iTunes 9 Breaks Palm Pre Syncing Once Again

[whooleytoo]

you two (and others) seem so sure that is what they are doing. so prove it. find and share with us, the 'line of code' (or probably lines) that specify search for, detect and block a Pre from syncing with itunes.

I'd love to post the code here, but you know how fussy Apple is about their IP...

You're absolutely right, I don't know for certain why compatibility is broken, nor does anyone else on this thread. I'm speculating based on Apple's likely motivations, as is everyone else here. There's no shortage of people on this thread spouting unwarranted certainties, myself included.

 

[madog]

I think I must be misunderstanding you. Are you actually saying Apple shouldn't be allowed to check what the hardware is before trying to sync to it?

Not that broad. Apple can check what they want all day, but I personally don't think it should limit other hardware to be used with iTunes to such a great extent. I don't know how they allow other devices to work with it "legally", but it is a free application that is included with all of their computers, is on many PCs, and essentially dominates the market because of the iPod/iPhone. Not that they can't do it, but that I don't think they should.

I don't think it's great what Palm is doing for the reasons you have mentioned, either.

 

[Mr. Gates]

Mr. Gates,

If you are so kind, please, post your home address on this forum. While your at it, turn off all security alarms and monitors. Inform your security guards that I will be coming around and to let me in without questions while driving my empty 18-wheeler to your front door. And, don't forget to leave your door unlocked.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do this. So, would you expect this from any company, not just Apple? I think not.

JEEEZ All I am saying is that its just a media player and letting other people without Apple hardware use it isn't going to anything but expose more people to Apple and that is a good thing. Everybody gets SO Defensive on this site.

 

[HLdan]

You see, to prevent Palm from syncing is not the goal. The goal is to disrupt the harmony of Pre owners and spoil the ownership experience. Apple wants Pre owners to regret buying it and regret not going with the iPhone....which just works.

This whole post is ridiculous, that would be pointless of Apple to do that when they have the dominant market share, they are not trying to kill off the Palm.

 

[whooleytoo]

So if the iTunes Music Store has produced 3 billion in revenue, as you stated, they've still lost money. There's no way that iTunes has cost them less than 3 billion to keep going for 6 years.

I've no idea how much it costs to run. I just don't think Apple would run such a massively scalable business as a loss-leader; when (for instance if someone bought music on iTunes on a PC and used another music player) they get no revenue in return.

(Also, that figure isn't all-inclusive, that's song revenue only).

 

[rxse7en]

JEEEZ All I am saying is that its just a media player and letting other people without Apple hardware use it isn't going to anything but expose more people to Apple and that is a good thing. Everybody gets SO Defensive on this site.

Except for the fact that the tiny amount of media that a Pre user may potentially buy does not outweigh the loss in Apple hardware sales.

 

[agbot]

How does this security hole work? If someone malicious has physical access to your machine in order to plug a USB device in, you have bigger problems. I don't buy the security argument.

I wouldn't call it "security", but if, say, I'm a software developer who maintains some proprietary database of media files, I wouldn't want some third party masquerading as an authorized device syncing data in ways that I don't have direct control over. Could this third party device possibly corrupt the database? I have no idea, and what's my motivation to allow them to even present the possibility? Isn't my first (and only?) priority to make sure my own software works and to do all I can to maintain the integrity of the data?

This all sounds like a nice rational cover story, but it still doesn't mean Apple just wanted smack Palm around for brazenly and publicly flaunting their iTunes syncing hack.

 

[pondosinatra]

The iTunes 9 'application' (great another inconsistent interface) looking like a webpage equals EPIC FAIL!

 

[iLeoMarc]

1 cent? Apple's gross cut is more like 30-35 cents, which on $8.5 billion sales (songs only, not including movies) is nearly $3 billion in revenue. You won't see Steve Jobs in the queue for the homeless shelter for some time yet..

Wrong. Looking at Apple's current 10Q you can clearly see that "Other music related products and services (d)" has a sales of 3,018 million for the past 9 months ended on June 27, 2009. This section includes music, movies, tv, applications, iPod services and Apple-branded and 3rd party iPod accessories.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

you two (and others) seem so sure that is what they are doing. so prove it. find and share with us, the 'line of code' (or probably lines) that specify search for, detect and block a Pre from syncing with itunes.

Umm do you understand anything about programing there. To do what you are demanding it would require the source code. Once it has been compiled it is in machine language (010011001....) Apple does not provide the source code so I could go go though and find the If...Then statement that is doing the check.

Chances are good it is a simple If then statement in the code that is running the check something like. All it takes to break it is figure out what Palm is doing then write a simple If then statement to break it.

 

[Kludge420]

Apple can hardly actively block something they never supported in the first place. As far as APple is concerned, this is closing a security hole to block a hacker.

"Apple can hardly actively block something they never supported in the first place."
Why not? They do it now. Are you saying because they didn't do something in the past they can't do it now? How does that make any logical sense? I've never jumped out of an airplane does not mean I can't do it this very today? If I've never cooked food on a gas stove does it mean I'll starve to death if I move into a house with gas appliances?

And to directly address you repeated false assertion:
Are you are saying that you can hook up a Pre to iTunes and have it synch? Are you saying iTunes do not block non Apple products from synching with iTunes? Are you saying this article about Pre not synching with iTunes does not exist?

If you can answer "Yes" to those questions then you are correct, if you can not then you are wrong. As a programmer that has actually worked with the system I have first hand knowledge and that is what I am sharing with you. Apple actively blocks non-Apple equipment from synching with iTunes. This is not my opinion it is a fact.

You're welcome to your own opinions but you are not welcome to your own facts.

"As far as Apple is concerned..."
Exactly, as far as Apple is concerned, but not other people. That is Apples OPINION that it's a security hole not a fact. Palm has a different opinion. But let me help you out on this one.

You could argue that Pre using Apple's ID is a security problem much more easily than you could argue that anyone using iTunes to synch with any device is a security hole. But even then you have to very careful how you phrase the statement.

With that being said I'm not interested in your opinions if you are incapable of basing them on facts. Most of all if you are incapable of admitting your error then there is no reason to converse with you. It would be like trying to convince a Christian that evolution is real; pointless and futile.

Good day.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Not that broad. Apple can check what they want all day, but I personally don't think it should limit other hardware to be used with iTunes to such a great extent. I don't know how they allow other devices to work with it "legally", but it is a free application that is included with all of their computers, is on many PCs, and essentially dominates the market because of the iPod/iPhone. Not that they can't do it, but that I don't think they should.

I don't think it's great what Palm is doing for the reasons you have mentioned, either.

I am guessing that other devices sync to it without a problem because they went through the proper channels and paid Apple the money needed to get the licensing rights. This is Apple's IP and if you want to play with it, you need to pay for it.

Palm obviously isn't taking that approach, they are just trying to pretend they are Apple and thus get a free ride. It is very possible that Apple just doesn't like them and doesn't want their stuff talking to their IP. Well, it is their IP and they can do with it what they want.

If you have a nice movie collection in your house, but you won't let me in to watch them, should I break in and then cry when you throw me back out? Nope. Also I shouldn't go around telling people that I can get them movies from your collection either.

Could Palm make a device that looks exactly like an iPod (or whatever device they are mimicking) and thus preventing Apple from detecting them? Sure they can, and it would work and there would be nothing Apple could do to stop them. IF they made it look EXACTLY like one of the Apple devices. But it looks like the device isn't perfect, otherwise there would be NO way for Apple to detect the difference.

It is in Apple's interest, as others have pointed out, to keep out intruders because it does start the slippery slope thing.. one does, it, so does everyone else, etc... before you know it Apple is forced to maintain compatibility with old devices just to keep them happy. And then it becomes a support nightmare.

Palm has a few choices.
a) Give up on iTunes syncing
b) Make their device IDENTICAL to the iPod (or whichever device they are using)
c) License the interface from Apple
d) Write their own software

I know from experience that b) is VERY hard to do; not impossible mind you, but hard. AMD did it to Intel a long time ago. Ensoniq did it to Creative Labs. (those are the two I know did it) Sometimes it is easier to just pay the money and make everyone happy -- but if Apple still says, "No" then their choices become more limited.

 

[whooleytoo]

Wrong. Looking at Apple's current 10Q you can clearly see that "Other music related products and services (d)" has a sales of 3,018 million for the past 9 months ended on June 27, 2009. This section includes music, movies, tv, applications, iPod services and Apple-branded and 3rd party iPod accessories.

8.5b is the total sales figure; mentioned during yesterday's event.

 

[pdjudd]

Not that broad. Apple can check what they want all day, but I personally don't think it should limit other hardware to be used with iTunes to such a great extent.

Thats nice, but that is a decision for Apple to make - iTunes is closed source proprietary software that is owned by Apple. If you do not like it, one is free to create or use another device of their choosing. I can tell you though, it isn't going to be an ideal situation.

I don't know how they allow other devices to work with it "legally", but it is a free application that is included with all of their computers, is on many PCs, and essentially dominates the market because of the iPod/iPhone. Not that they can't do it, but that I don't think they should.

Linking hardware with software is how the computer industry was founded on - it happens all the time. Heck, even MS does it with the Zune. The popularity of the iPod gets people to seek out iTunes - even on Windows where you actively have to download it. Second, the only reason that iTunes supported other players was from a legitimately licensed (and now obsolete) API that companies licensed from Apple. Nowadays it's all legacy code back from it's origins as SoundJam

 

[Eddyisgreat]

Except for the fact that the tiny amount of media that a Pre user may potentially buy does not outweigh the loss in Apple hardware sales.

Best post of the year?

If you think AAPL should let PALM piggy back on itunes keep reading the above until you understand why it isn't a viable business strategy. If you have no intention on buying an iPod or an iPhone, Apple has no intention on keeping you happy. Get it?

 

[whooleytoo]

I wouldn't call it "security", but if, say, I'm a software developer who maintains some proprietary database of media files, I wouldn't want some third party masquerading as an authorized device syncing data in ways that I don't have direct control over. Could this third party device possibly corrupt the database? I have no idea, and what's my motivation to allow them to even present the possibility? Isn't my first (and only?) priority to make sure my own software works and to do all I can to maintain the integrity of the data?

This all sounds like a nice rational cover story, but it still doesn't mean Apple just wanted smack Palm around for brazenly and publicly flaunting their iTunes syncing hack.

Oh, even I admit Palm's "solution" is an ugly kludge; and wish it were done a better way.

Unfortunately it's not in companies' interests to interoperate when they're No. 1 in their industry. Great for them, not as good for those of us wanting tidy, compatible devices & services.

 

[iLeoMarc]

8.5b is the total sales figure; mentioned during yesterday's event.

Sorry when I read gross I assumed you meant year

 

[Kludge420]

I wouldn't call SyncServices a block

I don't care what YOU would call it. You are admitting in your opening statement that that is your OPINION. I don't care about your opinions because you have stated no facts.

I think Unicorns are awesome and if they could fly that would be the bestest ever; but that doesn't make 'em real and it certainly doesn't mean they should pilot aircraft.

Worst of all you have failed to admit you are wrong and instead are attempting to run the "truth blockade" but I will not allow you to do that.

I will not allow you to repeat a falsehood immediately after I have disproven it.

You are wrong. I have proven you wrong. Admit it or not but that is a fact.

Good day.

 

[pdjudd]

8.5b is the total sales figure; mentioned during yesterday's event.

That's items sold, not dollars earned.

 

[pdjudd]

I don't care what YOU would call it. You are admitting in your opening statement that that is your OPINION. I don't care about your opinions because you have stated no facts.

I think Unicorns are awesome and if they could fly that would be the bestest ever; but that doesn't make 'em real and it certainly doesn't mean they should pilot aircraft.

Worst of all you have failed to admit you are wrong and instead are attempting to run the "truth blockade" but I will not allow you to do that.

I will not allow you to repeat a falsehood immediately after I have disproven it.

You are wrong. I have proven you wrong. Admit it or not but that is a fact.

Good day.

Sync Services is an Apple designed and documented service that has been available for years that actually pre-dates the iPhone (its the successor to iSync). Heck, its built in to the OS and is designed for teh purpose that you want. You are calling it a block, however your definition of a block is flawed. You have proved nothing.

 

[jovanboi]

I don't see what all the hullabaloo is over this syncing. Technically, can't you just drag and drop the music to the Pre...? It works for me quite nicely. Don't see why that would be so difficult for people to do, as we do it with USB flash drives all the time.

 

[nzoMD]

who cares if it syncs..

honestly, the pre only has 8GB. Why would I want to sync my media to an 8GB device? Most people have WAY more than 8GB of music...

With any 8GB device, you have to be selective on what media you transfer over. You can't just tell your system to sync up because there wont be enough room. The pre can still transfer media directly from itunes.

 

[Kludge420]

I am guessing that other devices sync to it without a problem...

Your entire post is based on your guess. What's a guess? Is a guess a fact? Or is it your opinion on what reality should be. You may be right but it's a logical fallacy to base your opinion on a guess.

Why not look it up first and see if you are correct before building an entire belief system based on no actual knowledge?

 

[Cleverboy]

Also, with the Pre "spoofing" the Apple ID to work with iTunes, what I was trying to say is that Apple shouldn't be allowed to make that a requirement for iTunes. Sure they can at this point, but again they aren't the underdogs in this area anymore. They can get away with that sort of thing with computers because their competitors are so huge, but that's not the case with Apple's other products.

Once a case is brought up or someone important starts seeing this as a problem it would be awful for Apple, and they should just allow other devices to work with it rather than "requiring" methods against USB specs. iTunes has become far more than just their application to sync/play music.

So... it sounds like you're saying that there should be an anti-dog-eat-dog rule proposed in congress, forbidding "destructive competition" by companies in certain fields... eliminating competition and forcing them to be interoperable and use each other's resources (so that NO company has an advantage no matter how hard they work, or how much they've done for consumers). Or, better... forces the railroad... er, corporation with the most seniority to get all the business in a particular field (as competition hurts consumers).

Seriously. There is NO LOCK-IN. Customers can come and go from iTunes as they please. If there was a better deal, I'd jump ship in a hot second. I like polish though.

~ CB

 

[*LTD*]

I was trying to point out that the consumer does not care who makes what phone. They just want it to work with the main peice of software with out having to use a huge amount of 3rd party software.

Ok. I'm quite confident that the Pre works with Palm's "main piece of software", whatever that might be.