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I sort of wonder where they came up with Windows 7 as a code name. Does it show that people at MS can't count?
Windows 1, 2, 3 (and 3.11), 95, ME, 98, XP and Vista seem to be 8, and I didn't bother with the NT and 2000 flavors. :)

I'm no expert in Windows history, I went from Amiga 1000 to Mac System 7, to Win95/98, to Mac OS9/X, so I'm surely no expert on Windows. But I'm pretty sure if you look at the underlying tech, you see where that 7 comes from:
Win95 was essentially 3.11 gussied up. 98, 2000 and ME are basically the same core. XP was built on NT. I could be wrong but this gives us:
Windows 1; 2; 3 (3.x and 95); 4 (98, ME, 2000); 5 (NT and XP); 6 (Vista); and 7 which I believe will be built on Microsoft's top-secret "MS-Darwin" project



Vienna could be the code name for the next windows, ...

Vienna? They should call it Venice, because they're both sinking!
Ba-dum kshh!

Honestly, if I were Microsoft, I would do a half-ass job porting the "Windows aesthetic" to a Linux distro, then put my marketing gurus to work selling the world on the familiarity of Windows combined with the geek-couture, rock-solid(?) otherworldly Linux that they've heard of but know nothing about other than its something that the computer experts in their Frito towers and secret labs use a lot for something.

Oh, it would suck. it would suck harder than a mis-aimed vacuum attachment (yow!) but I think that Average Joe would snap that scat up. They'd be like, "Whoa! It's got Linux in it! it must be all... awesome!"
 
The pace of OSX updates has consistently slowed:

10.0 3/24/01
10.1 9/25/01 (6 months)
10.2 8/23/02 (11 months)
10.3 10/24/03 (14 months)
10.4 4/29/05 (18 months)
10.5 10/26/07 (30 months)

I'm with the people who don't think we'll see 10.6 until 2010, which is 26 months away. Although the end of 2009 seems possible. I also think we'll see 10.6 either well before the next Windows release, or soon afterwards (for marketing reasons).

You might want to bear in mind that Steve Jobs has said before that they released a whole new operating system back last year, 10.4 Intel so he basically considers 10.4 to be two operating systems. 10.4 PPC released 4/29/05, 18 months after 10.3 and 10.4 Intel released 1/10/06, 12 months after 10.4 PPC and 19 months before Leopard. This might explain the 12/18 month thing he said.
 
Aloha everyone,

Sorry for being late to the party, but what with being six hours behind y'all East Coast guys and all ..... :D

In January, ironically during "Vista Launch week", Steve Ballmer himself spoke of the next Microsoft OS, codenamed Vienna (in the fourth paragraph). I wonder where this Windows 7 thing came from? I'm confused, but that's my normal reaction when it comes to Microsoft.

HawaiiMacAddict


My guess is that Windows 7 is the Code name for the Core-system/Kernel. And Vienna is the code name for the release itself.

Like Windows XP was Whistler but internally Windows 5.1.

So I'd say Vienna is more of a code name for the whole system, with GUI improvements and everything, while Windows 7 is just the kernel-version.
 
You have to separate the OS threads

...
Win95 was essentially 3.11 gussied up. 98, 2000 and ME are basically the same core. XP was built on NT. I could be wrong but this gives us:
Windows 1; 2; 3 (3.x and 95); 4 (98, ME, 2000); 5 (NT and XP); 6 (Vista); and 7 which I believe will be built on Microsoft's top-secret "MS-Darwin"

The Windows versioning is all based on the NT versions
NT 3.51
NT 4
2000 (NT 5.0)
XP (NT 5.1)
Server 2003 (5.2)
Vista (6.?)
Server 2008 (6.?)
Windows 7

Windows 3.11> Windows 95 > Windows 98 > Windows ME > Grave

While NT 4 and 2000 might have adopted the Windows 95/98 interface, and the registry, of course, the underpinnings were still NT. Windows ME should never have seen the light of day.
 
The Windows versioning is all based on the NT versions
NT 3.51
NT 4
2000 (NT 5.0)
XP (NT 5.1)
Server 2003 (5.2)
Vista (6.?)
Server 2008 (6.?)
Windows 7

Windows 3.11> Windows 95 > Windows 98 > Windows ME > Grave

While NT 4 and 2000 might have adopted the Windows 95/98 interface, and the registry, of course, the underpinnings were still NT. Windows ME should never have seen the light of day.


Windows 2000 was probably the best O/S Microsoft ever came out with.
 
I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that while OS X 10.6 may or may not wow us with new user features, I think it will have drastic "under the hood changes":

(1) no more PPC support.

I bet that 10.6 will have PPC-support. Maybe limited to just G5, but it will be there. 11.0 will be the version that will drop PPC.

(4) new zfs filesystem, including boot partition.

I think this is another 11.0-feature Change like that would be pretty major undertaking.

I think that after 10.6 Apple will focus on 11.0. That OS will support Intel-only, ZFS and will feature a new kernel, maybe Solaris-kernel...
 
The Windows versioning is all based on the NT versions
NT 3.51
NT 4
2000 (NT 5.0)
XP (NT 5.1)
Server 2003 (5.2)
Vista (6.?)
Server 2008 (6.?)
Windows 7

Windows 3.11> Windows 95 > Windows 98 > Windows ME > Grave

While NT 4 and 2000 might have adopted the Windows 95/98 interface, and the registry, of course, the underpinnings were still NT. Windows ME should never have seen the light of day.

Yeah, I got this habit of talking as if I know what I'm talking about from my Dad. I just can't help it. But it was a pretty good guess, right? it sounded like a reasonable answer.

I did know about ME though. it took me five years to convince my mom that the problem with her computer was Windows ME.

Of course, now when people have trouble with their computer I get to look at it and say, oh, i see the problem... some joker has put Vista on your machine!
 
Could someone define what to "anchor a product schedule" means? Sounds iike they're just saying, "we've got great products coming up over the next 10 years, stay tuned." In that case: duh.

Also, for some reason I was thinking 10.5 was the final OSX release. Opinions on OSXI anyone?

I would take it to mean that things will stabilize in the coming years, with more focus on feature upgrades and Apple hardware (More Macs)... The foundation/architecture is stable...

Lets look at the time since 10.4 -

Microsoft has it's own Copeland...
Apple sees iPod/iTunes become dominant
Apple move away from PPC, makes Intel transition (and yes, I'd see this as an OS release - 10.4 Intel)
Apple develops 10.5, now UNIX, not derived UNIX, seems to be moving towards ZFS and other goodies at the core of the OS.. Core Animation, resolution independence, etc..
Apple moves MacOS X, nee, OS X into becoming more of a platform... AppleTV, iPhone, iPods... (And these seemed to include some features of 10.5 before 10.5's release)

So, now with this latest cat out of the bag, Jobs is saying that 10.5 and the technology behind it will be the anchor, or foundation for everything else... The foundation is stable, the transitions are over, now we can have more fun...

I think we'll see 10.5 become the starting point for all future releases of OS X. From MacOS X 10.5 you not only go to MacOS X 10.6, but future releases of OS X iPhone, OS X iPod, OS X AppleTV, OS X VW.... 10.5 is the stable, post-transition point where all the other versions will branch out from.

Not saying if this is good or bad... But thats my take on it so far.


jwd
 
"No verbs" does sound absolute. However, in the context of the article, when Jobs says "there are no verbs" he appears to be referring to operations that occur with no dialogs -- like tapping, rotataing, pinching, flicking, and swiping.

Sometimes in a phone interview it is not possible to think out how your responses will be interpreted or whether what is said is entirely accurate. In retrospect, it may have been better to state: 'We strived to eliminate "verbs" for many actions that previously relied on them.'

I think he was referring to the fact that you "just do" with an iPhone.

For example. On a computer, in mail, to delete a message, you select it and then press Delete, or use the delete menu. On an iPhone just swipe your finger over the message. You have effectively selected and acted upon it in the same act. OK, so you have to confirm that you want to delete it (which I wish they'd let me turn off!) but you get the point.

The resize of an image is the best example, as you say. On a computer, you would select it and then drag it. On an iPhone you just "pinch" in one motion. There's no real notion of "selecting" things on an iPhone (which is why they haven't gotten cut and paste working, something that has irked me on a few occaisons. For example when I wanted to email someone an address from google maps and couldn't find any way to do it!)

There are dialogs in the iPhone OS, but they are confirmation and choices. There is a definite usage paradigm shift. Not sure how well it translates to a larger device like a computer yet, but if I had to pick anyone to figure it out, I'd pick Apple. :)

be well

t
 
The Windows versioning is all based on the NT versions
NT 3.51
NT 4
2000 (NT 5.0)
XP (NT 5.1)
Server 2003 (5.2)
Vista (6.?)
Server 2008 (6.?)
Windows 7

Windows 3.11> Windows 95 > Windows 98 > Windows ME > Grave

While NT 4 and 2000 might have adopted the Windows 95/98 interface, and the registry, of course, the underpinnings were still NT. Windows ME should never have seen the light of day.

Don't forget Windows CE, which then lets you combine the best of three releases (CE, ME and NT)

As in this graphic, which is a timeless classic in my opinion!

http://www.tburke.net/fun_stuff/pictures/computers/windows-cement.htm

be well

t
 
Is there any info on when new Macs will come with Leopard pre-installed?
My understanding from an Apple Retail person this weekend was that Leopard would be included with every Mac sold after 6 pm on Friday. It may be a drop in box copy but it will be with the machine. For it to be loaded on the machine I think it needs to be manufactured after the announcement.

So will this "Leopard-In-The-Box" copy be only at Apple Stores on the 26th, or will their resellers (i.e.-Best Buy) be doing the same thing?
 
Oh problem is apple does force obsolet on its older OS. They drop all major support for it very quickly, and you will noticed how quickly software devs stop providing support for it.
I have not found that to be true. With the exception of system utilities, most Mac software works as far back as Panther. After moving on, the systems continue to work just as effectively. Developers will take advantage of the new OS. That has nothing to do with forced obsolescence. Developers could easily continue to develop for older OSes with no trouble at all--they choose not to in many cases.
The Windows versioning is all based on the NT versions
Which is in turn based on the classical Windows versions (you skipped NT 3.1, which was named for Windows 3.1). NT 4 was in turn named for Windows 95 (Version 4.0), the first part of the Windows 4 family, which did and does include all the 9x releases.

So Orng is right about the version-setting releases (the consumer OSes, not the early NT releases), and you are right that the current lineage can be traced along the NT line (whose version numbers are modeled after the DOS-based line and not, as you claim, "based on the NT versions").
I think that after 10.6 Apple will focus on 11.0.
What is the functional difference of calling it "11.0" as opposed to "10.7"? It will remain OS X for the foreseeable future, regardless of the version numbers. They're not going to ditch the brand because they hit 10.9. It's highly likely that there will never be an OS11 branded as such.
 
Which is in turn based on the classical Windows versions (you skipped NT 3.1, which was named for Windows 3.1). NT 4 was in turn named for Windows 95 (Version 4.0), the first part of the Windows 4 family, which did and does include all the 9x releases.

Not quite.

First there was Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and then 3.1. At this point Microsoft rewrote a whole new OS, NT 3.1 and labelled it to match the current consumer line. The consumer line then had a major rewrite to become Windows 95. The Windows 95 code was the basis for Windows 95, 98 and Millenium. NT 3.1's code was the basis for NT 3.5, NT 3.51, NT 4.0 (at which point NT's gui was redesigned to match the consumer line), 2000, XP, Vista etc.

Vista is far more based upon NT 3.1 code than it is Windows 95 code and Windows CE is a complete different code base with a different kernel.

See here:

Windows_Family_Tree.png


And for what its worth, I agree with everyone else, Windows 2000 was the best Microsoft OS ever. :)
 
Ok, as cool as new updates are, I don't like shelling out $120+ every year to year and a half. That's even with an education discount! WTF?
While I certainly agree that Microsoft's schedule kinda sucks, it's not like Apple's price scheme is much different. Windows = $400 every 5 years, Mac = $100 every 1-1.5 years. Not much of a difference, unfortunately.
Regular GOOD updates would be good, rather than new versions all the time...

You seem to disregard several obvious facts.

Apple does 10.X.x updates for free by software update that not only squashes bugs but adds some random features.

Apple does offer FREE software such as iTunes and updates for that free too.

Apple offers low cost consumer applications like iLife, $79 retail and free with a computer purchase. Free updates between major releases.

Now if your primary complaint is the approximately $8 a month it costs you IF you want the latest greatest OS at every moment in time, without skipping any, then you are really going to hate it when MacBooks start offering EDGE and Wimax wireless internet access for $20 a month.

Rocketman
 
Rodimus, Rodimus....

Oh problem is apple does force obsolet on its older OS. They drop all major support for it very quickly, and you will noticed how quickly software devs stop providing support for it. ....

Don't upgrade, and everything you do now will work perfectly the next morning and will keep working perfectly years into the future.

Every upgrade for every OS requires the user to determine whether the new or enhanced features are worth *whatever* the cost in hardware or software upgrades that go along with it. Not worth it to you---don't do it. It IS that simple, as the poster said. Do you still use floppy disks, and should they still be supported? Why, and where do you draw the line?

How much "support" do you need from Apple? I just install the OS and use it, periodically installing upgrades (IF I think they are worth it). I use the software that works with it. No problems. I keep the computers I use until I'm impressed enough with a new one to switch, usually five years or more. What support do you need years after the release? How long should incompatible hardware be supported? Would you rather Apple create software work-arounds so you can continue using OS 9 and an Apple LaserWriter II? How about OS 7?

In the Windows world they REALLY needs those Service Packs because (unlike some here) I've never seen a useful "regular user" new feature in those releases, just bug fixes and security updates (I use a couple of PCs with XP and one with 3.1). I really don't care if they issue yet another upgrade to Bluetooth functionality or network configuration.

Just because other companies making software for sale to Mac users quit developing endlessly backward-compatible versions at some point, that's not Apple's fault. If HP decides that they no longer want to issue/support new printer drivers for use with OS 9, why is that Apple's fault? It's a market-driven decision, pure and simple.

I DO agree that sometimes Apple should help out some companies with support on their drivers for things like scanners and other devices. But just look at the list of devices that don't work with Vista and you see it's not a unique situation.

OK so I cribbed the header from the movie "Gladiator"...it just seemed to fit...
 
One thing I really wish will happen in the next version of the Mac OS after 10.5 (10.6? XI?) is get rid of Carbon. It's so old and antiquated, it should've been dead and buried in 10.2 or something. Especially the speech recognition/text-to-speech technology. It's pretty much unchanged since OS 7 it seems like. The voices sounded awful back then, and they sound even worse now. Once the Mac OS goes Intel only, that's when Carbon should be out.

One other thing I'd really like to see (but will never happen) is for Apple to open up Mac OS to other hardware. Macs are good, but I'd like to add stuff that Apple doesn't currently supply & there's no easy to get Mac OS X on a generic PC. I'd love to be able to build my own computer & use Mac OS X on it, but oh, well. I know some off you will say "Well, if you're not happy w/ Macs, don't buy them!" I am happy w/ Macs (both the computers & OS), I could by happier.

It looks as if the speech part of Leopard will make you happy.... as far as hardware I used to think having all the PC options under the sun would be a great thing... But I have grown and I have grown to love not having to worry about Drivers and compatability issue ever. My Mind is at ease now and that is much better...
 
I do not like apples 12-18 months upgrade cycle along with force obsoleting of any previos OS. They drop all major support (anything but security updates) not long after the release of the next OS. This a long with put out all this nice little apps and making sure they do not work on older vs.
Then they get the Devs in on doing the same thing. One thing I like about M$ is they tend to try to do a 3 year cycle on its major OS releases. 95,98,XP and Vista original planned release date were all 3 years apart.
People complain about what M$ charges for it OS upgrades but when you compare it with apple upgrade cost over the same time span M$ is cheaper. Plus add in the fact that with windows one can true get away with only really upgrading when getting a new computer. With an Mac you can bet on you will need to pay for at least one if not 2 OS upgrades.

M$ continues to support there OS and Devs keep making plenty of software for 3+ years after its been replaced. XP support last threw summer of 09 (extended past the original slated drop date of 07)

Microsoft Windows is a joke. You get what you pay for!
 
So would I but I don't think so. The dropping of Computer from the Apple name was more telling than people imagine. Expect to see Apple branch out even further and continue to flesh out their non-computer products even more. I am sure the Macs will get a look-in but the days when they took centre stage are over. :(

Hope you are wrong. With market share of the Mac rising, now is the time to pay more attention to it!
 
I think he was referring to the fact that you "just do" with an iPhone.

For example. On a computer, in mail, to delete a message, you select it and then press Delete, or use the delete menu. On an iPhone just swipe your finger over the message. You have effectively selected and acted upon it in the same act. OK, so you have to confirm that you want to delete it (which I wish they'd let me turn off!) but you get the point.

The resize of an image is the best example, as you say. On a computer, you would select it and then drag it. On an iPhone you just "pinch" in one motion. There's no real notion of "selecting" things on an iPhone (which is why they haven't gotten cut and paste working, something that has irked me on a few occaisons. For example when I wanted to email someone an address from google maps and couldn't find any way to do it!)

There are dialogs in the iPhone OS, but they are confirmation and choices. There is a definite usage paradigm shift. Not sure how well it translates to a larger device like a computer yet, but if I had to pick anyone to figure it out, I'd pick Apple. :)

be well

t


I think you hit the nail... The challenge with copy-paste is that iPhone's implementation of it MUST fit within the fold of their own usability standards. It can't be as clunky as it is on iPhone's contemporaries. It has to be something much easier... as easy as pinching/stretching in concept and execution.

There could be a few different approaches in testing right now.

One could be a two finger swipe to highlight but that presents visibility problems... which could be overcome with a magnifier above the selected text... but already you can see this needing a few workarounds just to make it work.

Another could be a copy-paste button that when pressed switches the functionality of dragging to highlight text.... but again we're moving away from ease of use here.

Designing a device to be idiotically easy doesn't mean making it easy for idiots. It means making the technology transparent so the user can focus on creating and executing (doing) rather than configuring, selecting, copying, pasting, etc. Making things easier to do increases one's productivity... getting more things accomplished in the same span of time.

So what about a time-delay that works like the time-delay double-click sensitivity on a mouse.... I know this sounds convoluted but the concept is simpler than the explanation, bear with me: You know on a mouse you click twice fast and it has a separate function from clicking twice slowly which registers as two single-clicks. Now, iPhone already uses double-tap to zoom in/out.... but what if a copy function sensed double-tap in two different places. i.e. you tap once at the beginning of the text you want to copy, and tap again at the end of it. You could set the threshold for double-tap speed to your liking, AND, lets say, if you need some accuracy you hold the button down on the second tap and the magnifier appears, allowing better precision of the end of your highlight. Again, the trick to this is making the execution minimal and fluid. Tap ......... tap.

Ok now what? We've highlighted... but what about copy. I like the idea of a contextual pull-down menu but it still is wasting the potential of multitouch. What about a gesture for copy... gesturing a "c" on the screen. And then maybe a gesture like a "v" for paste. And "x" for cut. Two reasons this might work...

1. Everyone is already familiar with Control or Command "c" and "v" whether you use Windows or Mac, the letters are the same.

2. "c" looks like a circle.. like you're saying "this is what I want to copy. "v" looks like the insert character you write when proofreading a paper and marking where you want to insert text... which is probably why "v" was picked as the universal paste shortcut key in the first place.

Simplicity isn't just about being dopey enough that a moron can use it... It's also about mnemonics... being simple enough to remember by relating to things you already know how to do.

With some intelligent software filtering, as iPhone already has to limit unintended gestures and recognize intended ones within the context of what you're doing (e.g. "c" and "v" should do nothing when text isn't selected), you could have some really cool gesturing capabilities that extend your productivity well past what you can do with a clunky stylus and mediocre handwriting recognition.

Speech recognition is another possibility but you have to have an option when talking aloud to your PDA or phone isn't possible (e.g. a meeting).
 
Consider that when Jobs said Apple would be slowing down on OS development they were still secretly working on the Intel version.

This is so true, and leads me to believe Steve was already seriously considering the big switch back in 2004... He was giving Apple some time to polish Tiger on intel when he said that..
 
Windows 7

The next Windows is code-named Windows 7? I guess Microsoft is getting tired cow jokes...

In January, ironically during "Vista Launch week", Steve Ballmer himself spoke of the next Microsoft OS, codenamed Vienna (in the fourth paragraph). I wonder where this Windows 7 thing came from?

I can clear this up.

Steven Sinofsky, the new Senior VP of the Windows Engineering Group, does not believe in code names. I know because I spent four years under his reign in Office where we used the following internal designations:
  • Office 9 = Office 2000
  • Office 10 = Office XP
  • Office 11 = Office 2003
  • Office 12 = Office 2007
True to form, one of Sinofsky's first mandates when he took over Windows was to kill Vienna as a code name and replace it with Windows 7.

Also, don't assume these numbers track major versions on a 1:1 basis. For example, the code name for the successor to Office 2007 is Office 14.
 
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