Jony Ive "hears" your macbook criticism

[recoil80]

Try “convincing” apple about that decision....

I understand the “thought” about dropping the MagSafe (not saying I agree), just like “advancing” the headphone jack....(did not agree), but understand their reasoning...

But...in “real” world usage...their decisions might not be the “best” solution...at least right now.

The thought about eliminating the MagSafe (I believe) has to do with when you are using battery power. Why not have a port that has dual functions? Power and another function instead of JUST a MagSafe port for ONLY power? Of course I don’t agree, but...

Conceptionally, it sounds good...but practically it does not work well, especially with MacBook Pro users who usually do power intense stuff and will use the power cord instead of being on battery. Might work with a MacBook Air or MacBook, but not for a power user who needs electricity to power (let’s say) Logic or Final Cut Pr X, Motion or Compressor etc...for long periods of time. Just the other day while “working” if I was not using a MagSafe power adapter...the laptop would have flown across the room when someone walked bye...

Current laptops are not designed for a work environment...just “playing”

I like the idea of being able to power my MBP on any port, because I can attach it on both sides. My MBA had the MagSafe and I loved it, but it was on the left hand side of the laptop and sometimes the power plug was on the right so it wasn't really convenient.
USB-C is a good choice, just like lighting its reversible so you just plug in the cable and you're done, even for charging.
MagSafe on USB-C would be great and there are third party accessories to deliver something similar, but you have a dongle attached to your Mac, not as convenient as the original MagSafe. And it would be dangerous for peripherals, an external disk connected via MagSafe could be easily disconnected while reading or writing stuff, so I don't think it is a viable option.

Anyway I'm happy with my 2016 MBP with TB but I can see why some people still prefer the 2015 version with USB-A ports, MagSafe and the SD reader.
Apple doesn't like to have tons of models on the lineup, so they don't make an improved version of the "old style" MBP for customers who still like USB-A and the MagSafe. Maybe a better solution would have been making an "hybrid" Mac similar to the 2015 model with USB-C instead of Thunderbolt 2 ports, but Apple if notorious for making big jumps when it comes to adopting new standards, so it was all USB-C, take it or leave it.

 

[leman]

The thought about eliminating the MagSafe (I believe) has to do with when you are using battery power. Why not have a port that has dual functions? Power and another function instead of JUST a MagSafe port for ONLY power? Of course I don’t agree, but...

Conceptionally, it sounds good...but practically it does not work well, especially with MacBook Pro users who usually do power intense stuff and will use the power cord instead of being on battery.

Quote in contrary. To seem to forget that the port supports parallel multi-use. When I get to my office, I need to plug in a single cable to get charging, a 4K monitor output, an external backup disk, a full-size external keyboard and a ethernet connection. I can't imagine anything more convenient for the power user actually.

Not to mention the added comfort if you need to travel a lot work wise. With multi-purpose port you can charge on any port, which means that you don't need to wrap the carving cable around in the most awkward fashion if the outlet happens to be on the wrong side. Which it usually is if you need to work on train or are visiting a conference.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

If that is the case..then they will continue to press "forward" with their directives.

From what Tim says...sales are good, so say goodbye to practicality...

Depends what you consider practical, many many people will see being able to plug any peripheral or charger into any port as eminently practical, as with size and weight the smaller and lighter it is the more likely you are to have it with you and therefore the more practical as a mobile computer it is(the best laptop is the one you can be bothered to carry around), the touch bar is a great replacement for function keys that a great many users just don’t use, I know I never use them myself. Even the escape key is a once a month thing for me. The fastest I/O available on a laptop makes them great with a dock or any external monitor. Not to mention P3 colour gamut for video and 500 nits of brightness.

The new machines are far more practical as a laptop than anything Apple has made before, they may not be the most practical for attaching to legacy equipment or repair (although portable one cable docks and dongles combining all you legacy port needs in one is eminently more practical if you ask me but there you go) or upgrade, but that is not what Apple is selling they are selling a mobile computing solution and their macbooks are spot on for that.

 

[SarcasticJoe]

I somehow doubt they're going to really rectify the keyboard or get rid of the useless gimmick that known simply as the "touch bar".

Hell, I'm so confident about their unwillingness to do anything about this that I went and got a second hand rMBP from before they came out with the first touch bar model.

 

[Mr. Dee]

So all those defending the flawed changes like its normal, there you have it from horses mouth himself. So, stop acting like everything about the new MacBook Pro's are normal and perfect, especially the keyboard.

 

[c0ppo]

Before I buy a new MacBook Pro I want 2 things, magsafe and a keyboard that travels.

I think that we will see no changes at all, and that Sir Jony and Timmy boy are just trolling us.

 

[Nismo73]

At the minimum I’d would like:
-SD card slot
-add mag safe back
-keep touchbar but make regular escape key
-make one of the C ports an A

 

[leman]

So all those defending the flawed changes like its normal, there you have it from horses mouth himself. So, stop acting like everything about the new MacBook Pro's are normal and perfect, especially the keyboard.

Just because you don't like a particular change cause of your specific need and use doesn't make this change "flawed". Any real problem (e.g. keyboard reliability) will be of course fixed as the hardware evolves.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

So all those defending the flawed changes like its normal, there you have it from horses mouth himself. So, stop acting like everything about the new MacBook Pro's are normal and perfect, especially the keyboard.

Again, listen to the actual recording... Nowhere does he say anything about Apple computers being flawed. The bit the article is referencing is about 43 minutes if you're at all interested in taking things within context.

 

[theluggage]

When I get to my office, I need to plug in a single cable to get charging, a 4K monitor output, an external backup disk, a full-size external keyboard and a ethernet connection.

...via a $300 Thunderbolt 3 dock (cheaper USB-C docks can't handle 4k@60Hz and USB 3 speeds at the same time) - or two of them if you commute your MacBook between home and work desks. Or, if you don't have a dock/multiport adapter to hand, you now have to "waste" one of your measly 2-4 TB3 ports for charging. Want to plug in an external display, hard drive and charge? 2015 rMBP: no problem. 2017 non-TB MBP: forget it if you don't have a hub. Even with 4 ports: Power, ext. drive, ext. display, mouse... then someone hands you a USB stick and it's dock time.

Sorry, but combining multiple, unrelated functions into one plug may be a necessity on a phone or tablet (the one place Apple isn't pushing USB-C) but its stupid on something like a 15" pro laptop.

Anyway, why the obsession with one cable? At work, my old MacBook Pro plugs in to a 27" LED Cinema display via 3 plugs (MagSafe, DisplayPort and USB). It takes about 3 seconds. Thunderbolt 1/2 reduces that to 2 cables.

...but lets suppose that you do want a single-cable docking solution: how exactly would keeping the MagSafe port stop you from doing that? Nobody is suggesting that the new MBP shouldn't have had TB3/USB-C ports in place of the old TB2 ports, just that it was premature to throw out all the other ports. The iMac shows how to do it.

I think the other problem is that Apple have messed up their product line-up: the new MacBook Pros make sense as an ultra-mobile Macbook range for those who value extreme portability, but the MacBook Pro should be built for power and versatility over size and weight. It's not like the 2015 rMBP was a brick - it just needed a CPU/GPU refresh and, yes, TB3/USB-C ports in place of the 2 TB2 ports.

As for sales, given that the 2016 MBPs were launched after an 18 month wait for new MBPs, of course there was a surge in sales revenue (not to mention sales of the Air and 2015 MBP, or the price hike which could easily have produced increased revenue from reduced sales volume). If there hadn't been, Tim Cook would have been handed his pink slip last Christmas. Short term, Apple have a captive market - switching to Windows is a big, scary deal for many - the proof of the pudding will be what happens a year or two down the line, e.g. when people who bought 2014-2015 rMBPs would normally start thinking about upgrading, and we find out what the long-term reliability of those 2016 keyboards is really like...

 

[Since1987]

If Apple does end up making cars. I assume Ive will remove the "reverse" gear and all the apologists will agree.

"Mathematically, the reverse gear is a feature that users barely use. Compared to the forward gears."

Of course this mantra is just a lie so he can remove all ports and features. Everybody used MagSafe and 99% complained when it was removed. And did the richest company in the world provide a free USB-C to MagSafe adapter..... NO!!

Next big removal will be the Lightning port on the phones. Wireless Charging only. Wireless headphones ( by Beats! ) only. I am NOT kidding.

 

[Naimfan]

The new machines are far more practical as a laptop than anything Apple has made before . . .

The reality distortion field is strong in this one . . .

 

[r.harris1]

So all those defending the flawed changes like its normal, there you have it from horses mouth himself. So, stop acting like everything about the new MacBook Pro's are normal and perfect, especially the keyboard.

The new MacBook Pros are certainly not perfect, but if there are those of us who happen to appreciate things about them, don't equate us with "defending flawed changes". That would be the equivalent of us saying you were stuck in the past and unwilling to move forward, which I expect you'd dispute (and rightfully so).

Personally, I love the one port to rule them all concept and think it's the right way forward. Monitors, storage, external GPUs all off of one port. Awesome. MagSafe certainly had its place and I'd love to see an equivalent brought back into play, but not a top priority for me. SD slot, even as a photographer, wasn't ever something I used since my cameras tend to either not have SD slots at all, or a mixture of SD/CompactFlash/XQD so I needed to dongle-up on that front anyway. From the photography use case, I'd rather see camera companies - at least Nikon in my case - get modern with top/better quality WiFi/Bluetooth transfer to be honest.

Keyboard definitely needs to get better - I actually like typing on them but I find them (from personal and expensive experience) to be remarkably fragile and you can't effectively replace a single key without running the risk of breaking it (not to mention single key replacement isn't something Apple supports). As far as the touch pad, I'd either like to see the "touch escape key" moved over to the left so that it would physically be close to where it would be on a normal keyboard, or add the physical escape key back. That aside, I like to the touch pad and I expect it's there to test out e-ink style keyboard functionality for later, an idea I like, but would need tactile response, among other things.
[doublepost=1512394476][/doublepost]

The reality distortion field is strong in this one . . .

So if people like the new machines, its a reality distortion field? Isn't that a bit over the top?

 

[Since1987]

In the past month, i know two people who needed a new MacBook Pro.

They both bought the 2015 model, because it's for WORK not for play. That's why the MacBook PRO theoretically exists. We've been saying for years that Apple is turning all their products into toys. Now we have people in this very thread saying... "Yes they did... and that's a GOOD thing"

Be assured, IF Ive is listening... it's only to what Dr. Dre is saying. ( "Kill the headphone jack so people will have to buy some new wireless headphones from Beats". "Kill iTunes so people will finally start using Apple Music" )
[doublepost=1512395719][/doublepost]

So if people like the new machines, its a reality distortion field? Isn't that a bit over the top?

No, it's not. That person said they were the best portables Apple has ever made. Only a tiny minority buy into that.

That's why it's not going to get better at Apple. The massive amounts of complaints over new products aren't generated by ingrates or complainers.... they are caused by the products !! Nobody at Apple will ever admit this.

And just a reminder to all the teenagers out there. It didn't used to be this way. It used to be that Jobs would release a product, everybody would be blown away, and the only people who complained were in Redmond. Now the people in Redmond throw a party everytime new Apple products are announced and remain suspiciously silent. Sir Ive is driving more customers to Windows than Balmer ever did.

 

[Ries]

Quote in contrary. To seem to forget that the port supports parallel multi-use. When I get to my office, I need to plug in a single cable to get charging, a 4K monitor output, an external backup disk, a full-size external keyboard and a ethernet connection. I can't imagine anything more convenient for the power user actually.

Not to mention the added comfort if you need to travel a lot work wise. With multi-purpose port you can charge on any port, which means that you don't need to wrap the carving cable around in the most awkward fashion if the outlet happens to be on the wrong side. Which it usually is if you need to work on train or are visiting a conference.

Let me blow your mind! You can have a Macbook Pro with all those things and still have a macsafe/hdmi/usb-A connector on the laptop. USB-C/TB3 ports and those ports can coexist. Apple just chose not to do that and opted to sell you dongles to maximize profits instead.

 

[leman]

I think the other problem is that Apple have messed up their product line-up: the new MacBook Pros make sense as an ultra-mobile Macbook range for those who value extreme portability, but the MacBook Pro should be built for power and versatility over size and weight. It's not like the 2015 rMBP was a brick - it just needed a CPU/GPU refresh and, yes, TB3/USB-C ports in place of the 2 TB2 ports.

And the 2016 refresh is more powerful and versatile then any MacBook Pro before it ever was, and its also more portable at the same time. You can connect it to basically any existing interface, provided you have an appropriate adapter. "Versatility" doesn't mean that it has to come with every existing port out of the box. There is no laptop currently on the market that more versatile than the MBP with its 8x (or even 16x?) PCI-e 3.0 lanes of external IO.

What you are criticising is not versatility, its out-of-box support for your use case. I think its important to maintain a strict separation of these concepts. The best modular screwdriver in the world is useless if you don't have an appropriate screwdriver head, but its much more versatile than a screwdriver with a fixed head. With the symmetrical, no compromise TB3 implementation of MBP, you are getting ultimate versatility at the cost of increased expenses for interface adaptors. Is this trade-off worthwhile? I don't think this question can be answered generally. Hence the divide here in the forums. Some people, like me, have the cash to invest into this versatility, some just don't care because they barely use any external devices, and some have an existing environment to support and are not willing (or can't afford) to upgrade their connectivity hardware (cables, hubs etc.)

Anyway, why the obsession with one cable? At work, my old MacBook Pro plugs in to a 27" LED Cinema display via 3 plugs (MagSafe, DisplayPort and USB). It takes about 3 seconds. Thunderbolt 1/2 reduces that to 2 cables.

Because its convenient. The context of my post that you quote was the other poster's claim that universal ports are useless in a pro environment. I merely showed that this is not the case. Sure, practical advantage over a two-cable setup are minimal, except of course the fact that you don't need to have your dedicated charger with USB-C/TB3 since the charging can be provided by the hub or the display.

...but lets suppose that you do want a single-cable docking solution: how exactly would keeping the MagSafe port stop you from doing that? Nobody is suggesting that the new MBP shouldn't have had TB3/USB-C ports in place of the old TB2 ports, just that it was premature to throw out all the other ports.

Of course the MagSafe wouldn't stop TB3 ports from being useful, its exactly the other way around. With TB3, there is no point for MagSafe. You trade a fancy magnetic latch (that doesn't really work reliably with light laptops anymore to begin with) for a universal standard-compliant charger that can be plugged in any of your existing ports. This "bring back MagSafe" thing is just laughable. Apple finally gives you the ability to use third-party, standard charging and of course, people complain.

As for sales, given that the 2016 MBPs were launched after an 18 month wait for new MBPs, of course there was a surge in sales revenue

But its not just a "surge". That would imply that people would buy the laptops after waiting and then stop buying them at some point. However, the entirety of 2017 saw rather strong Mac sales.
[doublepost=1512397226][/doublepost]

Let me blow your mind! You can have a Macbook Pro with all those things and still have a macsafe/hdmi/usb-A connector on the laptop. USB-C/TB3 ports and those ports can coexist. Apple just chose not to do that and opted to sell you dongles to maximize profits instead.

Of course they can. Only they'd be redundant (also see what I wrote above if interested in my opinion). And about dongles, oh please. We are talking about industry-standard USB interface here. Apple doesn't even make that many adapters for it. The vast majority of our interface adapters come from vendors such as Belkin and friends. Apple was maximising profit with dongles when they were relying on proprietary protected connectors such as Magsafe, Mini-DP and Mini-DVI.

All those things are over now. What you get is a completely standard USB with PCI-e (TB3) extension. Meaning that anyone on the market can make stuff for it. I find it rather amusing that all the "Apple just wants to sell you dongles" crowd ignores the fact that Apple got rid of all the proprietary ports on their machines.

 

[c0ppo]

But its not just a "surge". That would imply that people would buy the laptops after waiting and then stop buying them at some point. However, the entirety of 2017 saw rather strong Mac sales.

Where do you get your info from? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually wondering about your statements since not even Apple has released sales numbers for 16/17 version. But maybe I'm mistaken. Not the end of the world. So please, give me more info on those facts you write about.

 

[SarcasticJoe]

If Apple does end up making cars. I assume Ive will remove the "reverse" gear and all the apologists will agree.

"Mathematically, the reverse gear is a feature that users barely use. Compared to the forward gears."

Apple getting into cars is actually a genuinely scary thought.

Can you imagine what would happen if Apple captured the BMW driver market and started making decisions on what to keep and what not to keep based on feedback from BMW drivers? Because the indicators are probably just the first thing they'd get rid of...

Even if they don't do something as stupid as start listening to BMW driver feedback, can you imagine what an apple car will be like? Forget about not having a spare wheel, an Apple car will probably have the rims literally welded in place. Non-dealer service will be an absolute no-no, every part that can be proprietary will be so that you can't just go and buy new headlight lamps, fuses or spark plugs and install them yourself, useless gimmicks will be standard features, ground clearance will probably be measured in millimeters and neither the doors or the bonnet can be opened if it breaks down.

 

[PhoneI]

I somehow doubt they're going to really rectify the keyboard or get rid of the useless gimmick that known simply as the "touch bar".

Hell, I'm so confident about their unwillingness to do anything about this that I went and got a second hand rMBP from before they came out with the first touch bar model.

I hope they don't 'rectify' the keyboard because I much prefer the new one to the old one.

I don't love the TouchBar, but I didn't love my old function keys either.
[doublepost=1512398725][/doublepost]

In the past month, i know two people who needed a new MacBook Pro.

They both bought the 2015 model, because it's for WORK not for play. That's why the MacBook PRO theoretically exists. We've been saying for years that Apple is turning all their products into toys. Now we have people in this very thread saying... "Yes they did... and that's a GOOD thing"

Damn, I didn't get the memo. Here I am, using my 2017 Macbook Pro for work. Best laptop I ever owned.

 

[shaunp]

I've bashed Apple a lot for their hardware design choices over the past couple of years, and I have moved over to a PC laptop as I had no other choice. I am however still interested in what they design next if they are hearing what the customer is saying. When the next Mac Pro and MacBook Pro are released it will be very telling as to the future direction of Apple. They don't need to wow me and provide things I never thought I needed, I think that's for consumer products, what I would like is a stable, expandable, high-performance platform for Mac OS without any frills or gimmicks. For me cosmetic design comes after performance, functionality and expandability.

 

[r.harris1]

In the past month, i know two people who needed a new MacBook Pro.

They both bought the 2015 model, because it's for WORK not for play. That's why the MacBook PRO theoretically exists. We've been saying for years that Apple is turning all their products into toys. Now we have people in this very thread saying... "Yes they did... and that's a GOOD thing"

Be assured, IF Ive is listening... it's only to what Dr. Dre is saying. ( "Kill the headphone jack so people will have to buy some new wireless headphones from Beats". "Kill iTunes so people will finally start using Apple Music" )
[doublepost=1512395719][/doublepost]

No, it's not. That person said they were the best portables Apple has ever made. Only a tiny minority buy into that.

That's why it's not going to get better at Apple. The massive amounts of complaints over new products aren't generated by ingrates or complainers.... they are caused by the products !! Nobody at Apple will ever admit this.

And just a reminder to all the teenagers out there. It didn't used to be this way. It used to be that Jobs would release a product, everybody would be blown away, and the only people who complained were in Redmond. Now the people in Redmond throw a party everytime new Apple products are announced and remain suspiciously silent. Sir Ive is driving more customers to Windows than Balmer ever did.

As a most definite non-teenager and a long time, heavy Apple product user, I seem to remember a lot of product launches where there was a lot of criticism over the years from users since one of the defining things about the company is cheese-moving: software, hardware or both. Granted, since the user base has expanded, criticism is up. And there's certainly merit in some of the criticism, believe me. But nostalgia is a very dangerous thing.

 

[leman]

Where do you get your info from? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually wondering about your statements since not even Apple has released sales numbers for 16/17 version. But maybe I'm mistaken. Not the end of the world. So please, give me more info on those facts you write about.

They didn't release concrete numbers for the specific models AFAIK, but I think those can be interpolated from the financial data statements which list Mac unit sales. It makes sence to assume that the overall proportions of computer types are comparable. Of course, one could argue that the strong Mac sales are due to Apple selling more iMacs or MacBook Airs, but thats again a rather specific claim that would require further substantiation.

Reasons why I believe that 2016/2017 models are selling well based on the financial data disclosed by Apple: a) no decline of Mac unit sales (we actually see strong performance over the entire year) and b) increase in revenue-per-unit sold, which means that a lot of revenue is coming from more expensive computers. The last point is why I don't believe that these sale numbers are coming from cheaper "legacy" models cannibalising the 2016/2017 MBP.
[doublepost=1512399331][/doublepost]

For me cosmetic design comes after performance, functionality and expandability.

Well said. Thats why I am still buying Apple. They are not sacrificing performance or functionality unlike majority of other vendors (who downgrade CPUs and use cheap IO and WIFI controllers etc. for the purpose of marketing and increased margins).

 

[macintoshmac]

Just to be a little light-hearted, hearing what users are saying, and doing what users want are two different things.. boy, do we hear! Oh yes, we hear; but what do we do? What we want to do!

 

[shaunp]

Depends what you consider practical, many many people will see being able to plug any peripheral or charger into any port as eminently practical, as with size and weight the smaller and lighter it is the more likely you are to have it with you and therefore the more practical as a mobile computer it is(the best laptop is the one you can be bothered to carry around), the touch bar is a great replacement for function keys that a great many users just don’t use, I know I never use them myself. Even the escape key is a once a month thing for me. The fastest I/O available on a laptop makes them great with a dock or any external monitor. Not to mention P3 colour gamut for video and 500 nits of brightness.

The new machines are far more practical as a laptop than anything Apple has made before, they may not be the most practical for attaching to legacy equipment or repair (although portable one cable docks and dongles combining all you legacy port needs in one is eminently more practical if you ask me but there you go) or upgrade, but that is not what Apple is selling they are selling a mobile computing solution and their macbooks are spot on for that.

The port thing annoys me a bit, but I get it - it's the future. I think there should have been an interim phase though where at least a couple of legacy ports existed along side USB-C/TB3. Also I travel a lot so the whole concept of having a single cable that I can use as a docking station is lost on me. I'd rather just have legacy ports so I don't have to carry adaptors.

What I don't get though is making the machine so thin. It looks pretty but it doesn't do it for me. I don't like keyboards with no travel (Apple now only do thin keyboards, there is no choice), I would like to be able to add RAM and Storage at a later date, not have to buy the highest spec at time of purchase. There's also the issue that the SSD is soldered on - I cannot get my data off it if the machine breaks, even if it's just to wipe the SSD before it goes in for service. And RAM is limited to 16GB, which if you run a lot of VM's isn't enough. This is because low power RAM is used to save battery. If the machine was bigger a bigger battery could be used and standard RAM could be used to increase the amount of supported RAM. Add to that the lack of a matte screen option and no option to not have function keys instead of the touch bar and it just doesn't work for me.
[doublepost=1512399847][/doublepost][QUOTE="Well said. Thats why I am still buying Apple. They are not sacrificing performance or functionality unlike majority of other vendors (who downgrade CPUs and use cheap IO and WIFI controllers etc. for the purpose of marketing and increased margins).[/QUOTE]

Performance is okay, but they are definitely sacrificing functionality. Show me option for 32GB RAM on the config page for the MacBook Pro. There's a load of other things I would like in a MBP, but more than 16GB RAM is an absolute.

 

[AmazingRobie]

Will they really bring back any the following?
- one or two USB 3.0 type A ports
- the "classic" keyboard keys
- real function keys
- magsafe
- upgradable RAM
- user-accessible storage (SATA/M.2/etc)
- user-swappable battery
- non-glossy displays

Because that's what most people are complaining about.

Absolutely not. Changing anything backwards would imply they were incorrect which they cannot admit because it would cast doubt on every advancement going forward. They're just going to say they hear the criticisms and ignore them, spin them with some new marketing or say that they've upgraded the experience with some new "feature" essentially glossing over the concerns as they sell another quarters worth of units knowing that the negative chatter will eventually fade again as its a cycle for them and most disgruntled users will either die, migrate to other operating systems or realize the futility of their efforts and remain silent.