iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

[RidleyGriff]

1. Apple doesn’t make DoubleTwist.
2. Pre works with drag&drop due to its OS, not due to Apple’s technical merit. You can plug a Pre into a FreeDOS system and still put things on it.
3. iTunes used to work with the Pre via an iPod simulation by the Pre. Apple broke that intentionally. That sounds like anti-competitive to me and telling people “You can’t use iTunes to sync if you don’t use our hardware."

Anti-competitive doesn't mean what you think it means.

It would be anti-competitive if, say, putting one's music files in iTunes made it impossible to then use them on a Pre.

That's not the case here. Your files are still yours to do with as you please. And in fact, you can still sync with iTunes (using DoubleTwist and other XML solutions).

 

[peestandingup]

Oh, man, I remember a time when Apple was this cute and nice underdog that produced the best technology they could. I believe they were called “Apple Computer”. Now they are so money-hungry, acting like crap (see also the problem they created by not supporting Ogg Theora in Safari) and trying to stifle competition in any way they can.

I remember too. Wasnt that long ago actually. I've been using Macs since the original iMac in the late 90s & can remember when Apple played MUCH nicer about stuff like this & just wanted to build the best stuff they could that would work for the most people (and they did).

Somewhere along the way though (well after the iPod phenomenon), they got super greedy & slowly started pulling shenanigans like this. They do it all the time now & I dont like it at all. They still make great products, but I kinda hate what they've become. I always thought that if Apple Computer had released the iPhone instead of Apple Inc, they would have sold it unlocked free & clear to use with any carrier you wanted.

Anyways, Apple is still very much an underdog (they're actually losing desktop market share), so IMO they need to act like it & stop with all the horse sh*t. They're getting a bit too big for for britches again & getting a big head just like they did in the mid 80s & it'll end up biting them in the a$$ again.

I can't believe the fanboys on this forum. Let's get this straight: I've got a Mac desktop, a Mac laptop (and I update each every two years), I've got a apple cinema display on my windows machine (have to use Windows for work), an ipod, an iPod touch, and an iPod shuffle.

Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Apple products. Horror of horrors, I just bought a Palm Pre. Gasp . . . I guess I'm a heretic. I believe it is a superior operating system. I say that as a huge iPhone fan. But it is a great OS and I believe that Apple will be adding Pre features soon. When it comes to great technology, I'm agnostic as I believe everyone with a brain should be.
Given that all of my media libraries are on iTunes, why do this to Apple fans like me? Oh, I know why - b/c Steve Jobs is mad at John Rubenstien for going to work for Palm, and everyone knows you don't cross Steve Jobs. But really, was this necessary? All it does it is *** off Mac users and iTunes users that happens to like the Pre as a phone while still loving other Apple products. All it does is sour an Apple fan like me who has been telling people for years that Apple is nothing like Microsoft, etc.

Wow. Huge step backward, Apple. It was petty and unnecessary.

I feel the same way & am very similar to what you posted (long time Mac users with a Pre). Why should I have to use an iPhone or an iPod to sync with iTunes with my Mac?? I mean, do I have to eat, breathe & sleep everything Apple these days in order to get that seamless experience?? No, they just set it up that way now because Apple has its hand in so many businesses now.

I almost feel like if I'm not using my Mac with all of Apple's other accessories (iPods, iPhones, AppleTVs etc), then its almost pointless to use a Mac at all because they're going out of their way to make it difficult to use any other media products with it.

If Apple produced their own line of digital cameras, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd eventually drop support for other 3rd party cameras in iPhoto. Its really no different than what they're doing now with iTunes.

 

[Goona]

Posts supporting Palm show why the world is messed up. A company can't even think of developing something that is popular without the people throwing out words like anticompetitive, monopoly, or calling for the government to fine them. Apple develops iTunes for their iPods and iPhones, it becomes popular. Other companies like RIM go the proper rout and develop software to sync with iTunes, meanwhile we have Palm coming around to do a hack job making the Pre to act like it's an iPod. I can't believe a company can actually endorse and support something like this. Then we had others calling for Apple to be fined for closing this dubious gap. No wonder the world is in this shape.

 

[nagromme]

When Apple locks out competitors you hail them...

But what would have happened if Microsoft had locked out anything related to Apple? You would have cried 'anticompetitive actions' so loudly that earth would have spun out of it's orbit...

It's kinda incredible that Apple locking out apps from it's app store (at will) and stuff like this is, according to you guys, a good thing.

No company has EVER been as anticompetitive as Apple.
I TRULY regret buying my iMac as you guys make me look like you zealots.

Firstly, the XML route is still available for Pre/iTunes compatibility. Apple closed down a hack, but the main door to iTunes access is still as open as it always has been. It has limits, but it's what Palm should have used--and still can.

Secondly, the elephant in the room: Apple's approach doesn't ONLY have disadvantages. Those are are real, but the advantages are ALSO real, and they are huge. They stem from Apple designing all parts of a system together, so they work together as a user-centric whole.

Nobody else does that. It provides a great choice that we wouldn't have without Apple. People who think Apple should open everything to everyone and stop designing things as integrated systems are actually OPPOSING choice. You're saying everyone should be Microsoft. But I like Apple's business model better, even if it has its own downsides. Don't take that choice from me

Can anyone here honestly step forward and say that Apple's "closed" philosophy doesn't have some big BENEFITS for the consumer? It's not ONLY bad? People sound one-sided and it may be just trolling, but things aren't that simple.

(That's in reference to the general parrotting of "Apple is closed" cliches, not in reference to the Pre situation specifically. I don't care much HOW Pre users synch with iTunes, I'm just glad they can do so--once Palm does it the right way instead of the previous hack. I don't think Apple's lockout here helps consumers--but I don't think it hurts them as much as Palm's own bad choice of sync method.)

 

[pdjudd]

There is NO difference between what Apple is doing and what Microsoft has done. Microsoft forced people into using IE to browse the web, Apple forces people into using their hardware to be able to sync with iTunes. Apple made sure the Pre would not work. Sounds similar?

No. Microsoft utilized their huge (95+) percentage market share to force OEM's to accept terms that were ruled anti-competitive in order to deprive Netscape (and others) a business model. Under the OEM terms that MS strong-armed, nobody could engage in a legal business agreement with Netscape to distribute their software on MS system. Maybe this would be legal if MS didn;t have the marketshare they did, but that was what happened.

The only way that this would have any comparison would be if Apple prevented their software partenrs or their hardware partners from doing business with Palm or designing their OS so that the Palm would be unable to access the iTunes library XML. Or is Apple banned any and all syncing programs. This is not happening. Third party sync software is still being made for the Mac

My point is, no software should be tied to hardware unless required. And there is no technical requirement for iTunes to be tied to iPod and iPhone.

Thats just silly. Software has been tied to hardware for a long time. Even MS does that.

 

[dragossh]

Somewhere along the way though (well after the iPod phenomenon), they got super greedy & slowly started pulling shenanigans like this. They do it all the time now & I dont like it at all. They still make great products, but I kinda hate what they've become. I always thought that if Apple Computer had released the iPhone instead of Apple Inc, they would have sold it unlocked free & clear to use with any carrier you wanted.

They always wanted not to be The Big Blue. They always wanted not to be Microsoft. It’s kinda ironic how much they act like them these days.

Anyways, Apple is still very much an underdog (they're actually losing desktop market share), so IMO they need to act like it & stop with all the horse sh*t. They're getting a bit too big for for britches again & getting a big head just like they did in the mid 80s & it'll end up biting them in the a$$ again.

I sure hope that will happen. They are forgetting why Apple was established in the first place. Also, acting like ******s is a sure way to drop market share. Slowly, but steady.

Posts supporting Palm show why the world is messed up. […] No wonder the world is in this shape.

No, my friend, the world is in this shape because of people that do not stand up for what they want and accept governments and corporations screwing up with them.

 

[tmoore049]

so anybody with a pre an no longer use the most current itunes? while i realize logic may not entirely support this claim, but why does apple care so much considering you can run itunes on a pc, and the iphone itself supports microsoft exchange & office features? hardware licensing issues aside, why not charge palm, or pre users a premium to use itunes to sync rather than bar them altogether?

 

[Stargaze]

kinda disappointing but apple doesnt have to make their software compatible with anything but apple...

if they want to continue to "sync" with itunes.. Just like Jailbreaking... they will need to figure out how to work with the next version.

 

[schalkse]

No. Microsoft utilized their huge (95+) percentage market share to force OEM's to accept terms that were ruled anti-competitive in order to deprive Netscape (and others) a business model. Under the OEM terms that MS strong-armed, nobody could engage in a legal business agreement with Netscape to distribute their software on MS system. Maybe this would be legal if MS didn;t have the marketshare they did, but that was what happened.

The only way that this would have any comparison would be if Apple prevented their software partenrs or their hardware partners from doing business with Palm or designing their OS so that the Palm would be unable to access the iTunes library XML. Or is Apple banned any and all syncing programs. This is not happening. Third party sync software is still being made for the Mac


Thats just silly. Software has been tied to hardware for a long time. Even MS does that.

Could not have done a better job. Good post.

 

[dragossh]

No. Microsoft utilized their huge (95+) percentage market share to force OEM's to accept terms that were ruled anti-competitive in order to deprive Netscape (and others) a business model. Under the OEM terms that MS strong-armed, nobody could engage in a legal business agreement with Netscape to distribute their software on MS system. Maybe this would be legal if MS didn;t have the marketshare they did, but that was what happened.

Now we’re discussing details. Apple purposefully breaks syncing with a device just because you didn’t want to buy an iPhone. Not even Microsoft would do that.

Thats just silly. Software has been tied to hardware for a long time. Even MS does that.

Notice that “unless required.” Of course, I don’t expect iPhone OS to run on a Zune but iTunes should be in no way tied to iPod and iPhone. It’s just a media player.

 

[pdjudd]

so anybody with a pre an no longer use the most current itunes? correct

Correct

while i realize logic may not entirely support this claim, but why does apple care so much considering you can run itunes on a pc, and the iphone itself supports microsoft exchange & office features?

Because that kind of integration can be implied as "support". That implication can become a legal challenge unless its dealt with. Support is nice when it involves licenses integration because support is clearly defined. Apple licensed Activesync so there is a clear route of support. Apple does not have anything to do with the Pre and it's integration with iTunes and does not want to be privy in a technical support situation with a program that was noever intended to support a prodcut. That's why we say that Palm should have built their own program - so that support can exist where its intended. Apple doesn't want the overhead. With a seprate Palm sync app, Apple doesn't need to get involved in anyhting that doesn't invlive it's sync services framework. That support can be passed onto Palm

hardware licensing issues aside, why not charge palm, or pre users a premium to use itunes to sync rather than bar them altogether?

Because Apple does not want to? You cannot force one company to do business with another simply because you wish it were so.

 

[schalkse]

The entirety of your post was relentless propaganda but this is the cherry on top of the fib cake.

Lick my shiny cherry

 

[HiRez]

And in five days Palm will come out with a new firmware update to fix this problem...

Even if they do, it's not very good for their users. They need to get off their duffs and write their own music management and syncing software (otherwise known as "iTunes knockoff"). Telling their users to "transfer the music via USB" (in other words, manually finding and dragging files) isn't much of an alternative.

 

[Goona]

They always wanted not to be The Big Blue. They always wanted not to be Microsoft. It’s kinda ironic how much they act like them these days.



I sure hope that will happen. They are forgetting why Apple was established in the first place. Also, acting like ******s is a sure way to drop market share. Slowly, but steady.



No, my friend, the world is in this shape because of people that do not stand up for what they want and accept governments and corporations screwing up with them.

What about lazy companies who don't want to put in the time and effort like others are doing?

 

[Etnies419]

So what would happen if Apple continued to allow Pres to sync with iTunes with this vulnerability, and a bunch of Pre owners who aren't as good with technology as some of us call up Apple if there is a problem syncing their Pre with iTunes? Should Apple have to give support to Pre users if their device is having a problem?

 

[pdjudd]

Now we’re discussing details. Apple purposefully breaks syncing with a device just because you didn’t want to buy an iPhone. Not even Microsoft would do that.

*SIGH* Again, where has Apple done anything to prevent Palm from developing their own syncing application? Where has APple made a pubic statement that asays "Palm is not allowed to develop for Apple, they are banned from the developer program and are not allowed to use our development kit!"? Where is is stated in Apple's terms of service for their SDK that Palm cannot develop for Apple? Where has Apple modified OSX to alert users that they should be buying an iPhone and can never use the Pre? Why hasn't apple sued RIM for making a client program that accesses the XML file that iTunes generates? How in the heck can MarkSpace stay in business and not be sued???


The reality is nothing like this is going on and there is no evidence that it ever will. The only thing that happened is that Apple fixed a bug that Palm was exploiting. It has nothing to do with Apple being Ainti-cometitive - Palm never sought nor was granted any official licensing to utilize iTunes in any official way. Closed systems are not illegal. Heck, I remember back when Palms HotSync product was available for Macs, and Apple didn't do anything to stop them. Enough with the anti-competitive claims and the musings of Microsoft - they do not apply That has been demonstrated repeatedly. There is no anti competition because Palm hasn't tried to create a software to compete with Apple.

 

[peestandingup]

Can anyone here honestly step forward and say that Apple's "closed" philosophy doesn't have some big BENEFITS for the consumer? It's not ONLY bad? People sound one-sided and it may be just trolling, but things aren't that simple.

Being closed does indeed have its advantages. Thats why a lot of stuff works so well on a Mac. As Mac users, we all know that.

But there is such a thing as being too closed. There's a line & IMO Apple has been crossing that line for a while now.

 

[pdjudd]

What about lazy companies who don't want to put in the time and effort like others are doing?

They should hire someone else who is motivated - or just close shop since they probably won't be able to run a business full time.

 

[jive turkey]

Posts supporting Palm show why the world is messed up. A company can't even think of developing something that is popular without the people throwing out words like anticompetitive, monopoly, or calling for the government to fine them. Apple develops iTunes for their iPods and iPhones, it becomes popular. Other companies like RIM go the proper rout and develop software to sync with iTunes, meanwhile we have Palm coming around to do a hack job making the Pre to act like it's an iPod. I can't believe a company can actually endorse and support something like this. Then we had others calling for Apple to be fined for closing this dubious gap. No wonder the world is in this shape.

You are absolutely right. The "gimme" crowd won't be happy until all incentive for technological advancement is gone, and no one owns the right to anything. In free nations, Apple is the only entity that has any right to dictate how iTunes is used (this includes end users, who only have rights that are conferred to them by Apple). Sadly, people now think they have a "right" to anything they want, and it will eventually be the end of of all that is great about western civilization.

I hate to be blunt about it, but there is a word for the mentality that one company's work should be freely accessible to all who want to use it. That word is Communism.

 

[pdjudd]

But there is such a thing as being too closed. There's a line & IMO Apple has been crossing that line for a while now.

If Apple did, thats up to the courts to decide (not you) and as far as I can see, the last time someone tried to sue Apple for Anti-competitive behavior (Psystar) the case was dismissed.

 

[HiRez]

It is the same thing. Microsoft was trying to use their position in the market to force people to use their products. By locking out all 3rd party companies, how is Apple not doing the same?

Because those third parties are perfectly free to write their own music management and device syncing software. There's no restriction on that. Apple spent years of time and millions of dollars on developing and marketing iTunes, if they don't want to let others piggyback ont heir efforts, they have that right. And as I said, Apple is not blocking those companies in any way from creating their own competing solutions.

 

[MidiMonk]

You are absolutely right. The "gimme" crowd won't be happy until all incentive for technological advancement is gone, and no one owns the right to anything. In free nations, Apple is the only entity that has any right to dictate how iTunes is used (this includes end users, who only have rights that are conferred to them by Apple). Sadly, people now think they have a "right" to anything they want, and it will eventually be the end of of all that is great about western civilization.

I hate to be blunt about it, but there is a word for the mentality that one company's work should be freely accessible to all who want to use it. That word is Communism.

WTF, does Communism have to do with this thread ???

 

[dukebound85]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

thieves? of what?

poor move apple

 

[jive turkey]

Correct


Because that kind of integration can be implied as "support". That implication can become a legal challenge unless its dealt with. Support is nice when it involves licenses integration because support is clearly defined. Apple licensed Activesync so there is a clear route of support. Apple does not have anything to do with the Pre and it's integration with iTunes and does not want to be privy in a technical support situation with a program that was noever intended to support a prodcut. That's why we say that Palm should have built their own program - so that support can exist where its intended. Apple doesn't want the overhead. With a seprate Palm sync app, Apple doesn't need to get involved in anyhting that doesn't invlive it's sync services framework. That support can be passed onto Palm

What is interesting about this is, Palm wants the Pre to interact with iTunes. For iTunes to recognize the Pre, that means iTunes is actively engaging on its end due to signals sent from the Pre. For that reason, I can see Apple being against the idea if for no other reason than concern that Palm may gunk something up with iTunes, perhaps deleting purchased music, for instance. Don't think the end users wouldn't try to hold Apple responsible in some way for this and attempt to get some form restitution, even if it is just replacement of songs. It would be a hassle that neither Palm, nor anyone else, has the right to demand Apple deal with.

 

[peestandingup]

If Apple did, thats up to the courts to decide (not you) and as far as I can see, the last time someone tried to sue Apple for Anti-competitive behavior (Psystar) the case was dismissed.

True, I cant make them do anything. But I (and others) can speak with our wallets & never buy another Mac or Apple product again. I hate to do that, but if I think something is wrong, I don't have to support it.

I know I'm just one person, but I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way either. Every other Apple product besides the iPhone has stalled or is beginning to decline in sales/market share.