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Fo Shizzle

Wuddel said:
I dunno. What does a 17" CRT cost? I think the price difference will still be around $200. Although most people on both "sides" will go for a TFT nowadays. I bet that Apple would release a 17" TFT matching the headless headlessMac-design. :cool:

Well I don't care about the headlessMac or iWork or not even Apple and Microsoft. I only want a computer which is powerful and easy to use and enables me to exchange documents with the rest of the world, hassle-free. An iWorks-induced pull out of MS out of the Mac market surely would cause me trouble. :( So Apple should better make the right deceisions.

I seriously doubt that MS would pull out of the Mac market because of a home productivity app.

And a cheap-ish 17" display from Apple would be a great idea. But they would still be able to market it with a "use your old display" mentality.
 
Stay Arctic

Wuddel said:
Well there is no way that it will be 100% compatible. So I still need MS Office. Don't get me wrong: I hate it. I avoid whereever I can. But I am forced to use it.

Amigos -

I'll believe these rumors when I see them in a few weeks. Which is to say, I think SF Expo will be a different animal than what we are daydreaming about on these boards.

However, I think most will agree that last year's SF Expo was somewhat lacking, and I would think that it won't take too much to improve on last year, so I do expect a more well-received Expo this time around.

Last but not least - even if Apple comes out with a nice word processing program, (and I think they might) it seems to me that it won't be intended as a killer app designed to knock MS Office off the shelf. Apple has been very supportive of Microsoft's Macintosh software development division and....wait.....err......oh hell.....maybe I've had too much New Years Eve champagne.
Safari sure kicked the stuffing out of IE Explorer for Mac, didn't it?


All the best for 2005,
Mike :p
 
mainemike said:
Apple has been very supportive of Microsoft's Macintosh software development division and....

Yes. And I hope they continue to be. And that MS is maybe not that much anti-iPod

Safari sure kicked the stuffing out of IE Explorer for Mac, didn't it?

Well, they reliefed MS from updating a minor outdated program they gave away for free by spending time and moneyon developing their own browser, which did not made a difference in the "Designed for MS IE"-Web and they gave away for free to..

Sound pretty MS-friendly to me ;)
 
Stella said:
I would really like it if Apple has taken OpenOffice, ported it to a native Mac Application and repackage it. Replace the existing openoffice presentation app with KeyNote.

To this and many other posts that pined for a fully native OpenOffice.org, have you all checked out the new NeoOffice/J 1.1 beta? It's quite nice, more or less Aqua based (much moreso than the X11 version, anyway), it automatically checks for updates at startup (that MIGHT only occur during the beta period, I don't know, but it's already informed me of 2 patches for the beta that were very quick to install). But the guts of NeoOffice/J are OpenOffice.org through and through.

I'd be interested in seeing whatever Apple might put out for a new office suite, even if it isn't OOo based, but I do agree that something based on (or at least fully supporting the documents formats for) OOo would be killer!
 
I use Office 2004 for the Mac and it is a great program. This iWorks thing might be ok as an Appleworks replacement for the home market, but honestly it is not going to take the world by storm. I am in a "world" of PC's at work and Office 2004 allows me to work with all of them with 100% compatibility. I don't think it is a good idea for Apple to get rid of their relationship with the Mac BU of Microsoft. If MS pulled Office for Mac off the market, the negative fallout would be HUGE! A lot of Mac users don't see that because all they know is they hate Microsoft. Office is a great program, it is the standard by which all Productivity Suites are judged. I would not get so excited about this rumored iWorks, because it will take a long time before it is even close to Office which is now on version 11.1. I am not a big fan of MS, but Office 2004 is a great program.
 
Sugar == Doubled Edged Sword

This news or more accurately this rumor is a doubled edged sword. On one hand, as many Mac users are probably exulting in this thread, it could potentially decrease the dependency on at least MS Word (Prob no Excel solution.) which is a good thing but on the other hand Apple has to be damn careful about how it markets such a product. If Microsoft drops Office for the Mac there are a number of people who will not even consider the Mac platform. First and foremost is the enterprise. Apple can kiss any chance of gaining ANY market share in the enterprise if they lose office. And do not tell me about open office. Open office is an OK productivity suite with decent compatibility with Office files but you explain to your client the first time you get an XLS spreadsheet that doesn’t open up correctly and you have to go back to them and ask for them to resave it in an older format or something. Compatibility has to be rock solid. When you are dealing with a MS office to MS office file you at least know you can open that file up and it will, by and large, work.
Also like it or not there are consumers out there who are in the same boat. Example. Let’s say I get one of these headless Macs with Apple’s new word processing app. Create a doc and save it to my thumbdrive. (Floppies are so 20th century.) I take it to school or college or work or whatever and try opening it up in the most common Office suite on the planet and it bombs on me. This is NOT a good thing.
Finally there is the group of people who simply need a word processor. Nothing more. They want to write letters to their friends and relatives. Do some school work to print out. Etc. They don’t need all the bells and whistles of MS Office. What do you think ships with those $500 PC’s? By and large it sure as heck isn’t MS Office. Typically its WordPerfect or even Open Office. Apple needs to tread very carefully around MS here. If they pull the same crap they did with Internet Explorer Apple could have some problems with a certain segments of potential customers. At any rate I can guarantee that Apple is looking at the whole Antitrust thing if or when MS does try and kill Office for the Mac. It has to be a strategy they are considering.
 
Why the hell would anyone use Word for their dissertation when LaTeX is tenfold superior for such work?

For your Mac try LyX for Mac.

http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/LyX/Mac

Then go to http://www.ctan.org and read up on installing extra classes to utilize the mammoth amount of publishing capabilities that TeX/LaTeX offers you.

meghop said:
Hmmm...I'm not sure where this leaves me if it's true. I have no interest in an Apple word processor and only mild interest in a spreadsheet app. However, I use Keynote all the time for grad school, and would rather purchase that separately than pay more for it and other apps I wouldn't really use. I have to use Word because of its Endnote compatability for my dissertation and so don't see getting much value from Pages. It would sit on my hard drive like Appleworks does now. Now I know how those people who only wanted iPhoto from iLife felt, LOL. Here's hoping there's an ala carte option or that the price is so low I won't care. :eek:
 
mdriftmeyer said:
Why the hell would anyone use Word for their dissertation when LaTeX is tenfold superior for such work?

1. Getting forced by your PI. (No "collaboration-mode".)
2. No spreadsheet integration.
 
You know what's funny? The other day I submitted in a poll idea of "Which do you think will be released first: Longhorn, A New Version of AppleWorks, An Apple Two-button mouse, or 3 Ghz Power Macs?"

Then this happens.

I don't like the "Pages" word-processor name. "Document" had a more refined, professional feel to it, like Word. (not being sarcastic there)
 
SiliconAddict said:
Compatibility has to be rock solid. When you are dealing with a MS office to MS office file you at least know you can open that file up and it will, by and large, work.

Are you kidding me? I've had Windows Word XP files not open correctly in Windows Word XP, never mind Mac Word X. I had one memorable Windows PowerPoint 2004 file render much more correctly in Keynote than it did in Mac PowerPoint 2004 - and in both cases the text was completely unreadable but in Keynote it looked like lines while in PowerPoint it looked like scattered dots.

Microsoft products are not compatible with themselves!

Oh, and as for XML. Haha. Save a Visio document as XML. Open it up in a text editor and have a look. All they do is encode the closed proprietary format and stuff it into a single attribute. Buzzword compliant, does nothing for data exchange.
 
SJ scheduled a 90-minute keynote address. With all the stuff flying around, he probably needs more time. He's probably gonna spent 30 minutes on Tiger. So that leaves him an hour to cough out whatever. I would keep my expectations low because it's going to be another iPod, iPod, iPod, iPod keynote address.
 
digitaleon said:
A few points on the discussions so far:

(2) If the components of the suite are being built essentially from the ground up, this is an opportunity to do some original thinking about what these products are actually being used to accomplish production-wise. Yes, it's certainly important to read and write Office formats, but there's been no discussion on what we might actually see in this suite. Having used recent versions of Word Pro and 1-2-3, Writer and Calc, and AppleWorks, there are useful features in all of these that don't exist in Word and Excel. Having used some of the document management features in Word Pro - the Master Document feature, as well as the division/section navigation and control features - which are invaluable when working with large documents, going back to Word to do the same large documents takes a lot more time and is a lot more painful. Here's hoping Document/Pages/whatever has something similar (even so-called 'consumers' work with large documents from time to time, after all). What would others like to see in this suite?

For me the almost perfect "word processor" was FrameMaker, not Word.
So there's a lot to improve from Word.
Furtermore Apple once upon a time made a very good and intuitive Word processor that I much preferred to Word: it was called MacWrite PRO. It just missed a couple of features and tables were badly implemented, but its interface was much better.

I also used for some years their excellent spreedsheet: Claris Resolve, much better that Excel 2. and 3. of its time. But than they discontinued it and newer Excels (from v. 4 on) had better tipographical control on cells and finally a decent programming language (VisualBasic, but still prefer the easier custom scripting language of Claris Resolve).

So Apple is not new to Office applications, and when they done them they were better than Microsoft counterparts. I hope they'll really make these softwares, I'm waiting them for YEARS!!!!
 
Some various comments on what people have been posting about-

1. On whether this is simply the next AppleWorks, or will become "bloatware", whether it competes with Office, etc.

I don't think this is really the right angle to look at iWorks. I don't think Apple intends to take on Office, or deliberately skirt Office either. They are simply developing the best productivity suite they can. Look at KeyNote for example (since it is the only recent Apple productivity app)- in most ways I think it is much better than PowerPoint, but at the same time doesn't have all the features of PowerPoint. But does that mean it's "cripped" or a "PowerPoint Lite"? Not at all.

Is Microsoft worried that KeyNote will trounce PowerPoint, eventually driving them to consider dumping PowerPoint for Mac? Probably not.

I guess they compete since they are the same class of application, but even if iWorks is pretty powerful stuff it will still appeal to a largely different userbase than Office. There will be some overlap, but I don't think Apple is trying to outsell Office. And they won't, and that won't matter. Because I have a feeling I'm really going to like what I see... :)

2. So what will we see? You can try to predict based on AppleWorks, but Appleworks is frankly so old that I don't think it's an accurate way of going about it. Personal computing has changed a lot since then, as has the general computer-using public. I think you should take a look at KeyNote, and that will tell us where iWorks will go.

I never thought there was any point to KeyNote, until I actually tried using it. I really like the program. I don't consider it necessarily more or less powerful than PowerPoint, it's just different- it's Apple's take on presentation software, and I like it a lot better than PowerPoint. It has less features, but its implementation of the features it has is far superior, which does make it a more powerful program for some (but not for others.)

If I had to slot KeyNote and what I think iWorks will be, I would put it somewhere in between Office and the lite suites. Remember that although these are the 2 widely accepted "classes" of productivity apps, they are competely arbitrary. If someone comes out with something different, then trying to classify it using these classes is not accurate.

3. Microsoft Office for Mac- Like I said, I don't think this will cause Office sales to drop horribly, as the 2 suites will still be very different. Although if iWorks is really, really good, then who knows. Since Apple isn't too big in the corporate world, many home users may end up picking up iWorks at the expense of Apple sales. Note that KeyNote isn't bundled with new Macs, so it's not a given that iWorks will be either (I have absolutely no problem with Apple selling iWorks as a separate item, unlike iLife which is bundled with new Macs but must otherwise be bought.)

However, I don't think fear of alienating Microsoft should drive Apple's decisions with Apple's own platform. You can only do that for so long, and at the end of the day Microsoft may still drop support anyway. Apple is still a drop in the bucket compared to Microsoft, and Microsoft does generate a fair amount of revenue from Mac Office (Microsoft has their own growth issues to deal with, and cutting profitable product lines is contrary to maintaing growth.) If Microsoft ever drops Mac support because it wants to fight Apple, well by that point Apple will be up to 6-7% market share and may have enough traction finally that having no Office for Mac won't be such a blow anymore.

Also, there's no good reason for Apple not to develop software just because another 3rd-party has done it- they have to do things for the greater good of the platform. Confabulator and Watson (just 2 examples) were not original ideas anyway, Apple had their own implementations prior. The important thing is to treat 3rd party developers with some concern and respect, which is why Apple has offered jobs to some of these developers.
 
Good news everybody: I am absolutely convinced that the big shots at Apple are totally aware of all that stuff. At least Steve ;)

They won't abondon their users in the land of incompatiblity without an überpowerful office-suite. :D If it is MS Office or iWorks.

BTW Keynote: Well Keynote 1.x is really nice-looking but not very flexible. To edit themes you need Photoshop and or Illustrator (Which I don't have as a science guy). It also lacks auto-animations or a decent slide navigator during presentation. PP2004 is way better. Lets see what Keynote 2.x can do. But I am not very optimistic.
 
This sounds good ! hopefully it will be a good competitor to MS OFFICE 2004 and be better and compatible. Good that keynote will be included, but will this be some sort of apple works overtaker ????
 
I am so JAZZED for this

If there is ONE company out there that is looking to get its @ss kicked, then clearly, its M$

We ALL know that M$ is inferior technology --- the WinDoze OS is inferior, MS OFFICE is inferior, and simple things, like their own internet browser, have already met EXTINCTION

M$, with its lousy products, are ASKING for M$ Office to become EXTINCT

Now let's get to Apple, and iWORKS

1. If this thing needs at least 500 mhz, then we already know that its gonna kick some serious @ss!!!!

2. If it is priced anwhere near $100, then that BLOWS the price of M$ OFFICE - no one would even CONSIDER it

3. then Apple pulls an 'iTunes', writes a WINDOZE version, and INVADES

You all KNOW that iTunes is now the MOST used audio app on WinDoZe

The next time you walk into CompUSA, whatchya gonna buy? iWorks for WinDoze for $100, or OFFICE for $500???

Money talks (just ask everyone who bought VHS over BETA)

Lastly, FCP and MOTION are big reasons why some people are no longer even on WinDoZe --- it was the main reasons why I switched, to begin with

It is not hard to develop an office suite that is CHEAPER and BETTER than what M$ is offering

and if Apple succeeds, than the consumers will respond

WinDoZe has met its death -----

CROSSBOW 'THIS' BILL GATES!!!!
 
advocate said:
Are you kidding me? I've had Windows Word XP files not open correctly in Windows Word XP, never mind Mac Word X. I had one memorable Windows PowerPoint 2004 file render much more correctly in Keynote than it did in Mac PowerPoint 2004 - and in both cases the text was completely unreadable but in Keynote it looked like lines while in PowerPoint it looked like scattered dots.

Microsoft products are not compatible with themselves!

Funny. I support an office of 160 users on Office 2003. We support a couple hundred big name clients on versions of Office ranging from '97 up to 2003 and other then the occasional data file corruption office files be it DOC, XLS, PPT pretty much just work.
The biggest transition was the migration from '97 to 2000. There was a pretty big change in feature in Excel. That WAS a major issue at the time. MS Access is a whole different matter though. Backwards compatibility is a PITA and there is almost, note: almost, zero forwards compatibility with each iteration of Access.
I don’t know how your version of Office is configured but I would suggest that if you have an IT staff they should have done a better job at deploying it. You can roll out any version of office to be nearly 100% compatible with previous version when it comes to creating new documents.


Oh, and as for XML. Haha. Save a Visio document as XML. Open it up in a text editor and have a look. All they do is encode the closed proprietary format and stuff it into a single attribute. Buzzword compliant, does nothing for data exchange.

As for XML I’m assuming you are talking about the proprietary schemas they use for their apps. You do know that the XML schemas used in office are available to all.
http://www.microsoft.com/office/xml/default.mspx

Right?

You can download them here: http://tinyurl.com/vgpy
 
Umm I didn't skim the previous 9 pages so this may have already been brought up. Does anyone else think 500Mhz is a tad overkill for a office suite? Short of Apple doing something drastically new and different I can’t imagine what would require such speed. :confused:
 
FULL MACWRITE PRO 1.5V3 & OFFICE COMPATIBILITY REQUIRED

This is a great idea.

WE WANT TO SWITCH FROM M$ OFFICE TO SUCH A NEW SUITE.

We will place a large corporate order. But these are absolute requirements for us:

1 - Full MacWrite Pro 1.5v3 compatibility (open MacWrite files without any formatting issue). Otherwise it will be absolutely useless for us. We have tons of such files and MacLinkPlus Deluxe 15 does not open them properly (formatting issues).

Since Apple has the code of MacWrite, that should be possible.

Even better...

The best would be a true Mac OS X version of the great MacWrite Pro application. That way compatibility with old MacWrite files would be perfect.

WE HAVE BEEN WAITING THIS FOR YEARS BECAUSE WE HATE THE AWKWARD INTERFACE, CRASHES AND PROBLEMS OF WORD FOR MAC, INCLUDING WORD 2004.

2 - Full Office 2004 compatibility (both open Office files and also save as Office files). That is a must to work with other Mac users using Office and also to work with Windows users.

If apple delivers that we will make the switch for sure. We hate M$ bloatware and love Apple software.

We just cannot wait for that!
 
Wuddel said:
(...) Lets see. Keynote was already a bummer. Only eye candy. Noting useful.

so you consider proper font rendering iCandy..?

you consider easy usability and "getting things done FAST" iCandy..?

you consider easy implication of alpha channels in TIFF files iCandy..?

well, that's something I absolutely demand from the presentation software I use and this is one reason why I will never use that bloated piece of crap that Powerpoint is again!!!

vSpacken
 
Marx55 said:
This is a great idea.

WE WANT TO SWITCH FROM M$ OFFICE TO SUCH A NEW SUITE.

We will place a large corporate order. But these are absolute requirements for us:

1 - Full MacWrite Pro 1.5v3 compatibility (open MacWrite files without any formatting issue). Otherwise it will be absolutely useless for us. We have tons of such files and MacLinkPlus Deluxe 15 does not open them properly (formatting issues).

Since Apple has the code of MacWrite, that should be possible.

Even better...

The best would be a true Mac OS X version of the great MacWrite Pro application. That way compatibility with old MacWrite files would be perfect.

WE HAVE BEEN WAITING THIS FOR YEARS BECAUSE WE HATE THE AWKWARD INTERFACE, CRASHES AND PROBLEMS OF WORD FOR MAC, INCLUDING WORD 2004.

2 - Full Office 2004 compatibility (both open Office files and also save as Office files). That is a must to work with other Mac users using Office and also to work with Windows users.

If apple delivers that we will make the switch for sure. We hate M$ bloatware and love Apple software.

We just cannot wait for that!

I agree and welcome to this forum

It would be so nice with an MS Office crusher from apple that would be standard on new models :D looking froward to it
 
@vollspacken

Yes to all of that. Fast applies only to to proper circumstances, when your material happens to fit in a theme without looking absolutely crappy. Good presentations require time BTW. (Although I do agree that this time should not be spent with fiddeling around with the software.)
 
Wuddel said:
@vollspacken

Yes to all of that. Fast applies only to to proper circumstances, when your material happens to fit in a theme without looking absolutely crappy. Good presentations require time BTW. (Although I do agree that this time should not be spent with fiddeling around with the software.)

I guess for serious use you should stick to the white theme or the black/dark blue gradient... so anything should fit in with that...

we are talking about the presentation software itself here, not the time you spend doing research/preparing your presentation beforehand (this includes setting up the material in photoshop, taking notes, preparing data.) you will have to be prepared anyway, so that's not the point. Keynote considerably speeds up the process of putting the slides together and make them look elegant (I'm talking about rendering and alignment, not fancy transitions...)

I agree with you that (with the exception of the first two) most of the other themes are (of course) out of place in a professional presentation, but I dont have a problem with them... if someone wants to give a photo slideshow to his family about his trip to Bora Bora with one of them, fine...

and I have seen so many horrible and disgusting (fonts, colors, unproper alignment, etc...) Powerpoint presentations... eeeeeew ;)

vSpacken
 
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