeweb]

People who shout the loudest aren’t always right. They are the people you remember though. They are also usually the people who look stupidest when found out to be wrong.

agree on that part, Apple should stop kicking and screaming, they are not right!

 

[Dremmel]

What I would most like to see from Apple in 2024 is ... integrity. Stop stealing stuff. Stop bullying small companies. Treat developers fairly.

 

[Shadowcatz]

Miasiomo is NOT a watch company. They make medical instruments, things used in hospitals. They are not a small company at all. This is not about a competing watch. It is about the technology used to turn reflected light into a blood O2 saturation number.

This article seems relevant to your post

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/apple-lawsuits-say-health-monitoring-company-masimo-copied-apple-watch-2022-10-20/

Apple is also suing Masimo for stealing some of their Apple Watch ideas, while doing discovery for the case Masimo has against Apple.
So it doesn't matter if Masimo is or is not a watch company, they are or trying to break into that market and potentially used information they got thru their court case to do it.

 

[BobVB]

Very good (and accurate) list, but missing the first bullet point

• Masimo makes medical devices using patented technology (which Apple is found by an authoritative body to have infringed upon to make its watch)

Generally agree that such disputes are bad for consumers. In an ideal world, consumers should be allowed to freely license all patents and copyrights without cost. Free cinemas, concerts, and sporting events for the masses!

But the devil is in the details. The basic patent for digital oximeters expired in 2008. Apple had been working on their sensor for a number of years with its first release in an Apple watch in 2020. Masimo filed their pretty vague patent in 2019 - after the Apple sensors were already being manufactured for use in the 2020 watch. The Masimo patent always uses pictures of their sensor on a finger, mentions in the body of text that they might have a wrist sensor for use with neonates, and then just adds a hand waving statement in their final summation of the how it could be used in exercising, etc.

Not quite a patent troll, but they knew that they were patenting already developed tech by Apple.

 

[nathansz]

Rabid typical Apple fan reinterprets the story to suit their rabid Apple fan narrative

There are a surprising number of people on these forums that seem to truly believe Apple can do no wrong

It could come out that they were making watch bands from human skin and they would be applauded for their innovative use of luxury materials

 

[1129846]

But the devil is in the details. The basic patent for digital oximeters expired in 2008. Apple had been working on their sensor for a number of years with its first release in an Apple watch in 2020. Masimo filed their pretty vague patent in 2019 - after the Apple sensors were already being manufactured for use in the 2020 watch. The Masimo patent always uses pictures of their sensor on a finger, mentions in the body of text that they might have a wrist sensor for use with neonates, and then just adds a hand waving statement in their final summation of the how it could be used in exercising, etc.

Not quite a patent troll, but they knew that they were patenting already developed tech by Apple.

All that really says is both were working on the tech at the same time and Massimo made the key break threw first and you mix that with Apple pouching key employees from Massimo means Apple can not use the defense they came up with it on their own as Apple own progress was being made by Massimo former employers who would of had in their heads progress that Massimo had made so it not as much as Apple came up with it their own.

That trade secrets part hurts Apple defense.

Massimo knowing Apple was working on it or suspected it meant they might of advanced their plans faster to beat Apple to a completed product as they knew if Apple got it first Apple would sue to snot out of them and then know that the rabid Apple fans would back Apple 100%.

 

[laptech]

The pause on the ban should have never happened in my opinion because it would allow Apple to offload as many of the infringing stock of watches ASAP so if and when Apple is found guilty of infringing on Masimo patents, Apple will have none of the infrigning watches in stock thereby eliminating the potential problem of having watch stock they would not be able to shift.

Apple is using the appeal system as a way to offload the affected watches so it is not left holding onto millions of $$$ worth of stock it cannot shift. The ITC will appeal against Apple's pause ban, Apple will appeal again requesting that whilst the appeal process is continuing they must be allowed to carry on selling the affected watches. The ITC will again appeal and on the merry-go-round it goes until Apple has sold off all the affected watches which Apple will then stop appealing and allow the full court case to take place.

Why do it like this? well, Apple do not want to get stuck with the potential situation of having two financial hits against them, one being millions of $$$ of affected stock they would not be able to shift and two, paying a fine. If Apple keep on appealing the way they have been doing, it would allow them to offload all the affected watches thus eliminating one of the two financial hits.

Edit: Replaced the word iphone with watches. A silly mistake I made.

 

[MysteriousStain]

A weak and unconvincing case….first FineWoven and now this!

 

[FlyingDutch]

Ah yeah so we have the following timeline.

• Apple makes watch.
• Masimo tries to launch competing watch which no one even hears about.
• Apple sues Masimo for patent violation for the watch archetype.
• Masimo stock and value tanks.
• Masimo executives switch their business model to patent litigation with an eye on unrealistically large demands on royalties.
• Masimo sues Apple for a minor and vague technical infringement and gets a sales ban.
• Lawyers throw monkey dung at each other for months.
• Consumers are hurt because Apple takes things off the market and/or cripples them.
• Masimo customers are hurt because all the company's money goes to lawyers rather than their core customers.

Do you know who I feel sorry for here? Casio and Garmin lurking in a shadow in the dark corner wondering when someone will give them some attention.

I don’t really think Casio and Garming are in the same market of Apple Watch

Can we complain about the ITC?

They are taking that as a personal issue

The irony in all this is that only a very tiny percentage of Apple Watch users even care about blood oxygen measurements on it.

Almost zero I would add. But once you have it, you are not going to accept it being disabled

That hasn't been found. What has been found is that the majority of Masimo's patents for this are invalid, and the remaining are still to be determined.


As for the article, did anyone expect the government to go "Oh nevermind, we were wrong!"?

Apple not trying to settle the dispute is telling me something… they really think they can win this

 

[FlyingDutch]

The pause on the ban should have never happened in my opinion because it would allow Apple to offload as many of the infringing stock of iphones ASAP so if and when Apple is found guilty of infringing on Masimo patents, Apple will have none of the infrigning iphones in stock thereby eliminating the potential problem of having iphone stock they would not be able to shift.

Apple is using the appeal system as a way to offload the affected iphones so it is not left holding onto millions of $$$ worth of stock it cannot shift. The ITC will appeal against Apple's pause ban, Apple will appeal again requesting that whilst the appeal process is continuing they must be allowed to carry on selling the affected iphones. The ITC will again appeal and on the merry-go-round it goes until Apple has sold off all the affected iphones which Apple will then stop appealing and allow the full court case to take place.

Why do it like this? well, Apple do not want to get stuck with the potential situation of having two financial hits against them, one being millions of $$$ of affected stock they would not be able to shift and two, paying a fine. If Apple keep on appealing the way they have been doing, it would allow them to offload all the affected iphones thus eliminating one of the two financial hits.

Slow down on your hate, dude. We are not even speaking about iPhones here 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

[laptech]

Slow down on your hate, dude. We are not even speaking about iPhones here 🤦🏻‍♂️

Ooppps, a silly mistake. I was reading a thread about iphones and thus had iphones in my head whilst writing my post. I will now go edit my post

 

[FlyingDutch]

I think the poster you are criticising is right.

It's a low accuracy, low precision measurement. This is fine for casual indication but in circumstances where a medical decision might need to be made, it's probably not a great idea to rely on it.

My own data shows the sheer range of values and the outlying measurements.

Note that I'm in perfect health, can run 10km easy and climb up mountains (up to 5500m) on a regular basis and measure a consistent 98-100% on proper kit.


View attachment 2335149

Absolutely agree with you. I don’t have such a big variation, but the device is far from being accurate. In actual medical field there is a huge difference from a 92% and a 97%, for instance.

 

[FlyingDutch]

except masimo doesn't just make watches. they make stand alone medical equipment, including blood ox monitors.

And they should keep doing that, instead of acting as a patent troll. They are not even competing in the same market. Apple Watch isn’t stealing any sales from them.

 

[laptech]

Absolutely agree with you. I don’t have such a big variation, but the device is far from being accurate. In actual medical field there is a huge difference from a 92% and a 97%, for instance.

I do believe when the feature of the watch was released, Apple released documentation that stated it would never act as a 'proper' medical device but a device that would give the wearer at least some indication that something could be wrong and therefore to seek further medical advice. 'A little bit of something is better than nothing' I suppose.

 

[sziehr]

This to me is a case of apple playing chicken with the legal system to save money since there in house council office is well staffed and a sunk cost. The reality is they will need to just buy the IP license the IP or buy the damn company hostile or not and end this. The apple war chest is very strong, and they must defend against IP taggers on, and thats a real thing and could kill them, however in this case I suspect they know it is real, and are just trying to get any W to help with the settlement amount

 

[FlyingDutch]

cant. The company is a major medical device company. Not a patent troll. It is why the US government and ITC arent letting this slide. Apple Stole tech from a major medical company. ANd is refusing to negotiate with them.

Apple stole tech from a company who is NEEDED by the US medical field. And the medical fields of other countries. It would be better to label Massimo as a necessary company and apple as a consumer but non necessary company.



Thats the thing. MASIMO spent the money to develop this hardware and make it reliable and to the strict standards of the Medical Device requirements from the US gov. ITS NOT FAIR that apple is not PAYING up for the technology they basically stole. APPLE CAN PAY and is refusing to do so.

Except the dispute is about an algorithm, not hardware, so Apple didn’t steal any hardware from Masimo. No one is saying Masimo is a patent troll, but for sure they are acting like one in this.

 

[FlyingDutch]

I have the O2 sensor complication on my infographic screen. I monitor blood ox while I sleep.

I really hope you don’t rely on it

 

[I7guy]

The pause on the ban should have never happened in my opinion because it would allow Apple to offload as many of the infringing stock of watches ASAP so if and when Apple is found guilty of infringing on Masimo patents, Apple will have none of the infrigning watches in stock thereby eliminating the potential problem of having watch stock they would not be able to shift.

Apple is using the appeal system as a way to offload the affected watches so it is not left holding onto millions of $$$ worth of stock it cannot shift. The ITC will appeal against Apple's pause ban, Apple will appeal again requesting that whilst the appeal process is continuing they must be allowed to carry on selling the affected watches. The ITC will again appeal and on the merry-go-round it goes until Apple has sold off all the affected watches which Apple will then stop appealing and allow the full court case to take place.

Why do it like this? well, Apple do not want to get stuck with the potential situation of having two financial hits against them, one being millions of $$$ of affected stock they would not be able to shift and two, paying a fine. If Apple keep on appealing the way they have been doing, it would allow them to offload all the affected watches thus eliminating one of the two financial hits.

Edit: Replaced the word iphone with watches. A silly mistake I made.

There is a reason apple pays its attorneys $1B a year…so they can legally use the judicial system to its benefits. The same as every other corporation and citizen.

 

[1129846]

There is a reason apple pays its attorneys $1B a year…so they can legally use the judicial system to its benefits. The same as every other corporation and citizen.

Which more speaks to massive problems with our legal system that allows the massive abuse wiht the money to tie things up in courts.

 

[nathansz]

Which more speaks to massive problems with our legal system that allows the massive abuse wiht the money to tie things up in courts.

Is it the legal system or the economic system that allows such concentrations of wealth that some entities are able to game the legal system to their advantage over others?

 

[1129846]

Is it the legal system or the economic system that allows such concentrations of wealth that some entities are able to game the legal system to their advantage over others?

both in my book.