It's the nature of Japanese culture! Romaji is just a convenience. Decades ago after WWII, there was a minor movement of completely doing away with hiragana, katakana and kanji and totally write everything in Romaji but failed. If you are interested, there was a book completely written in Romaji. No hiragana, katakana, or Kanji, which is to current standard, "outrageous".
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Japanese Kana Keyboard Layout - Where is the key?
- Thread starter Ochire
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It's the nature of Japanese culture! Romaji is just a convenience. Decades ago after WWII, there was a minor movement of completely doing away with hiragana, katakana and kanji and totally write everything in Romaji but failed. If you are interested, there was a book completely written in Romaji. No hiragana, katakana, or Kanji, which is to current standard, "outrageous".
If I buy a japanese newspaper, novel or manga, it's in kana and kanji. If I write with a pen, I write in kana or kanji. When I learn a new word, I learn the kana or kanji.
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Regarding DoubleCommand, I found a more relevant alternative called Ukelele (correct spelling) but I couldn't figure out how to use it!
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Regarding DoubleCommand, I found a more relevant alternative called Ukelele (correct spelling) but I couldn't figure out how to use it!
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The previous post was not meant to incite my argument.
I am a native of Japan, grew up in multicultural environment. And I can say that Romaji is not just for beginners and non-speakers. It is just a good place to start learning Japanese, because it is written in latin-friendly manner. It is more than that. It is the culture. It is the end of understanding of any culture if there is no conformity.
I am not making you use Romaji at all but I just want you to realize that you are confined to what you want to learn or benefit from the culture. I can say the same even if you are learning any other languages.
Take it as my two cents.
Back to the original post: Your finding of missing "ろ" is indeed disturbing to me. Japanese is not complete without it.
I thought that learning to type with a Japanese keyboard would be awesome when I first started learning Japanese. Then I found out no one uses it anyway and I gave up. I still have one that I bought off ebay for $20 many years ago. I don't see the point in actively avoiding to even learn/understand romaji, if your language ability is good already it's not going to be detrimental in any way. I still want to master typing in 注音符號 for Chinese, but that's another story 
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.Only reason for learning romaji is: Writing Japanese in consistent manner every single time. Hepburn devised the way to standardize Japanese writing in alphabets so that the spelling is consistent every time. For example:
You will never see Mr. Yamamoto written in different ways. Ya-ma-mo-to is the only way.
Chinese or Korean names can be written in many different ways because pronunciation is more complex than Japanese: Rhee or Lee or Yee or etc.
Toyoda, CEO of Toyota, is not same as Toyota, a car company. Toyoda is とよだ but Toyota is とよた.
Of course, you can convert properly written Romaji into Hiragana or Katakana BUT not Kanji.
For this reason, sometimes Japanese American names cannot be written in original Kanji unless he or she knows his or her Japanese name spelling.
In legal documents you might be asked to provide proper spelling of Romaji along with kana (how it's pronounced) on Kanji (There are virtually infinitely many ways of pronouncing person's name).
Romaji is just a convenience to export Japanese language to western culture. Romaji is actually very useful when searching Japanese content on Google. Because Japanese writing comes in mix of three flavors, hiragana, katakana and kanji, some combinations don't hit sometimes. Existence of Romaji became significant once computers became a thing of ubiquity in 1980's
Kana-input can be an efficient typing method but if you don't have Japanese keyboard, it's inconvenient. That's why Romaji is convenient on the go.
Hope this helps
fwiw, I know a bunch of people who've gone to international schools in Japan and grow up being fluent in both Japanese and English... they seem not to mind conversing in romaji during online chats because it's easier/faster. I guess it's just how one's mind works- because the romanization of Japanese is more or less standardized, you almost know what the romaji equivalent of a word is automatically (except for cases like つ or づ which can be written tsu/tu or du). it's a lot easier than Korean for example, which can be really confusing to romanize since there seems to be more than one standard way to do it.
anyways, I'm not sure how to map keys, so I can't help you out there. just my two cents.
anyways, I'm not sure how to map keys, so I can't help you out there. just my two cents.
I see your point. But romaji is how most Japanese think when typing his or her own language. Romaji is very easy for Japanese, maybe not for non-Japanese, a point you cannot disregard. It's the sense of how Japanese think about their own language in terms of alphabets. Practice Romaji. It just comes out naturally when you have enough immersion in Japanese.
Regarding google, google does have good kana reductions but sometimes I get better results in some contexts. For example, PDF files can be named in romaji with some variation to romaji. Romaji searching is just a technique you can use for better result.
All in all, Romaji is just a convenience Japanese people take it for granted. I had earlier exposure to alphabets but in school, Romaji is compulsory (lightly covered) in 4th grader.
fwiw, I know a bunch of people who've gone to international schools in Japan and grow up being fluent in both Japanese and English... they seem not to mind conversing in romaji during online chats because it's easier/faster. I guess it's just how one's mind works- because the romanization of Japanese is more or less standardized, you almost know what the romaji equivalent of a word is automatically (except for cases like つ or づ which can be written tsu/tu or du). it's a lot easier than Korean for example, which can be really confusing to romanize since there seems to be more than one standard way to do it.
anyways, I'm not sure how to map keys, so I can't help you out there. just my two cents.
That is exactly true. That's the sense of Japanese. And you are "iketeru."
I honestly don't care which input method you want to use for Japanese, but I think the point a lot of us are trying to make is that this statement just isn't true.
I'm not going to tell the Japanese how to type, but as someone who is learning the language I have no interest in romaji at all.
Now I just need to figure out how to remap this damn key...
I've done fine without it. That statement came way after this debate started, by the way. Nice strawman.
Now I just need to figure out how to remap this damn key...
I've done fine without it. That statement came way after this debate started, by the way. Nice strawman.
You can't even type in Japanese on your computer right now. You've certainly done fine, indeed.
Actually, there is no need to remap:
<SHIFT> + ' (Single quote)
And there are many other characters that you were missing.
But remember, Romaji is NOT just "...for lazy and/or beginning (latin alphabet) students and non-speakers.", which you stated as an argument. Take responsibility for what you said. This is not tolerated, of course, by Japanese sense and most people on the forum. Respect the manners.
Learn the culture and language together. My two cents.
I didn't say I couldn't. I said I would rather type with kana, and that I refused to use romaji. But I never said I 'couldn't' type in Japanese.
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PacMookBro you are an absolute gem. That's a massive help.
P
You need a Japanese keyboard.
Anyway, I know you don't want to hear this, but the previous posters in this thread are right. There is not a Japanese person in the world who doesn't know romaji. It is required for many things, and there's no excuse for not understanding it. I have yet to meet someone, including myself, who types with a kana keyboard layout. It's simply too slow.
日本語のキーボードがいりますよ。
多分聞きたくないけど、先の皆さんの言う通りです。この世の中、ローマ字が分からない日本人は一人しかいないんですよ。色々の事の為に必要なので、分からない訳はないです。
かなキーボードでタイプする人に出会った事もないです。(僕もローマ字のを使う)
遅すぎるだけですよ。
The reason multiple romaji systems exist is mainly political. Hepburn is the universally accepted standard, nihonshiki, contrary to its name, is not used even in japan.
You need a Japanese keyboard.
Anyway, I know you don't want to hear this, but the previous posters in this thread are right. There is not a Japanese person in the world who doesn't know romaji. It is required for many things, and there's no excuse for not understanding it. I have yet to meet someone, including myself, who types with a kana keyboard layout. It's simply too slow.
日本語のキーボードがいりますよ。
多分聞きたくないけど、先の皆さんの言う通りです。この世の中、ローマ字が分からない日本人は一人しかいないんですよ。色々の事の為に必要なので、分からない訳はないです。
かなキーボードでタイプする人に出会った事もないです。(僕もローマ字のを使う)
遅すぎるだけですよ。
The reason multiple romaji systems exist is mainly political. Hepburn is the universally accepted standard, nihonshiki, contrary to its name, is not used even in japan.
I'd like to see a picture of the OPs keyboard, as the one above is a proper Japanese keyboard, and an Apple one at that if I'm not mistaken.
Either you have a Japanese keyboard, with a 'ro' key, or...you don't have a Japanese keyboard?
Unless Apple completely botched the Japanese keyboard, either you have a Japanese keyboard or you don't. If you're using a British/UK keyboard, you do NOT have a Japanese keyboard.
Pics?
As an aside--OP, drop the language elitism. I know far too many people here who carry elitist sentiments about their language abilities, and these are usually the people with the poorest language abilities.
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Well considering he doesn't even know romaji I doubt his language ability is going to be all that high.
Yeah I don't know, I'm just confused because he is saying he has a British keyboard but is looking for the dedicated 'ro' key.
Unless he's referring to a British Japanese keyboard, which there should be no such thing; the keyboard is either a Japanese keyboard like the one pictured or it isn't a Japanese keyboard AFAIK...?
Unless he's referring to a British Japanese keyboard, which there should be no such thing; the keyboard is either a Japanese keyboard like the one pictured or it isn't a Japanese keyboard AFAIK...?
they did not omitted the ろ key. your UK keyboard is just 102 keys. generally JIS keyboards are usually 106/109 keys. so if you want to remap it somewhere, you have to sacrifice one key. if so, how can you familiarize yourself on a kana keyboard layout with the ろ key somewhere else?? it's just defeats your purpose. my advice is to change your keyboard to JIS.
You people don't read my posts.
-I said I had a British keyboard.
-I said every other kana had a key about from ろ.
-I wanted to find where that was and PMB helped (I've now learnt the slightly modified layout)
-Also, I wasn't ignoring the fact that Japanese speakers use romaji,
I don't want to use romaji because I find it interferes with the learning process. If you gave me a book in romaji I could read it. However, I don't like writing in romaji so I don't. Thus, I don't want to type in it either (at least, for the time being).
-I said I had a British keyboard.
-I said every other kana had a key about from ろ.
-I wanted to find where that was and PMB helped (I've now learnt the slightly modified layout)
-Also, I wasn't ignoring the fact that Japanese speakers use romaji,
I don't want to use romaji because I find it interferes with the learning process. If you gave me a book in romaji I could read it. However, I don't like writing in romaji so I don't. Thus, I don't want to type in it either (at least, for the time being).
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Did you get it working yet, Ochire?
Here are a couple of things you can try:
- The key to the left of 1. Which key this is probably depends on which keyboard you have exactly.
- The key where "_" is. On some UK keyboards I have seen, this is shift+-.
If neither of them work, let's keep looking for something else.
There must be a way!
Broad generalisation, and totally incorrect. In fact, there are many older Japanese people who even have trouble with katakana. Do not hold everyone to the same standards as yourself.
This is something which greatly puzzles me.
How can it be slower to type ろ with one key press, than RO with two key presses? Again, are you holding everyone else to your standards? People who have trained to type in kana, can type way faster than romaji allows. It's natural because there are half as many keystrokes.
Your Japanese is a bit off.
一人しかいない means only one Japanese person doesn't know romaji keyboard.
I guess you meant 一人もいない。
タイプする is probably a bit uneasy for most people. 入力する or 打つ are more natural.
Nihonshiki is used in Japan actually, especially for typing, as it is shorter than hepburn in many cases, and also removes confusion between ず/じ and づ/ぢ.
Here are a couple of things you can try:
- The key to the left of 1. Which key this is probably depends on which keyboard you have exactly.
- The key where "_" is. On some UK keyboards I have seen, this is shift+-.
If neither of them work, let's keep looking for something else.
There must be a way!
Broad generalisation, and totally incorrect. In fact, there are many older Japanese people who even have trouble with katakana. Do not hold everyone to the same standards as yourself.
This is something which greatly puzzles me.
How can it be slower to type ろ with one key press, than RO with two key presses? Again, are you holding everyone else to your standards? People who have trained to type in kana, can type way faster than romaji allows. It's natural because there are half as many keystrokes.
Your Japanese is a bit off.
一人しかいない means only one Japanese person doesn't know romaji keyboard.
I guess you meant 一人もいない。
タイプする is probably a bit uneasy for most people. 入力する or 打つ are more natural.
Nihonshiki is used in Japan actually, especially for typing, as it is shorter than hepburn in many cases, and also removes confusion between ず/じ and づ/ぢ.
i guess i must just be exceptionally dim because i still dont understand how a british english keyboard has all the other japanese kana keys on it.
Each is assigned to a key when in kana input. On my old laptop I had kana stickers on the keys.