Comparing the price point of a refurb to the price point of brand new is kind of silly. Wait until the store has some refurb haswells. I thought about buying a brand new ivy bridge model but there was only $100 difference. That was also silly, to me.
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Ivybridge is cheaper
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Comparing the price point of a refurb to the price point of brand new is kind of silly. Wait until the store has some refurb haswells. I thought about buying a brand new ivy bridge model but there was only $100 difference. That was also silly, to me.
It's not silly at all. You're talking about another 3 months, minimum, before Haswell refurbs will appearand probably more like 5 months. Moreover, there's precisely zero benefit to buying "new." This ain't some Daewoo TV with a 90 day warranty you're talking about here.
I disagree. Comparing a refurb price to a new price is always going to be less. Sure, it may be a better value but its comparing apples and oranges. What I meant by waiting for haswell refurbs is you can then truly compare the price point. Refurb is always cheaper then new and you cant claim a refurb is cheaper then new and make it sound like its shouldn't be. I think the error is that isn't the person I quoted. I don't know why it ended up that way.
I also disagree there is zero benefit to buying "new." I realize it is not a Daewoo TV but a refurb is a refurb. It was used by someone else. I may have OCD, but to me it makes a difference. I have had bad experiences with refurbished products. I don't care if its Apple or not. Also, it's older hardware and while they may be equivalent in performance, its still older hardware.
To expand on my statement. For each person its different. If you find it better for you to buy a refurb then by all means do so. I found it better for me to buy a new product.
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Of course the pricing will be less, but that doesn't mean inferior. Neither does "older"; as I and others on these forums have stated, for people looking at base configurations, the older configuration will often be better.
If I put a refurb and a non-refurb in front of you, and I asked you to tell me which was which without doing a serial number lookup or inspecting the box, you couldn't. The batteries are fresh; there are no signs whatsoever of wear and tear; etc.
Long long ago, I used to sell electronics on commission, so I have a lot of first-hand experience with refurbs. I always told customers to avoid them. But between how Apple handles theirs, the full one-year warranty, the ability to add AppleCare, and imperfect quality control on "new" products as it is, I have full faith and confidence in their refurb products.
In my opinionand that of other professionals, such as Rick Broida at CNETyou're letting a psychological hang-up around "newness" get the better of you.
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See my last line above. It addresses this statement head-on.
I don't mean to claim they are inferior. Its just my personal preference, based on my own experience, that I would rather buy new. This is an apple and oranges comparison but its still my experience... I worked in the auto repair field for over 20 years. When you buy a refurb alternator or starter or anything like that... 9 times out of 10 you will be replacing it soon after. You still get a good warranty. That doesn't matter. You can still replace it for free.. but it's inconvenient to do so.
Parts are only changed that are currently broken. You don't know if the guy did a lot of gaming or other work and ran the thing hot all the time. Last thing you want is to get your shiney "new" computer and have it repaired a couple weeks later. Scratches and other blemishes aren't part of the repair either, at least not to my knowledge. The bottom could be all scuffed up and its your brand new $1500 machine.
Again, if refurbs work for you then great. Go buy one. I prefer to buy new and it isn't because of some psychological hang up. When I am prepared to spend that kind of money then I want the best I can spend it on. I use to do open box items and floor models and refurbs too. They have never lasted as long as new for me. Never.
Actually, what you wrote sounds like an Apples and cars comparison. Far be it for me to convince you, but I'll respond for the sake of others who might be reading the discussion.
There are so many things that aren't in parallel here. First off, you don't generally get to drive a car off a lot for a couple weeks and take it back if you don't want it, only so the next guy can get a good deal on it. Occasionally, you do—those are demos—and they are priced accordingly.
Second, obviously, these are two different industries. What makes you think they're similar?
Third, most of the reasons why laptops go back has nothing to do with mechanical moving parts. A defective motherboard gets...a new motherboard. Not a refurbished one.
Fourth, you're not going in to buy a refurbished part. You're going in to buy a computer. If something went back to the shop for, say, a defective screen, that screen got replaced.
I could go on.
You realize that could happen just as easily with a new machine, right? There are hundreds of users who have reported on their refurb experiences, here and elsewhere. The track record with Apple products is exceptionally good. Again, you're letting fear and biases affect your judgment. That's fine if you make that choice, but I'm concerned for other users who read what you wrote.
Additionally, I think you do not realize that a refurb goes through a comprehensive checklist before being repackaged. If things don't pass muster, they get replaced too. As for "the guy" who's been gaming a lot, I ain't too worried about that, and others shouldn't be either.
Your knowledge is incorrect. The cases are like new.
See above; it is.
Aaaand you just demonstrated the psychological hang-up; insisting that "new" is the "best." For the reasons I have already explained, that does not necessarily hold.
Once again, you lack experience with Apple refurbs, and even if you did have it, it wouldn't matter. The folly of using anecdotal evidence to guide decision making when a larger pool of data exists is something they teach against in any elementary logic or statistics course. I have personal experience with one refurb. It happened to be good. Had it been bad, it wouldn't affect my decision making one iota, because I've done my homework on the aggregate success rates. That's the proper way to think about these sorts of decisions—logic, not gut.
Alright... Im not going to argue with you. I specifically stated that my comparison was "apples and oranges" meaning it was not one in the same. I was just giving you an example. You are correct in some areas, but others you didn't understand what I said. I'll leave it at that.
The op gave his opinion for everyone to just go buy a referb. I gave my opinion on why I don't want to and why others may not want to as well. You seem to be forcing your view on me and I don't think that's the correct thing to do. An opinion is neither right nor wrong. It's up to the individual to determine what is right or wrong for him/herself. For me, a new model was the way to go. For someone else, a refurb may be the way to go. Neither are wrong.
Looking at some of your other posts.. it seems that you are waiting for some reviews to determine whether to buy a Haswell or not. That means you are on the fence so to speak. Obviously, if you are on the fence then you see value in buying a new model vs. the older refurb. Yet you argue there is no value.
Im done with this argument. I gave my opinion and nothing more.
Ummm....
Yay reading!
But an opinion based on an incorrect understanding of the facts and psychological biases is a foolishly developed one. This isn't, "Do you like red or do you like blue?" This is a debate about value and reliability. Those things are not personal preferences; they are the subjects that have empirical evidence. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.
Once again, reading comprehension would have been really helpful here. I never said there is "no value" in the new models. The only thing I really care about is the disk I/O benchmarks. Base models, however, are a clear regression in graphics, and for many users, having that dGPU in their back pocketespecially at lower costoffers a vastly better value proposition.
Actually, you spouted off some incorrect facts about how refurbs are treated and impugned their reliability. That isn't offering an opinion. That's spreading misinformation. I'm glad to have been able to set the record straight.
This thread is just down right hilarious.(I am literally laughing my ass off from reading this) The forums goes down and all the built up bullshiit that usually plagues the forum just bursts out in a single thread.
It is not incorrect understanding of facts. Unless of course you think a refurb gets 100% parts change. In fact it does not. Value and reliability.... New is more valuable then refurb. Fact. If you have a brand new computer right now and a "brand new" refurb... which one has more monetary value? That's right, the brand new computer. Which one has more resale value 2 to 3 years from now? If you say the same, you are kidding yourself. Reliability is not necessarily the same. One has worn parts the other does not. Until you can prove that worn parts will last just as long as new parts, you are wrong. Yes, even electronic non moving parts wear over time. Heat is killer in electronics. You have no idea how the previous laptop was treated. Does it have the same warranty? Yeah, past the warranty which one is more likely to fail?
Did you not say this? "Moreover, there's precisely zero benefit to buying "new." " Maybe its semantics but I take "precisely zero benefit" to mean the same as no value in buying new.
I did not spout off incorrect facts. They only repair the parts that are currently broken. They do not rebuild the entire machine. If for instance the processor has 6 months life left, they wouldn't know it. They also wouldn't be replacing it at the time of the refurb process. Prove me otherwise.
Fascinating. Completely fascinating.
Wrong. You are confusing two different concepts: price and value.
Value is an individually derived characteristic. On the second-hand market, many people don't even ask if a machine was purchased new or refurbished. As a result, more often than not, you command a greater resale value from buying the refurb, thereby lowering your total cost of ownership. That would make the refurb a superior value.
I sell and buy computers every year. There's another thread on here asking about how many each of us has personally owned; my number of PowerBooks and MacBooks is at 19, and will make it to 20 later this month. I'd say I've got pretty good expertise on this issue.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. You continue to click your heels together three times and insist that, "IF IT CAME IN A SHINY WHITE BOX, IT MUST BE BETTER." Most refurbs have insignificant wear and tear. In fact, your odds are darn good that it was just an open box return. (Look at how many people in these threads are returning their computers for the tiniest of issues.) This is especially true if you're buying the most recent generation of a refurb. By definition, it can only be a few months old anyway. How is that not sinking in?
It sure does.
You misunderstood. I was talking about comparing like-versus-like models, not comparing across different models. Obviously, if there is one newer machine with kick-butt specs that doesn't have a refurb available yet, there is of course an argument for it to be purchased. Duh.
You alleged the refurbs are less reliable. In elementary logic, that's known as a claim without a warrant. Moreover, let's review what you originally stated:
That, sir, is an incorrect fact. It's patently false.
They do, however, run a full set of diagnostics prior to packaging up the machine for resale. You get a new outer shell and a new battery, a "full-burn" and testing to stress test the system (which is designed precisely to identify those components that may be soon to die). That last step is a level of rigor even new Macs don't have—which is why refurbs get such high ratings from third parties that don't have an axe to grind.
You yourself previously admitted you didn't even know the process Apple uses, and yet here you are, continuing to insist that refurb products can't be on par with new ones. Why? Because to believe that would be to believe that you were wrong and went off without incomplete information. I guess it's easier to stubbornly insist that you're right, eh?
Here are some great quotes from people who actually know what they're talking about:
"It’s a great way for somebody to purchase technology and not spend as much money,” said Everett Katzen of Springboard Media. “People shouldn’t be nervous about buying a pre-owned machine.” -- MacWorld, http://www.macworld.com/article/1163874/refurbished_mac_buying_guide.html
"Apple's exemplary refurbished policy and system, as we mentioned previously, mean you should start there if you want the best deals on iPhones, iPads, iPods, and other iDevices. Apple devices get the same warranty, case, and battery as the new stuff but can cost a whole lot less." -- Melanie Pinola, Lifehacker, http://lifehacker.com/5885492/when-should-i-buy-refurbished-electronics
"In effect, this Mac can be seen as a better purchase, because you know this Mac has been fully tested and certified." -- http://www.macinaminute.com/buying-a-mac-is-refurbished-a-good-idea
"However, when it comes to Apple products, I see no reason to choose anything but refurbs...Sure, but what's the catch? What do you give up by opting for refurbished Apple gear?
Nothing." -- Rick Broida, CNET, http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33153_...-apple-product-choose-refurbished-every-time/
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K dude, I bow to your superior refurb. Continue buying yours and I will continue buying new.