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Ivybridge is cheaper
- Thread starter sonyisawesome
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OP has the point. They reduced price and took away dedicated GPU, which vastly outperformed Iris Pro. So how is the price really reduced? This GPU was worth more than 200$.
Baseline Late 2013 15" rMBP is inferior to baseline Early 2013 15" rMBP when it comes to graphics. It's not even a dispute. I would rather buy Early 2013 rather than Late 2013 15" rMBP.
Baseline Late 2013 15" rMBP is inferior to baseline Early 2013 15" rMBP when it comes to graphics. It's not even a dispute. I would rather buy Early 2013 rather than Late 2013 15" rMBP.
The issue at hand (as raised by the OP) was not whether graphically, the base Haswell is better than the Ivy Bridge. In fact, OP does not seem to even raise an issue. He simply opines that everyone should buy the Ivy Bridge because it is a "complete" computer and is cheaper than the Haswell. There are bold assumptions that are made in this statement - e.g. that everyone needs a dGPU (or would even value a dGPU), or that no one would value the increased battery life afforded by upgrading to the Haswell platform.
You seem to be doing the same thing.
If you don't want one then don't buy it. Simple as that.
It's one thing to know what you want in a computer...
[You and the OP seem to know this very clearly]
...but it is another thing to assume that everyone has the same needs in a computer as you.
There are people who would take the price cut (even if you can't accept this fact), regardless of how much the 650M is worth, for the increased battery life and marginally better CPU performance offered by the Haswell platform.
Yes, if. How many people actually need CUDA though? For many, if not most, they would be just as happy with the 2013 Iris Pro model even without the 650M/750M. The OP, however, is trying to say that there is no reason for anyone to want the 2013 model over the 2012, which is not true.
I agree and I would appreciate the option to add 650M or 750M to baseline 15" rMBP, but there isn't. And I don't need 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD so I'm not inclined to go for more expansive one. Therefore this generation is not for me.
I'll wait for next release with hopefully better iGPU or brought back dGPU since I'm not in a hurry.
As you said, everyone needs different thing. I've just stated that they said they've cut the price, but instead they just downgraded the laptop so the price is lower. It's two different things. If I tell you I decreased the price of bread in my bakery but at the same time I decrease the weight of each bread - do I really make the discount?
Again, this fails to address the inadequacies of OP's reaching assumptions.
OP admitted to reading posts of people choosing to purchase an Ivy Bridge model over the Haswell for the reasons listed, following which, he created this thread to tell everyone on the forum that this is what we should all do.
This is the contention I have with the thread.
I agree with sonyisawesome for people, who need a dGPU. The 1600 dollar refurbished 2012 base rMBP is still a great product and the price is very good. It seems like a smart business move from Apple to push people with the need for a dedicated graphics card to the 16/512/750m/2600 model. But as long as the refurbished is available, its hard to justify to spend another 1000 for more Ram/CPU Power/TB2 etc., if the main interest is the dGPU.
And the situation is different in Europe. Right now there are no refurbished 13'' or 15'' rMBP available at the german apple store. And retailers best price for an ivy bridge 15'' rMBP 8/256 is 1800-1850€. Some retailers offer surprisingly high discounts for the new models. The late 2013 base model is available for 1789€ and the 2,3/512/16/750m model for 2310€. This is a much tougher choice and not a good sign, that a brand new model needs 12% discount to be somehow competitive.
I think, that Apple priced themselves out of the market for 15'' laptops here. Last years base model was a better deal in terms of performance/price. If you need now a dGPU, you must get a desktop pc on top or pay the 600€ upgrade. So a 13'' rMBP or a 13'' Macbook Air + desktop pc seems like the cheaper choice, if you need a dGPU.
And the situation is different in Europe. Right now there are no refurbished 13'' or 15'' rMBP available at the german apple store. And retailers best price for an ivy bridge 15'' rMBP 8/256 is 1800-1850€. Some retailers offer surprisingly high discounts for the new models. The late 2013 base model is available for 1789€ and the 2,3/512/16/750m model for 2310€. This is a much tougher choice and not a good sign, that a brand new model needs 12% discount to be somehow competitive.
I think, that Apple priced themselves out of the market for 15'' laptops here. Last years base model was a better deal in terms of performance/price. If you need now a dGPU, you must get a desktop pc on top or pay the 600€ upgrade. So a 13'' rMBP or a 13'' Macbook Air + desktop pc seems like the cheaper choice, if you need a dGPU.
Seams to be the case....I mean a few years ago I might even be fine with it but now so much stuff is driving towards GPU accelerated and unless intel can get their foot in the door like Nvidia and AMD it doesn't matter how good they are.Anything is better than base hawell models.
Well I'm not going to say people spend $1999 on a laptop to look at their facebook in pretty high resolution retina because it happens but in the past my friends who had 13" MBP's were either poor or in need of a basic computer while friends with the 15" were more power users that undoubtebly used the dGPU allot. I really like Iris Pro Graphics but I don't think its a dGPU killer, and no I don't think two GPU's or a dGPU makes a laptop "complete"...I lived off a 13" MBP for a while
In fairness, I'm the guy who agreed with your sentiment but also wondered if this is a troll post. How can I be defensive about Apple products if I explicitly stated I agree with your position?
As for your point being "logical," yes and no. Yes, most people would be better off, at least on a "bang for your buck" basis, with Ivy Bridge. But if someone doesn't care about graphics and does care about TB2, 802.11ac, or sequential reads and writes, then I can see paying for the base Haswell.
I personally am on the fence about which one I'll purchase, and random read-write benchmarks are probably what will decide it for me.
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100% disagree with you. What they did here was absolutely brilliant. Obnoxious to some informed buyers, but brilliant. They lowered the price, which makes it seem more affordable. They created a pricing structure that really encourages people to step up to the higher end model if they're interested in even one of the BTO upgrades.
From a pure marketing perspective, this was good stuff.
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Odds are darn good you'll end up selling more bread.
Fully agree with john123. And I strongly suspect their initial numbers will clearly reflect the popularity of the base high end 15" compared to the entry level one. Their clever pricing structure worked on me, and I suspect I'm not alone.
A lot of people make the argument that the iris pro is "just as good" as the 650m in some instances. While I don't refute that, I believe new technology should improve on old technology in ALL areas.
I didn't go with the new rmbp's for that reason. I wanted a dgpu but didn't want to pay the exorbitant premium for the top shelf model. Instead, I got a refurbished top shelf-model from 2012 for the same price as the new base model.
I didn't go with the new rmbp's for that reason. I wanted a dgpu but didn't want to pay the exorbitant premium for the top shelf model. Instead, I got a refurbished top shelf-model from 2012 for the same price as the new base model.
Nope. Depending on what you are looking for in a laptop, the OP is 100% correct.
A lot of people make the argument that the iris pro is "just as good" as the 650m in some instances. While I don't refute that, I believe new technology should improve on old technology in ALL areas.
I didn't go with the new rmbp's for that reason. I wanted a dgpu but didn't want to pay the exorbitant premium for the top shelf model. Instead, I got a refurbished top shelf-model from 2012 for the same price as the new base model.
The Haswell base 15" rMBP may be better in every day life use (5200 vs 4000) than an Ivybridge base 15" rMBP, but trying to say 5200 is just as good as GT650M is like putting lipstick on a pig. Load any decent game (SC2, D3) and a decent resolution (e.g. 1680x1050) and the difference is often 50% or more in fps.
Also for someone looking to use the machine a lot with an external monitor, the Ivybridge 15" rMBP will smoke the Haswell one since the GT650M is on by default (if external monitor is attached).
Fully agree with john123. And I strongly suspect their initial numbers will clearly reflect the popularity of the base high end 15" compared to the entry level one. Their clever pricing structure worked on me, and I suspect I'm not alone.
It is possible, that it works out in some markets, but the european market is saturated. Especially germany has really flat mac sales (under average) compared to other countries like Switzerland. It has been discussed in other threads, that macs seem overpriced in countries outside US due to currency fluctuation and high taxes. Why should the new price structure help sales, when people already vote with their wallet? I mean the upgrade costs 600 = 811$. And they killed the entry 15'' cMBP for 1700. So they basically raised the price for a 15'' Macbook with a dGPU by 900 = 1216$.
I'm sorry, but your argument does not convince me. I don't think it will work out: the unusual high discounts are an indication, that the new model is not selling well. The trick last year was far more subtle: if you added an SSD an RAM to the base 15 cMBP, it was cheaper to get a base rMBP. I wait a few more months with my next purchase, because expect a price drop next year (like the price drop of the 13'' rMBP this year).
To those defending everything Apple does, you apparently can't bring up the cMBP, even though your point is perfectly stated. The entry MBP increased in price 1216$, PLUS you no longer get a dGPU. That simple fact alone should be mindblowing to anyone who can look at things objectively.
Apple has simply given up the sub $2K(US$) 15" market . One has to accept that and buy a refurb cMBP/IB, or move on from apple if you want a sub $2K 15" laptop.
Its mental looking at Apple's prices for no dGPU on the 15" but then you look at other competitors who have always been cheaper and its even worse! They should have at least gave the option for SOME type of dGPU...maybe a 740M with 1GB of RAM on the lower end BTO option? Look at how the iMac's have their GPU's...it should have been that way...well there is always refurb options at least but still. Hey at least we got our 15" rMBP's with dGPU's while the price was right!
Apple fans have a notorious tasteless and awful habit of derailing serious discussion with joking comments and sarcasm in an attempt to discredit and straw man any legit, valid criticism of Apple's products.
The reality of the 15" Iris Pro MacBook Pro is that it's not as good as the previous base for graphics. And it's QUITE a decline in performance. Like 100% bad. And people would be led to believe that a 2013 would be the right way to go for price/performance.
The late 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro is the value to be had and if anyone's in the market for a machine under $2000, they should absolutely consider those models. In fact I might sell my 13" Classic and pay the extra to get the 15" Retina.
The reality of the 15" Iris Pro MacBook Pro is that it's not as good as the previous base for graphics. And it's QUITE a decline in performance. Like 100% bad. And people would be led to believe that a 2013 would be the right way to go for price/performance.
The late 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro is the value to be had and if anyone's in the market for a machine under $2000, they should absolutely consider those models. In fact I might sell my 13" Classic and pay the extra to get the 15" Retina.
I'm glad I bought when I did. Lots of people were recommending holding off for Haswell. Impatience turned out to be a virtue in this case
But hey, apparently it's great "marketing" by Apple.
I'm glad I bought when I did. Lots of people were recommending holding off for Haswell. Impatience turned out to be a virtue in this case
Yeah they all said wait for Haswell but I couldn't take my 13" cMBP anymore for video editing and I just went to best buy and bought it outright! When Apple announced the updated rMBP's my stomach dropped for 0.5 second (even like 4 months after purchase) but then I got online and saw the specs and was like "nope!".