iWork '05 Productivity Suite?

[Wuddel]

Apple sucks and they exist only at Microsoft's discretion and there is nothing that Apple or any other entity on Earth can ever do about it.

Well some court's could totally smash MS in pieces but they don't have the guts to do it. If Apple is not relasing an office suite with more (yes MORE much more) functions including a real good spreadsheat and word processor and integration with Filemaker for an insanely cheap price, there is no way this thing could hit a critical mass. And they would have to release it for Windows too.

Well actually I think Apple won't make this fault, but release some MS Publisher-competitor with some writing functions. Something for writing simple texts, design greeting cards etc.

Lets see. Keynote was already a bummer. Only eye candy. Noting useful. I do not want productivity software from Apple.

 

[macridah]

I"m sure if apple release iWorks, then it would support WORD docs and EXCEL files. It wouldn't make sense for apple to try to force a new standard, they would just make it compatiable with other formats. Similiar to the Openoffice project. Apple just wants to make a word processor and spreadsheet program with an apple touch. Keynote can import and export powerpoint files, right?

 

[Wuddel]

I"m sure if apple release iWorks, then it would support WORD docs and EXCEL files.

Well sure this would even more threat MS and they would pull out. The answer to that is not supporting Word and Excel and either establish a new standard or being tolerated by MS, so they do not pull out.

 

[dicklacara]

Interesting choice for a name...

The original AppleWorks was developed by ex Apple employees.

Later, the same concept was reworked (by many of the same people) and sold to MS as Microsoft works.

I wonder if this is another life for that old cat...

Don Williams, if you're still around....

 

[shiny]

Well sure this would even more threat MS and they would pull out. The answer to that is not supporting Word and Excel and either establish a new standard or being tolerated by MS, so they do not pull out.

Appleworks has supported the Word and Excel file formats for over three years. MS has not pulled out yet. Why would they pull out now?

 

[Object-X]

Document

I like Document better than Pages; it sounds more professional. I wonder if this will be word processing lite, or will it challange Word? Maybe Document will come later as a more full featured word processor. Apple does have a professional line of software and an express line; maybe they will do the same thing here.

 

[Wuddel]

Appleworks has supported the Word and Excel file formats for over three years. MS has not pulled out yet. Why would they pull out now?

Well, mainly because the support was very bad and AppleWorks did not got updated.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Wrong.

http://microsoft.shareholder.com/re...3125-04-150689&SID=04-00#D10K_HTM_TOC11190_12

Pay attention to the section on Information Worker Revenues:

Excerpt:

Revenue growth for fiscal 2004 from volume licensing, retail packaged product and pre-installed versions of Office in Japan was 15% in aggregate. This increase was driven by recognition of unearned revenue primarily from a large increase in multi-year licenses signed prior to the transition to our Licensing 6.0 programs and approximately $110 million related to the launch of Office 2003. OEM licensing revenue grew 29% or $325 million. Foreign exchange rates provided approximately $485 million or 5% of total Information Worker revenue growth. The $1.02 billion or 12% increase in revenue in fiscal 2003 compared to fiscal 2002 was primarily due to growth in Office suites revenue associated with new and anniversary multi-year licensing agreements and a $264 million or 28% increase in revenue from the combined total of Microsoft Project, Microsoft Visio, and other stand-alone applications.

Information Worker operating income in fiscal 2004 increased from the prior year primarily due to growth in revenue, partially offset by an increase in operating expenses, primarily related to $351 million of stock-based compensation expense from the employee stock option transfer program in the second quarter of fiscal 2004 and higher sales and marketing expenses. Information Worker operating profit for fiscal 2003 grew 9% compared to fiscal 2002, led by the 12% increase in revenue and partially offset by a 20% growth in operating expenses related to headcount additions and marketing expenses.

Fiscal 2005 Information Worker revenue is expected to be similar to fiscal 2004. We are expecting a reduction in revenue earned from our Upgrade Advantage licensing agreements and no anticipated foreign exchange rate benefit. The significant reduction in Upgrade Advantage earned revenue is expected to be offset by sustained momentum in our OEM and multi-year licensing offerings and increased purchasing of Office System 2003 as enterprises complete their product evaluations.


-----------------------------------

Office is approximately 29.32% of Microsoft's total Business Revenues.


$10.800 Billion for 2004

Total Revenue reported:

$36.835 Billion for 2004

If you think Office for Mac only accounts for 5% that would equate to:

$169.175 Million.

They could write that off and not concern themselves, but the reality is they make considerable more on Office:Mac than they want to admit. The most they will say is they make a considerable amount on Office:Mac to keep it around.

It is a branch that always returns a profit.

Microsoft is smart not to specifically list how much it makes on Office:Mac. If they did their stockholders would ask them to do more and that goes against their strategy.

They are beholden to their stock holders to make as much profit as they can.

LOL, sorry, less than 5% of Microsoft's profits come from the Mac Business Unit.

I couldn't understand the other part. Are you trying to say that they wouldn't be able to commence a takeover with a tiny % of their staff being reassigned?

 

[BornAgainMac]

I know, my point was that, if Apple can sell 1.25 G4, 256MB RAM, 40GB hard drive in an eMac for $799, then they can sell those specs without the CRT for $499 or $599.

$799 is a 6 month old price. Fewing Macs have the G4 processor nowdays. Apple also doesn't have to pay for that expensive shipping costs from the eMac. $499 is very possible.

 

[Object-X]

Stock buy back

They won't drop Microsoft. Microsoft owns a large stake of Apple. Microsoft has a very good reason to keep Apple alive (if weak): It proves there is viable competition and alternatives on the desktop market.

The only reason Apple survived in the mid 90s was because of Microsoft.

I thought Apple bought back their stock a while back? Does anyone remember that, or was I stoned?

 

[aussie_geek]

How much??

Considering it's going to be shipped with the new budget mac, I think it's going to have to be $99 or less - who is going to pay $199 or $149 for iworks and ilife when they could get an entirely new computer with tiger aswell (another $99 - if they wait) for just a few more dollars?

I reakon it will be around half the cost of Panther. Definately count me in for a copy. And if it offers MS Office compatability then there is no use for Office on my machine (the only Microsoft Program on my mac).


aussie_geek

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I thought Apple bought back their stock a while back? Does anyone remember that, or was I stoned?

Microsoft exercised their option to sell the $150 Million non voting stock investment when the term expired allowing them to do so.

It's one of their investments that actually made them money.

 

[joeconvert]

?

Forget Microsoft Office, it's dead in the water. OpenOffice is rising and going to dominate. This product needs to used OpenDocument formats as its defaults. "Skate to where the puck is going, not where it is."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You ever use that crap?

 

[macmax77]

Well some court's could totally smash MS in pieces but they don't have the guts to do it. If Apple is not relasing an office suite with more (yes MORE much more) functions including a real good spreadsheat and word processor and integration with Filemaker for an insanely cheap price, there is no way this thing could hit a critical mass. And they would have to release it for Windows too.

Well actually I think Apple won't make this fault, but release some MS Publisher-competitor with some writing functions. Something for writing simple texts, design greeting cards etc.

Lets see. Keynote was already a bummer. Only eye candy. Noting useful. I do not want productivity software from Apple.

Dude, Keynote works great amd i can do , at a fraction of the tiem i spend in PP , a better job.

 

[Object-X]

Microsoft exercised their option to sell the $150 Million non voting stock investment when the term expired allowing them to do so.

It's one of their investments that actually made them money.

What does that mean? Did they sell it, or they just have the option to do so and haven't exercised it yet? Sorry, I'm just a stupid programmer, I know nothing about money and stocks.

 

[maya]

When I heard this news about a office productive suite from Apple all I have to say is KEWL.


Reason one:

It's going to have open source compatibility and M$ Office compatibility, no doubt.

Reason two:

When Keynote was compared to PP X it was ahead of it, however PP2004 was released wit new features so its only fitting that Keynote 2 will either be on PAR with PP2004 or exceed it. Apple entered to either meet or exceed not the other way around.

Reason three:

If this suite is TRUE it is either going to as Keynote has done will meet or exceed M$ Office 2004. So I am very much looking forward to it.

Reason four:

Apple is trying to make many application in house, since they can speed development of OS X, integrate it with everything else and implement features much much quicker than a 3rd party could and can do.

Apple can pretty much develop 10.5 for that matter a month or so before 10.4 and have the rest of they application on the same development line as the next OS update. We all know that 64-bit is the next big cross over for Apple and having all if not most of they application developed at the same time frame they don't have to wait for 3rd party developers to communicate on the same level and timeframe.

We have all heard Steve Jobs say in his keynotes when making to move to OS X that Adobe with its PS and Quark with XPress were taking a long time to get ported and I am not going to mention the other application.

No I believe this is a good thing start small and then exceed I will love to try this new Apple Suite for business I hope they have some "trade M$ Office and get X% off Apple Suite".

It's very sad since I remember the creator of Audion stating that even though they were a 3rd party Mac developer with an Audio Player for the Mac platform they were using iTunes more than they used they own Audio Applicaton (Audion), since it was free, worked well, and its development was a lot faster.

Sorry, Apple is a business like any other you either make it better than the competitors and at a fair price point or risk loosing you core business for the application your develop that goes for any x86 or PPC development that is business as is life.

Motion is falls a bit short of Adobe's AE however that said when Motion is updated to version 1.5 or even 2 at NAB in 2005 it will meet and maybe even exceed AE. Apples released software to test the waters they did it with FCP version 1, it had similar reviews and I have used it at version 1, many people said it feel short of Adobe's Première. However when it was updated it was on PAR and then exceed till the point that Adobe just dropped development for it on the Mac platform, expect the same for AE. Keynote if you felt it was not on PAR I would wait till version 2 it will be that is how all Apple software is, and I expect no different from they Office suite it might be on PAR or fall short however its a positive sign.

All Apple PRO applications have serial numbers and with they Office Suite having or rumoured to have one means only one thing Apple has created a PRO Office suite to match with M$ Office. I look forward to this.

Listen without Apple, M$ would not be, Bill Gates feels obligated to Apple its not business however its a human reasoning since what had happened with Bill and Steve. Not everything is business in business.

Last I heard was that M$ owned no shares or had any debt in fact they had a profit and a sum in the bank. Favours have no clue what you are talking about Before Steve Jobs second coming all was in the past.

There was also a rumble with M$ and Apple in regards to when signing a renewal to they contract earlier this year that M$ was looking upon discontinuing support for Office, and IE on PPC however that would was a clear sign to Apple to start developing they own Office Suite so they are not stuck dead in the water if M$ pulled Office at anytime for whatever reason. And MSN Messenger uses a internet protocol, that other 3rd party application already access, big deal if M$ does not produce Messenger for Mac they already cripple it when compared to the windows version so I really have no reason to even use they application I use a 3rd party solution.

Yes, 2005 is looking very interesting and to see that so much MIGHT be released in january only draws up what they have left for the rest of the year.

With the profiting iPod, it would seem Apple is in a position to stand on its two feet and also explore other markets in both hardware and software and since they are moving everything to CORE hardware in relation to Image, Video, Data and so forth and Open Standards this very pleasing considering what the Apple brand was in the 90's and the great turn around in a few short year to what it is now. I am indeed a very Happy Apple Computing User.

 

[digitaleon]

A few points...

A few points on the discussions so far:

(1) If the intention is that iWork(s) be some form of less expensive copy of Word (+ Excel?) + Powerpoint, then there's no point bothering. As numerous competitors have proven since Office 97 was released, trying to be an ersatz Microsoft Office does not work when it comes to attracting users. I agree that it's a tough ask; you have to be enough like Office (or Office users will ignore you), but just different 'enough' (or non-Office users will ignore you) to get a foot in the door. Assuming the rumour is true (because, despite the source, it is still a rumour), I await with interest to see how Apple intends to handle this dichotemy.

(2) If the components of the suite are being built essentially from the ground up, this is an opportunity to do some original thinking about what these products are actually being used to accomplish production-wise. Yes, it's certainly important to read and write Office formats, but there's been no discussion on what we might actually see in this suite. Having used recent versions of Word Pro and 1-2-3, Writer and Calc, and AppleWorks, there are useful features in all of these that don't exist in Word and Excel. Having used some of the document management features in Word Pro - the Master Document feature, as well as the division/section navigation and control features - which are invaluable when working with large documents, going back to Word to do the same large documents takes a lot more time and is a lot more painful. Here's hoping Document/Pages/whatever has something similar (even so-called 'consumers' work with large documents from time to time, after all). What would others like to see in this suite?

(3) When suggestions of breaking up Microsoft were truly on the cards, almost the entire desktop industry stated that doing so would irreperably harm their businesses. The U.S. government also intervened on this basis. If anyone had doubts that business concerns have been allowed to transcend legal concerns in the U.S., this should have put them to rest.

 

[dmg_software]

Their share price was taking a beating and the only thing that turned it round was Microsoft's investment:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=my

Also, they made a loss before this: http://web.archive.org/web/19981202...leases/1997/q2/970115.pr.rel.q197earning.html

Yes, this was a bad time for Apple. And it was Apple's own doing because of poor leadership. The thing that turned it around was Steve Jobs focusing the company on real outcomes (creating excellent products like the first iMac, reducing models and stock on hand, improving finances, etc).

All you're doing is interpreting some basic facts to suit your own opinions. And none of your messages have addressed your original troll:

"They won't drop Microsoft. Microsoft owns a large stake of Apple... The only reason Apple survived in the mid 90s was because of Microsoft."

Apple won't "drop Microsoft". If any company gets dropped, it'll be Microsoft dropping Apple. I can't imagine that will happen anyway. A new Macintosh Works package won't threaten Microsoft Office's monopoly of the Windows productivity suite market. The majority of Mac users will continue to buy Office to maintain compatibility with the overwhelming majority of users.

Microsoft do not and have not owned "a large stake of Apple". Microsoft only ever purchased 150 million worth of non-voting stock in Apple and agreed not to sell it within 3 yrs.

<http://www.apple.com/ca/press/1997/08/AppleMicrosoft.html>.

<http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:RL40LxQSz0gJ:cyber.law.harvard.edu/msdoj/transcripts/1109a.doc+schiller+apple+microsoft+agreement+%2Bends&hl=en&start=9>

150 million wasn't and isn't "a large stake of Apple". You stated this was a 7% share, hardly "a large stake". It was just a show of financial support that Steve Jobs sought from Bill Gates to stop market confidence in Apple from eroding further.

Also, non-voting stock stops you from voting - you have no control of the company. It also makes you look good to the DoJ and lets you have a Mac Business Units that is very profitable. A nice win all round for both parties.

This 5 year deal has ended now. I understand Microsoft have sold these shares now. And they would've made a very tidy profit on them too as Apple's share price has increased *significantly* since 1997.

"The only reason Apple survived in the mid 90s was because of Microsoft"

Sure, the 150 million deal was a significant factor, but hardly the sole factor. Yours is a simplistic opinion/troll ignoring everything that Apple did in the 1990s.

"This is what Microsoft could do. Pull out of OSX completely. Drop support for VPC, MSN Messenger, Office etc on Mac. Stock price plummets (investors know that Microsoft is big and when big goes away from small, it's not good). Apple's stock is overvalued anyway, and it will fall back to the $50 mark regardless.".

Who cares if Microsoft drop support for VPC and MSN Messenger? Apple could easily replace VPC themselves with one of a few open source alternatives that they'd improve. There'd be no rush to do this as VPC would continue to work on existing hardware. And Messenger is a joke. It's hardly worth using on the Mac platform because MS already support it so poorly. It's functionality could be added to iChat easily - just like Fire, Adium, et al have.

As far as MS dropping support for Office, I've already responded to this above. A Mac Works package isn't a threat to Microsoft's monopoly of the Windows productivity market. It's just not gonna happen.

And lastly, your assertion that "Apple's stock is overvalued anyway" is debatable. Apple doesn't just make Macintoshes anymore. It has a serious cash cow on its hands with the iPod/iTunes and this only looks like strengthening with the rumoured release of a flash-based iPod. If it does well Apple will effectively own the entire music player market. And if you couple that will a rumoured $599 iMac sans monitor, then Apple's potential is significantly strengthened. These possibilites hardly indicate a seriously overvalued share price.

if your simply not trolling this fourm then please try to put some intelligence into your posts.

 

[animefan_1]

Amen maya!!

You too dmg

 

[maxterpiece]

I don't like that name 'Pages' for a Wordprocessor. MacPress or MacPage sounds like better names.

how about MacWrite? Retro baby -- retro! I have plenty of positive memories associated with that name.

 

[maya]

$799 is a 6 month old price. Fewing Macs have the G4 processor nowdays. Apple also doesn't have to pay for that expensive shipping costs from the eMac. $499 is very possible.

The $ 499 USD, mac should take as much packaging space as a 12" iBook/PowerBook.

I hope Apple just drops the eMac line and market this new Mac to EDU and New Comers. With a small package they can pack more on a shipping skid and the weight would also be a plus. Plus internals getting cheaper over the last some months I can see the new Mac at 499 if not less with EDU pricing.

 

[zwilliams07]

I love apple products and all, but I need some space. this is farking stupid. Apple seems to just want to stamp out every third party developer possible. its like they want using a mac to be like disney world. "oh its raining? have a disney pancho!," "need to buy something? trade your american dollars for disney dollars!" "sit in the disney chair" "dring from the disney mug" "sick of disney branded stuff? live in celebration!"

I'd say something quite different. As a registered ADC member (just a student) they have been nothing but helpful. I talk with a few representatives regularly and a technicians and they love to help. I also say their stance on Open Source is the best outside of Linux.

they're ripping off konfabulator, buying emagic and stealing mariner's market and as much as we hate them they chased away IE and netscape! now if you use 3rd party software your a outofthebox user(no pun intended) and all those registered "developers" jobs talks about are just people writing mods for apple software. theres like 400 dock mod apps and 2billion itunes add ons.

Apple has not ripped off Konfabulator. You really need to do some research beforehand. I suggest you read this [ http://daringfireball.net/2004/07/konfab_confab ] and [ http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator ]. I think Apple made a wise move buying eMagic, Logic 7 is the best audio program I've used in a long time. Whats wrong with them trying to provide better tools? They aren't forcing you to use it. Mariner might of been a good program back then, but things change. Apple has the tendency to move into development of software that is out of date.

I'm also glad to be rid of IE. It was a piece of garbage back then, and still is now. IE6 is still a joke in terms of product quality. And Apple hasn't pushed either them or Mozilla away. MBU withdrew IE on their own terms. Mozilla is still putting out Firefox, Mozilla, and Thunderbird without skipping a beat. I keep a copy of Firefox updated regularly.

Your numbers are horribly askew.

dont get me wrong I love the iapps but I feel like apple is letting its brand infringe on the integrity of its products. (I know thats the point of a brand but branding is evil read naomi kliens nologo.)

I don't know where you got that idea. So far every update I've seen come from them gets better and better. If it wasn't why would Apple be promoting 150 updates and new features with each upgrade? Mac OS X Tiger is far more advanced from Longhorn. Hell M$ is still catching up with a lot of the style, UI, and technology of Apple.

its nice that apple is making headway but dont forget what happens when you need to much control.(UM MICROSOFT?!) (yes that is a conservative statement after a citation of a far leftist book.)

I seriously doubt Apple will reach the point where you have to use only their software, refuse to let you uninstall it, and keep personal info and tabs on their members like M$ does.

what the solution is? I dont know. but its apple, if they wanted to be good about it they could. instead they branding themselves to highhell and slowly closing us in. I'm sick of all the things that apple either passes themselves off as innovating or things that they pass as innovative.

that all said, macs rock. but its just getting scary.
-matt

Mind giving us some examples of non innovative things they've branded as innovative? Apple is still making large leaps. Don't get me wrong, I dislike having to fork over $129 every year. And there are a few things I'd do differently. Most notably axe iPod Photo.

 

[dmg_software]

Well, mainly because the support was very bad and AppleWorks did not got updated.

Support for MS Office file formats in everything but OpenOffice is bad. But AppleWorks has had maintenance updates over the last 3 years - from 6.1 to 6.2.9 - and it's Office translators have been improved in most releases.

 

[granex]

Pages for NextStep

"Pages" sounds like a layout program to me. Like Framemaker or InDesign. It'd be silly for Apple to try and tackle MS Office. That suite has so much momentum that it'd be easier to move a planet than to gain significant marketshare.

Incidentally to this (already lengthy) discussion, "Pages" was the name of an early piece of layout software for NextStep developed by Bruce Webster, who formerly worked at Adobe. It had many features that were way ahead of its time, but never quite got it all together to be a successful product.

There is little doubt that Steve remembers this software. Not sure about the status of the copyright on the name (or even if such a name can be copy-written, although look at Windows).

 

[wtmcgee]

Cool, but they'll be hard pressed to dethrone Office 2004.

Moreover, I think it's good that MS Office exists (and is such a quality app) for the Mac. One of the first questions I hear from potential switchers is "can it read all my files?" When I show then Office 2004, they're blown away by the fact they can open their office files on a mac, and it looks better in the process.

Sure, an iWorks can do the same thing, but MS Office for the mac gives the platform a certain credibility to those thinking about switching.

Can't wait to see what Jobs and company have cooked up!