Your point falls flat with Apple releasing apologies and replacement programs because the keyboard design is the problem, not the people using them.
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Joe Rogan - Macs Have the Worst Keyboards
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Your point falls flat with Apple releasing apologies and replacement programs because the keyboard design is the problem, not the people using them.
It really is amazing to see how far Apple has fallen with this keyboard. And honestly it makes no sense. They had they keyboard that every other manufacturer tried to copy and that was continually lauded for how great it was in the previous generations.
Its a confounding choice they made to go away from that design to save a couple of millimeters and to make it look pretty with the backlighting. There HAD to be people challenging them on this design within Apple that ultimately were told to shut up.
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There's a difference between adapting to the keyboard and actually enjoying typing on it. And people shouldn't have to purchase one of the most expensive laptops on the market and be told "You need to learn to type on this keyboard." We should be able to pick it up and start typing on it.
I've adapted to the butterfly MacBook Pro keyboard. I also think its far worse than previous models and I don't enjoy typing on it. I can do it without typos or errors but I also find it uncomfortable, unnecessarily loud, and just an overall poor experience.
Its a confounding choice they made to go away from that design to save a couple of millimeters and to make it look pretty with the backlighting. There HAD to be people challenging them on this design within Apple that ultimately were told to shut up.
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There's a difference between adapting to the keyboard and actually enjoying typing on it. And people shouldn't have to purchase one of the most expensive laptops on the market and be told "You need to learn to type on this keyboard." We should be able to pick it up and start typing on it.
I've adapted to the butterfly MacBook Pro keyboard. I also think its far worse than previous models and I don't enjoy typing on it. I can do it without typos or errors but I also find it uncomfortable, unnecessarily loud, and just an overall poor experience.
Oddly, for me it's not so much the keyboard as it is the T2 reboot issue. I've experienced it with both the MBP and MBA. I do prefer the older keyboards, but the one on the 2018 MBA isn't all that bad.
I have been using a Lenovo X1 Carbon, the one Joe has, and I can say it's a nice laptop. I have both Windows 10 and PopOS on it. I prefer the latter, but need apps that are Windows only. I may do a KVM thing on Linux, and see how it goes. If it works, I'll just go Linux exclusively, and run the few Windows apps I need via a VM.
I have been using a Lenovo X1 Carbon, the one Joe has, and I can say it's a nice laptop. I have both Windows 10 and PopOS on it. I prefer the latter, but need apps that are Windows only. I may do a KVM thing on Linux, and see how it goes. If it works, I'll just go Linux exclusively, and run the few Windows apps I need via a VM.
Well, we are basically in the same spot right now. I own X1C, but passed it along to my wife. But I also own X1E, fully loaded. Lots of people here love Windows 10, but not me. I can tolerate it, but that's about it. Different people, different needs, different preferences. Makes sense.
But also a fan of PopOS, love it. Especially how natural keyboard shortcuts feel. Whenever I switch to windows or macOS, I try to use the same shortcuts all the time.
I can run Unity3D/Godot in PopOS, even JetBrains Rider works like a charm. PopOS is great for some small webdev I do on the side. But some mission critical apps don't work on Linux at all. And the funny thing is, I need those apps like 10% of my work time, but can't do my work without them.
MacOS is the obvious solution to the problem, and nothing would make me feel better then to use MacOS again as my primary OS. But since MBP is what it is at the moment, X1E is the primary device. Hardware wise, and build quality wise, it's way better then any MBP I have ever owned. And before anyone jumps and shoots me for saying that, well, it's just my subjective point of view. Not a general conclusion.
I still have to try out Windows as VM when using PopOS. I have more then enough ram (32GB), more then enough storage (2TB), and cpu/gpu is great as well. But somehow I always found VM's painful to use. They worked great for me when I used them for testing purposes, but this would be in development, and I would use actual apps in VM, like Affinity Designer/Photo and Maya.
Now you've put a bug in my ear. I'm gonna try it out in 10+ days when I return from my trip. In the meantime, please, if you put everything together, go to X1E thread and post your findings there
I've heard the Lenovo X1 being mentioned quite a few times, also looked at the HP Zbook series. I'd be after build quality, a good trackpad, keyboard and screen and ideally a proper ethernet port along with low operating noise. I'd be running Linux though.
There is this narrative (for a while now and for many things) of the pragmatic and realistic engineer vs the fancy, unpractical designer, marketing guy or unreasonable manager. I don't know the source of this belief, but I guess it comes from a cynical view of capitalism. But in reality, that's not how things work, especially in big companies.
From everything we read and heard about Apple and its design culture, the engineers are equally pushing the miniaturization angle (if not more) as the management or designers. Think about it - top-notch engineers don't come to Apple to build boring products, they want to challenge themselves just as designers and push things to the limit. But people still imagine Jony and Phil going around and demanding things to be thinner, while the technical engineers are shaking their hands. A very doubtful scenario.
Well, we are basically in the same spot right now. I own X1C, but passed it along to my wife. But I also own X1E, fully loaded. Lots of people here love Windows 10, but not me. I can tolerate it, but that's about it. Different people, different needs, different preferences. Makes sense.
But also a fan of PopOS, love it. Especially how natural keyboard shortcuts feel. Whenever I switch to windows or macOS, I try to use the same shortcuts all the time.
I can run Unity3D/Godot in PopOS, even JetBrains Rider works like a charm. PopOS is great for some small webdev I do on the side. But some mission critical apps don't work on Linux at all. And the funny thing is, I need those apps like 10% of my work time, but can't do my work without them.
MacOS is the obvious solution to the problem, and nothing would make me feel better then to use MacOS again as my primary OS. But since MBP is what it is at the moment, X1E is the primary device. Hardware wise, and build quality wise, it's way better then any MBP I have ever owned. And before anyone jumps and shoots me for saying that, well, it's just my subjective point of view. Not a general conclusion.
I still have to try out Windows as VM when using PopOS. I have more then enough ram (32GB), more then enough storage (2TB), and cpu/gpu is great as well. But somehow I always found VM's painful to use. They worked great for me when I used them for testing purposes, but this would be in development, and I would use actual apps in VM, like Affinity Designer/Photo and Maya.
Now you've put a bug in my ear. I'm gonna try it out in 10+ days when I return from my trip. In the meantime, please, if you put everything together, go to X1E thread and post your findings there
Will do on the posting...
Yes, VM's aren't the permanent solution, and I too find them painful at times for some things. Even with all the resources they still have that odd, choppy feeling to me. But with Windows 10 I get that kind of feeling at times when it's running natively. After all these years, Windows 10 version of Virtual Desktops is abysmal, including the gestures. Yet on Linux/MacOS it's fluid, and feels part of the OS.
I tried a few Linux variants, but for some reason POP on the Thinkpad seems like it came that way from the factory. I haven't had any issues with sound, video, or the trackpad. I still need to do some tweaking, but overall I like it a lot.
My experience working for a couple of large US based multi-nationals, in the US, both in technical and management capacities informs me differently than how you believe "things work, especially in big companies".
Leadership has a vision. Senior management on down through the various organizations and managing structures execute that vision. There is a hierarchy and it funnels down, not up. There are factions and disputes cross-org, inter-org, up and down, but that doesn't change the execution strategy. You seem to be describing some kind of democratic ideal, but that is not how corporations work, and thats a good thing.
So yes, I do suspect there are disagreements with directives to keep on pushing the thin design philosophy. And given the resent technical problems with keyboards, I would be surprised if there was not finger pointing. But only a fool would point at certain vision leaders too acutely unless said person was ready to move on, retire, or otherwise get retaliated against.
Regarding capitalism, it's my middle name - nouveau capitalist redneck. I see my Amazon stock is up more than 3% today.
Who said that you have to care?
Just simply don't. It's the easiest thing to do.
But why do I get the feeling that this is simply the case of:
"He doesn't agree with my opinion, so he must be wrong"?
I watched the whole video, and was actually pleasantly surprised. I remember when Rogan did the TV show, and some of his standup, and didn't expect this. He said he still has the MBP [or MBA], but he just likes the KB experience when he writes his bits. He was far more knowledgeable than I anticipated.
It's really just another persons experience and opinions, which is what these boards are all about really...? Some prefer desktops, other laptops. Same with tablets or phones.
It's really just another persons experience and opinions, which is what these boards are all about really...? Some prefer desktops, other laptops. Same with tablets or phones.
Videos from people who had their head punched too many times aside, let's be sensible.
Look at tech rants on the internet. Privileged, narcisstic generation who never experienced the days of actually thick, loud, painful keyboards. The days of very expensive software. The days of very expensive home video. The days when you actually had to get off your ass and talk to people in real life and use your brain. They have so much convenience now and they don't have any gratitude or hindsight or foresight.
We live in this delusional left-swipe culture. Every little thing is an argument today. A computer company shaves 1 millimetre off of keyboard travel and these privileged neets lose their minds and think Joe Rogan's opinion on anything matters. I think I'll put my trust in the engineers who spend millions on R&D and are working towards more efficient and easier to use systems.
Disclaimer: I like how the 3rd gen butterfly keyboard feels.
That said, the real issue imo is:
1 - the keyboard seems to have reliability issues. If this is true or not, the really, really bad thing is:
2 - what is said under (1) plus the keyboard is not user replaceable/repairable
So once the device is out of warranty - and that happens sooner or later - fixing the keyboard is crazy expensive, with no way for the user to DIY.
In the light of this one may wonder why Apple lobbies so aggressively against the right to repair...
That said, the real issue imo is:
1 - the keyboard seems to have reliability issues. If this is true or not, the really, really bad thing is:
2 - what is said under (1) plus the keyboard is not user replaceable/repairable
So once the device is out of warranty - and that happens sooner or later - fixing the keyboard is crazy expensive, with no way for the user to DIY.
In the light of this one may wonder why Apple lobbies so aggressively against the right to repair...
Should read like: "trust in the engineers who spend minimal on R&D and are working towards the cheapest design to achieve the maximum amount of profit and with increase in breaks down/recalls to use Apple Service.
More Fanboys.......
You are Apple's ultimate customer. The fanboy who laps up whatever they create and doesn't dare challenge them on design decisions they made. If everyone was like you there would never be improvements on subpar products. The engineers don't always know what's best, and many times sacrifice form over function.
You are looking way to deep into this. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Enough people have complained about this keyboard to warrant that it needs to be changed. Its not user friendly and has obvious design issues. You shouldn't just accept what Apple says is best. They aren't always right and sometimes have to be told by their customers that they expect better.
Look at it this way:
If the butterfly keyboards didn't stick and repeat, everybody would have adapted to them by now and nobody would be talking about how terrible they are. Without the stick-and-repeating keys this wouldn't be a topic on the forums.
Years ago, you'd see posts about liquid damage to the keyboards. Those users who had liquid spills changed their habits and became much more careful with liquids around their laptops.
But you never saw posts about dust ruining a keyboard. People who had laptops years ago--and had no problems with the previous keyboard design--are doing the same things with the new laptops that they did with their old laptops. Except, lo and behold, the new keyboard design is exceptionally fragile. What presented no problems with their previous keyboards all of a sudden brings about a hugely expensive repair if you don't have Applecare.
That's called bad design. Especially coming from the previous keyboard which was considered top of the line.
Sticking with a bad design is called idiocy.
Defending a bad design goes beyond idiocy.
If the butterfly keyboards didn't stick and repeat, everybody would have adapted to them by now and nobody would be talking about how terrible they are. Without the stick-and-repeating keys this wouldn't be a topic on the forums.
Years ago, you'd see posts about liquid damage to the keyboards. Those users who had liquid spills changed their habits and became much more careful with liquids around their laptops.
But you never saw posts about dust ruining a keyboard. People who had laptops years ago--and had no problems with the previous keyboard design--are doing the same things with the new laptops that they did with their old laptops. Except, lo and behold, the new keyboard design is exceptionally fragile. What presented no problems with their previous keyboards all of a sudden brings about a hugely expensive repair if you don't have Applecare.
That's called bad design. Especially coming from the previous keyboard which was considered top of the line.
Sticking with a bad design is called idiocy.
Defending a bad design goes beyond idiocy.
One of my previous jobs was in serviceability engineering. This job was to design and write tools to help diagnose problems in the field. I really don't see much about this type of job these days. It seems that Apple doesn't really know what the problem is and maybe some design thought into diagnosing problems - or some component analysis, would have helped them diagnose the real problem(s) sooner.
Naw, he's just a meaningless person to me. He has no expertise in the subject, his opinion has no value to me. Why would it? He's a comedian, and he's not very good at that. People worship on the alter of fame and celebrity. Blah.
He's an Apple customer and that's all that matters. He doesn't have to have expertise on the subject to know he doesn't like it.
Exactly, smart industrial design does not result in highly divisive products with questionable reliability. As time passes the issue is only going to gain ever more traction...
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I see the opposite, where people are complacent with degrading quality of products and services, reduced ability to control or repair products, etc...
Also, the flipside to complaining about what you consider to be such a small change (it isn't) would be that the change is too small to be worthwhile.
Typing this on a 2017 MBP. I've only had it about 6 months and no failures yet but even after trying to like it (and thinking the keyboard felt fine when testing at the apple store) I've come to the conclusion that the keyboard just isn't great to type on. I LOVE the magic keyboard and type on this every day at work. I was hopeful that the butterfly keyboard would be similar but just a bit more shallow. But it really isn't. It is an entirely different far inferior typing experience.
I definitely prefer Magic Keyboard >> 2015 MBP keyboard >>>>>>> 2017 MBP keyboard. And I say this as someone who does NOT like my 2015 MBP (for work) at all. I actually really like my 2017 MBP, but the keyboard is noisy (I knew that going in) and just not something I've gotten used to. It is really easy to make typos because of the lack of travel.
I definitely prefer Magic Keyboard >> 2015 MBP keyboard >>>>>>> 2017 MBP keyboard. And I say this as someone who does NOT like my 2015 MBP (for work) at all. I actually really like my 2017 MBP, but the keyboard is noisy (I knew that going in) and just not something I've gotten used to. It is really easy to make typos because of the lack of travel.
In other words, you’re speculating like the rest of us.
Btw, I never said it was the low-level engineers that are pushing something, I meant their leadership. My wording may have been bad - I wasn’t talking about some democracy, only that we think it’s one or two men making all the decisions, and that’s not true. The point is: we mention Jony Ive because he’s a designer and we know of him. But we don’t really know who is responsible for this new keyboard.
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Genuinely curious: how does travel influence typos? I’ve heard this said before but I don’t get it.
Exactly, that's one of my contentions. I'm paying almost 3k for a machine and I have to adjust to it, and at best, I can only tolerate the keyboard. I'm not knocking those folks who enjoy typing on it, but my gut tells me that they're in the minority.
That's my experience, all I know strongly dislike the Butterfly Keyboard to the point of switching platform. Problem being there's no other option with Apple, as I've said before never seen so many drop the Mac.
Keyboard is intrinsic to the usability of a notebook, to be frank in this context $300 base notebooks offer a better user experience than the MBP currently does.
I've a $650 Acer Switch 5 that I opted for over an Android or IOS device (desktop OS) and it's keyboard is far superior to the MBP, nor do I have any concerns of it failing...
Switch 5 replaced a 12" MacBook and it's atrocious keyboard. I for one don't expect such poor quality from a premium provider. The Acer has it's own design quirks, equally it has never let me down. Something Apple needs to be thinking far more about...
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