iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

[pdjudd]

Is there a right way Apple released for iTunes? allow 3rd party sync?

There are several third party sync programs and apple has published specifications on Sync Services as well as having the iTunes Library xml fully available to provide whatever syncing capabilities your device would need.

iTunes doesn't really make sense since there is already enough there (movies, applications, tv shows, etc) that will never work with other players due to Apple's contractual obligations with the rights owners. There never really was much point to having native sync support - it was going to be hobbled and there is little that Apple can do about it. That's why they have the specifications for Sync services published - so that Apps can nativly use Apple resources (address book, mail, safari, and even iTunes songs) to sync their products. Other companies have been doing this for years without Apple batting an eye - even with the iPhone out on the market. these guys are doing this the proper way. Palm did not. iTunes has always been a closed ecosystem. Apple hasn't let players in for years. That is their choice. Palm had no right to do this. THey never even attempted to get permission and be denied. They just though they could break in as if they owned the place.

Apple doesn't publish their framework for integration for iTunes. Who cares? All iTunes is is a front end GUI for Quicktime frameworks. All you need is the information on how the library is structured - Apple provides that.

Look, iTunes waned people about this last month. This is no surprise.

 

[clevin]

There are several third party programs and apple has published specifications on Sync Services as well as having the iTunes Library xml fully aviable to provide whatever syncing capabilities your device would need.

That's why they have the specifications for Sync services published - so that Apps can nativly use Apple resources (address book, mail, safari, and even iTunes songs) to sync their products. Other campanies have been doing this for years without Apple batting an eye - even with the iPhone out on the market.

Apple doesn't publish their framework for integration for iTunes. Who cares?

what other devices are using apple's released syncing method to sync music with iTunes?

and for your last sentence, yeah, I don't, but apparently some people do. and they happened to purchase music through iTMS. I sure hope they switch to amazon from now on tho, so they dont need to care about this neither, just like you and me.

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

Is there a right way Apple released for iTunes? allow 3rd party sync?

They allowed it for PMPs before Microsoft started PlaysForSure. And that synching involved those companies (being Rio and Creative) working with Apple for the synching, not Palm's back-handed route. Just like how Apple is working with Microsoft to provide Exchange support on Macs and iPhones, not making a back-handed hack into the system.

 

[clevin]

They allowed it for PMPs before Microsoft started PlaysForSure. And that synching involved those companies (being Rio and Creative) working with Apple for the synching, not Palm's back-handed route. Just like how Apple is working with Microsoft to provide Exchange support on Macs and iPhones, not making a back-handed hack into the system.

again, what PMP or smartphones are doing the "right" way now?

 

[reidme]

iPhone syncs with outlook and IE fav, I didn't see MS update software to break the sync.

Not the same thing at all. Apple wrote software to sync with the Outlook and IE databases. If Palm wrote software to sync with the iTunes database there would be no issue. In fact others HAVE written software that syncs to the iTunes database (e.g. DoubleTwist) and it still works.

Personally I think Apple's move to intentionally break Pre syncing was ill-considered, but you should get your analogies straight.

 

[kdarling]

Not the same thing at all. Apple wrote software to sync with the Outlook and IE databases.

To be exact, Apple licensed the Exchange ActiveSync protocol from Microsoft.

Microsoft has an open license policy for most/all of their protocols... meaning they don't keep any only to themselves. In this way, they've become world standards. Apple could take a lesson here.

(Apple didn't pay as much for ActiveSync as Google did. Google paid the higher license fee that allowed them to rename their version as GoogleSync.)

 

[reidme]

To be exact, Apple licensed the Exchange ActiveSync protocol from Microsoft.

I wasn't referring to Exchange, just syncing to Outlook data on a PC. Does that require a license too?

 

[kdarling]

I wasn't referring to Exchange, just syncing to Outlook data on a PC. Does that require a license too?

Oops, sorry. You're right. I mixed up your post with another about push

Microsoft even provides various interfaces to query Outlook data.

 

[Hugh]

Palm Pre and Apple iTunes

O.M.F.G!​

I have to laugh, to all the b*tching going on here and at Precentral.net about Apple blocking out the Pre. Everyone thinks this is Apple's fault. Well they did break the syncing. But didn't Palm take the quick way to make it sync with itunes? Read on.......

Palm did sneaky way to get the Pre to work with iTunes. Apple stated that future versions of iTunes could break this hack, use with caution.

Did Apple intend to break sync? Yeap, why not it's their software. Where does it say they have to support 3rd party hardware with iTunes (even though they do, if you go about it the right way (though XML).)?

But I can understand why Palm wanted to sync with iTunes. It's easy to use to the average user, it's plain and simple. The average user are not going to know how to drag and drop, as some of you have said.). Not much to iTunes really, just a nice way to play music though quicktime and keeping all your music, movies, videos and, TV shows together.

However Palm didn't want to play nice and make their own software to work with iTunes though XML. They took the cheap way out, made the ID look like a iPod. Does that look like an iPod to you (wait don't answer that, I already know the answer to that one.).

Also there is another thing I am finding hard to get my big fat head (might as well say it.) around it. Aren't the iPhone xxx in direct competition to Palm Pre. Again help me here Apple should help Palm get on iTunes...Why?

If you missed it I am all for supporting the Palm Pre supported by iTunes by making their own software work though XML. Going to another 3 party could be one option for them. But it would have to be somebody that is used on both Mac and PC. (Yes you window users can download iTunes to get it)). Like iTunes though XML. I mean they have all those Apple employees :::shakes head::: they should come up with something that will work with iTunes better.


Oh let's not forget about those loom and doom bringers saying 'If Apple doesn't do this' If Apples do this they are doomed. Apple isn't doom or signs of doom. You know all years of people telling me over the last years, Apple would have went out of business.

So what did we learn today? We learn that Apple was upset at Palm, because they didn't play with the rules well. Well Apple in responds by blocking the hack. Then Palm says Apple isn't playing fair,find a work around with another 3rd party, instead of writing their own software o sync iTunes though XML. (There that XML thing again. It must mean something.)



knowing every thing I typed will fall on deaf ears


Hugh

 

[kdarling]

Also there is another thing I am finding hard to get my big fat head (might as well say it.) around it. Aren't the iPhone xxx in direct competition to Palm Pre. Again help me here Apple should help Palm get on iTunes...Why?

A lot of Windows Mobile fans asked the same question about Microsoft licensing ActiveSync to Apple for the iPhone. Aren't they in direct competition? Why should Microsoft help Apple get the iPhone into businesses?

What it did, was affirm MS Exchange as a standard that even Apple had to bow to. Isn't that worth far more in the long run?

 

[reidme]

Then Palm says Apple isn't playing fair

I must have missed that, maybe you can provide a link to where Palm said that.

 

[Mikey B]

A lot of Windows Mobile fans asked the same question about Microsoft licensing ActiveSync to Apple for the iPhone. Aren't they in direct competition? Why should Microsoft help Apple get the iPhone into businesses?

What it did, was affirm MS Exchange as a standard that even Apple had to bow to. Isn't that worth far more in the long run?

I'm jumping in at the end of a thread so I may misunderstand your context, but, I wouldn't call MS licensing ActiveSync to Apple, and Apple allowing Pre users to sync their device with iTunes an apples to apples comparison.

It totally makes sense for MS to license ActiveSync, the amount of money it costs for a business to use Exchange is quite high. They may loose the WinMo phone sale, but what they gain more than washes that loss out. I'm just not sure a Pre on iTunes is quite the same. Sure, they may make money from songs and videos, but it's not close to guaranteed and may often never pay off. Many people use iTunes and rarely make any purchase from the iTunes Store. MS has a much bigger incentive to give an ActiveSync license to a competitor than Apple would have by allowing 3rd parties to sync with iTunes.

 

[SG1-1]

Interesting but not factual

Just to add NPR mentioned antitrust law this AM regarding this action.

flame on if you want, fact won't change because of individual's love for apple.

Apple is a mean company, plain and simple, iPhone syncs with outlook and IE fav, I didn't see MS update software to break the sync.

If you would have listed to the Whole broadcast, you would have heard that the discussion is that Apple was in it's rights to do this with there own "FREE" Software, And that talks of Lawsuits would not hold up.

If Folks think there is an Problem with Apple, Lets look at Microsoft Shall we.

1.)Why Doesn't Zune Market place sync with iPod? and iPhone? or Pre?

2.)Why Doesn't Microsoft Offer it's (FREE Software) to Mac Users? There is NONE Designed to Work with Mac's. Only Virtual methods.

3.Palm Pre Doesn't Sync with Microsoft's Market Place Zune Software. (FACT) Only Outlook and Of course Drag and drop but Not Directly to The Microsoft Marketplace. "Note I Said to the Market Place, Don't twist Words"

4.Users can use other Software Methods it is a Choice, Apple users Choose to use iTune's "Free Software" or Not, and other users may use it also within the confines of the software agreement.

Example: To Play and Catalog Music, Video, Audiobooks.
Never did apple say it Supports ALL HARDWARE .."NOT ALL HARDWARE" Only the GUARANTEE of Apple Hardware Only.
==============

P.S. MICROSOFT has it's Own Blocks on The Zune MarketPlace with the Zune
Just Like Apple Has With it's Hardware & Software Options, and I cant sync my iphone or ipod to Zune Marketplace Just as a Zune cant Sync with iTunes Directly. This is Consumer Choice and Consumer Option.
Yea sorry to say my daughter has a 1st Gen. 30 Zune given to her as a present, No Go, no sync with itunes.

Can we Say People Have A Double Standard against Apple??? SURE WE CAN!

It would be much different if Apple "Sold" iTunes Software" as a generic work on all hardware product, it is NOT SOLD and generously given away for free, Remember it's free to use.. FREE FREE FREE And it's Apples.

"Complain when there are no Alternate software Methods to Users, and then complain to the manufacture of the Hardware that did not think ahead to support there own hardware product with there own Software and then scab there competitors software thats not there's."

It's Ok When other Hardware Manufactures Produce there own software for there own products for syncing that's ok, Correct?

Forbid Apple gives there Software away for free (Both Windows Based And Mac Based to Boot)
Note: Microsoft Marketplace is WINDOWS ONLY PC's, No Mac Version without Other Virtual Software.

But then Folks Complain Apple won't permit an intrusion hack in there software from a competitor that was an obvious back door known by previous Apple Employees.

I See it this way, If Palm Pre designers can Hack through that iTunes Back door with Firmware Fooling Code, then this could be a serious problem for someone could write a code that could render all Apple itunes products useless and Bricked, So it is a Problem. Ok Maybe a bit farfetched but could happen"

Then every entitled Joe feels that there 3rd party NON APPLE Hardware Should Work with Apple's Own Designed "FREE" based Software.
PLEASE It's a Business Model.

And a Double Standard. Where is the Outrage about Microsoft's Windows Only Market Place Zune Software that wont Sync with ipod & iPhone and the Many other Hardware Out there? Also, ZUNE MarketPlace is coded for Windows based System's and Not Mac's... HUMM The Same.. But Different? "It is Not Different, it's a Business Model. Apple does it's thing, Microsoft does it's thing and Palm Just ..Well jumps on board without a ticket.

Well there you go, People have options but want to complain, Entertainment and Hypocrisy at it's best.

Palm needs to stop sitting on there hands and produce a Software package like all the others do (SYNC KITS), to support there Self Proclaimed iPhone Killer, Without using the Other Company's (APPLE's) Own R&D designed Software to Enhance there selling point's.

Again it is not illegal to have and Control Your Own Developed Software. Just because you give it away for free doesn't make you obligated to support every other Competitors Product out there.

Palm is just a leach trying to use this to there benefit, And it is making Palm look bad, Not Apple.

---
To Note: My Business Partner Purchased a Palm Pre, he loved it all for about a week until the Right side case of the phone near the lower part of the Body Split.
Needless to say, He returned it, and Purchased an iPhone 3GS.
---

I Wish Palm Well I don't dislike the company, but no one likes someone using there stuff without asking. Palm did to much taunting about iTunes Sync, and got what they deserve, I really believe if they kept the syncing to a low key with iTunes it would have not turned out like it did.

If Palm Really Want's to Compete with iTunes and the Apple Store, then they need to build there own infrastructure and invest the R&D and Money to call something there very own, but in a Rush they didn't.
This was a mistake, a big one on Palm's part.

Like Beating a dead horse with this, But it's been fun Reading.

 

[Tallest Skil]

^ And with that, let's end this nonsense.

 

[reidme]

Writing sync software is just so darn difficult, as are spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and fact-checking. Let's all take a nap.

 

[pdjudd]

what other devices are using apple's released syncing method to sync music with iTunes?

I can't tell what you are trying to ask here. But there are programs Like MarkSpace's Missing Sync that uses Sync Services. MarkSpace was actually recommended back before Sync Services took over iSync. They are the big guys that handle Blackberries, Palm devices (including the Pre), Symbian, iPhone (limited), Windows Mobile, Nokia, HTC, Sonly PSP. They talk about their useage of SyncServices in the PSP here. Here is some info on devices that used iSync - the predecessor to SyncServices. As you can see, support was kinda sketchy based on the device and how third party devices handled Apple's data.

Markspace is a great example of a company that uses SyncServices.

and for your last sentence, yeah, I don't, but apparently some people do. and they happened to purchase music through iTMS. I sure hope they switch to amazon from now on tho, so they dont need to care about this neither, just like you and me.

Bingo. Heres another thing. Now that iTunes sells DRM-free content, they can just get the AAC files right from the Mac Finder where iTunes downloads them from! They can even drag them out from itunes and make a copy of them.

 

[pdjudd]

^ And with that, let's end this nonsense.

I agree. I am sick and tired of repeating the same stuff over and over.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Apple has become so narrow minded they will hurt one end of their business (iTunes) trying to protect another (the iPhone). You would think they would encourage one and all to access and shop at the iTunes store.

Apple can not expect all potential customers to buy the iPhone, their market share will top out, then shrink due to competitors catching up technology wise. The reason Apple's market share will decline is due, once again, to their narrow mindedness, from their advertisement/marketing to their complete lack of enterprise support (the name MobleMe is laughable in my opinion). Here is where Palm and others come in and eat the pie and why Apple, due to its self imposed limitations, would benefit by allowing any phone or MP3 player to access the iTunes store.

However, every aspect of Apple's new direction demonstrates its leaders vision is limited, Apple will revert back to a niche and once again will become creative and competitive. The problem next time however, will be Apple's increased overhead in terms of staff (new larger campus) and the existence of their retail chain, will be more painful. Given the latter, you would think that alongside their successful iPhone, Apple would have expanded their hardware offerings at very aggressive competitive prices. No such luck.

Apple did a great job supporting developers to rapidly expand the iPhone's application and gaming offerings. Year after year the main business core is neglected. No push has been made for the crown jewel, Mac OS on "the" Mac. On the hardware side you would think the move to Intel, and 3rd party hardware manufacturing (face it, Macs are no more nor better than any other PC nowadays), would have resulted in a greatly expanded hardware choice and competitive pricing. I mean, Apple basically offers 3 desktop choices. Again, no such luck.

Apple does not bare all of the responsibility however. The biggest problem as I see it, is the tacit complicity of the media and above all the "fanboys". 12-18 month product refresh is ridiculous. For a company that brags about its "Design", a now 6+ year old Mac Pro tower is pathetic. Innovation is their favorite word, my God, the Mighty Mouse is a sad excuse for any input device.

To criticize Apple is not the same as attacking Apple. Constructive criticism is the best way to help Apple help us all, keeping its market diverse and vibrant. Apple prosperous. Any such luck?

You get my vote for best post on this subject. You covered it all. Cheers.

Apple is so vertically integrated that they try to either discourage anyone else from contributing to the platform by either driving them out of business or sucking them dry by taking 1/3 their profits right off the top while offering no other outlets or avenues for sales. They overcharge for basically generic PC clone hardware as if it were still the days of old and Motorola CPUs disguised as "uniqueness" or somehow "better" because it's not Intel and then zap their own customers again and again instead of trying to maximize their market by attracting as many newcomers as possible. They don't listen very well to customers feedback and don't provide timely updates, not even for security.

What is sad is that their good points are REALLY good, but the company could have large part of Microsoft's share by now if they weren't so "narrow minded", as you put it. With little competition in the areas of hardware to motivate them and the lion share of their profits coming from overpriced (thus high profit margin) hardware and no competition for hardware alone (different from OS competition), they can "get away with it" indefinitely, at least until a repeat of the late '90s happens all over again and threatens the company's existence. In short, Apple hasn't learned from past mistakes at all. They simply got lucky with a couple of hit products and a much needed update to the ailing OS9 from a different company. Who will save them next time it dries up and their minuscule market share has left for greener pastures? It doesn't take long to lose 6% market share and that's exactly where they will be once Snow-Leopard is released since over 1/3 of their existing market share will be abandoned (i.e. PPC machines). If they don't take steps to replace that share with big incentives, they will forever be a niche market and niches don't last forever. Vista was HORRIBLE and would have likely put Apple out of business if that had been their equivalent release. It hardly made a dent in Microsoft since they could bleed market share for a decade and still be in good shape.

 

[chrono1081]

What Palm did is unethical. Plain and simple. To everyone crying about Apple being meanies your WRONG and have no clue how the world of software works.

Palm paid NO MONEY for any type of licensing to use their hardware with Apples iTunes service. They hacked into it. (Illegal) For a large company like Palm to do that its pretty sad. Palm is the one that hurt its users by promising something they knew was not done the right way. The only people to point the finger at is Palm.



As far as everyone talking about "iTunes store profits" did anyone on this forum read the contracts apple has with record companies? I bet that is a big no. How do you know the contracts dont say "iTunes songs to be downloaded from iTunes to a computer then to an apple authorized device." Ever think of that? Its the same way when large companies manage software assets. Software can only be downloaded onto company computers, not loaded onto personal computers.

 

[LethalWolfe]

As far as everyone talking about "iTunes store profits" did anyone on this forum read the contracts apple has with record companies? I bet that is a big no. How do you know the contracts dont say "iTunes songs to be downloaded from iTunes to a computer then to an apple authorized device." Ever think of that? Its the same way when large companies manage software assets. Software can only be downloaded onto company computers, not loaded onto personal computers.

So you *did* read the contracts and you *did* see this clause? I bet that is a big no.


Lethal

 

[chrono1081]

So you *did* read the contracts and you *did* see this clause? I bet that is a big no.


Lethal

Of course I haven't read them. No one has that's my point. No one knows what could possibly be in those contracts but I'm pretty sure if your talking about downloaded music content its in there somewhere that it needs to be to an apple authorized device or else record companies will probably want fees for other devices that connect to iTunes and use their songs.

 

[Winni]

Good for Apple if this is true. They have no obligation to support the software compatibility of a non-licensing competitor.

The problem is that Apple is not licensing their iTunes-related stuff to anybody, so the Palm guys had to implement such a hack.

Apple hasn't lost enough lawsuits, yet. But eventually, even Mr Proprietary, aka Steve Jobs, will learn his lessons the hard and bitter way.

 

[Winni]

What Palm did is unethical. Plain and simple. To everyone crying about Apple being meanies your WRONG and have no clue how the world of software works.

What Palm did was the only option for them to provide a feature that their customers wanted, because your holy cow Apple does not license their proprietary crap.

And obviously you haven't yet noticed that the 1960's are over. Today's world of software demands open standards and interoperability -- things that Apple is even more afraid of than Microsoft ever was.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Of course I haven't read them. No one has that's my point. No one knows what could possibly be in those contracts but I'm pretty sure if your talking about downloaded music content its in there somewhere that it needs to be to an apple authorized device or else record companies will probably want fees for other devices that connect to iTunes and use their songs.

You don't know what could possibly be in the contracts but you are pretty sure what's in the contracts? And what you are pretty sure is in the contracts that you know nothing about just happens to prop up your opinion? Interesting...


Lethal

 

[chrono1081]

You don't know what could possibly be in the contracts but you are pretty sure what's in the contracts? And what you are pretty sure is in the contracts that you know nothing about just happens to prop up your opinion? Interesting...


Lethal

Obviously you are nothing more then a board troll constantly trying to twist words around. Google software licensing, read up on how most major companies go about licensing, and then get back to me.