Jony Ive "hears" your macbook criticism

[Samuelsan2001]

The port thing annoys me a bit, but I get it - it's the future. I think there should have been an interim phase though where at least a couple of legacy ports existed along side USB-C/TB3. Also I travel a lot so the whole concept of having a single cable that I can use as a docking station is lost on me. I'd rather just have legacy ports so I don't have to carry adaptors.

What I don't get though is making the machine so thin. It looks pretty but it doesn't do it for me. I don't like keyboards with no travel (Apple now only do thin keyboards, there is no choice), I would like to be able to add RAM and Storage at a later date, not have to buy the highest spec at time of purchase. There's also the issue that the SSD is soldered on - I cannot get my data off it if the machine breaks, even if it's just to wipe the SSD before it goes in for service. And RAM is limited to 16GB, which if you run a lot of VM's isn't enough. This is because low power RAM is used to save battery. If the machine was bigger a bigger battery could be used and standard RAM could be used to increase the amount of supported RAM. Add to that the lack of a matte screen option and no option to not have function keys instead of the touch bar and it just doesn't work for me.
[doublepost=1512399847][/doublepost][QUOTE="Well said. Thats why I am still buying Apple. They are not sacrificing performance or functionality unlike majority of other vendors (who downgrade CPUs and use cheap IO and WIFI controllers etc. for the purpose of marketing and increased margins).

Performance is okay, but they are definitely sacrificing functionality. Show me option for 32GB RAM on the config page for the MacBook Pro. There's a load of other things I would like in a MBP, but more than 16GB RAM is an absolute.[/QUOTE]

The explanation for lack of 32gb options has been given on here ad infinitum and was released by apple when the 2016 model was released, so I won't repeat it again use google. You may not accept apple wanting an inbuilt LPDDR4 controller to save power heat and weight in their laptops but that is why they went with 16GB maximum. I personally think they will have to offer 32gb whatever next year so you will get your wish but as the chipsets with inbuilt LPDDR4 controllers are still not to be available they may have to compromise their design and battery life to include it. Something they have been dead set against.

 

[theluggage]

There is no laptop currently on the market that more versatile than the MBP with its 8x (or even 16x?) PCI-e 3.0 lanes of external IO.

What you are criticising is not versatility, its out-of-box support for your use case.

...and you are confusing "versatility" with "raw power". Do you even have a "use case" for needing "16 x PCI-e 3.0 lanes of external IO" on a machine with a thermally-limited CPU, a mobile-class GPU and limited battery capacity?

"Versatility" doesn't mean that it has to come with every existing port out of the box.

No, and nobody expects it to come with "every existing port" - don't be ridiculous. However, it is simply delusional to think that requiring an adapter to connect to USB-A, the single most ubiquitous connector in use, as included in the vast majority of currently-shipping IT products, is in any way "versatile".

The best modular screwdriver in the world is useless if you don't have an appropriate screwdriver head, but its much more versatile than a screwdriver with a fixed head.

...really? If I knew that 90% of the screws I encountered were number 3 crossheads, I'd damn well carry a fixed number 3 crosshead screwdriver alongside the modular one so I only had to faff around changing heads when I had to, and I could keep the modular free for undoing any odd-sized screws I came across.

 

[c0ppo]

They didn't release concrete numbers for the specific models AFAIK, but I think those can be interpolated from the financial data statements which list Mac unit sales

Indeed, they didn't. And of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but you stated that as a fact.
Opinions/feelings ≠ facts. Never have been. Never will be.

It makes sence to assume that the overall proportions of computer types are comparable.

Actually, only thing that makes sense is the sales numbers. Everything else is just your own opinion. It can be true, but it can be false as well. No one can know which is it. Not even you.

So please, if you have an opinion or a feeling - express that. Not a problem.
But expressing opinion or a feeling as a fact is a problem. Because it isn't a fact.

 

[turbineseaplane]

So....

"Make it Thinner"

amirite?

 

[SteveJUAE]

The practical battery life is unchanged (or improved) from earlier generation. So whats the real issue? Apple's design goal is 8-10 hours battery life (which is an optimal value in many regards, since it gives you a full working day on a charge), and not "as much battery as possible".
.

I'm not sure what your doing for "a full working day" but by Apples own metrics the relatively low % of professionals using macs I would hazard a guess most don't get a full day on batteries. Sure for the target audience doing some dailies, surfing and video/YouTube then yes, working professionals probably not and are hooked up to power.

They didn't release concrete numbers for the specific models AFAIK, but I think those can be interpolated from the financial data statements which list Mac unit sales. It makes sence to assume that the overall proportions of computer types are comparable. Of course, one could argue that the strong Mac sales are due to Apple selling more iMacs or MacBook Airs, but thats again a rather specific claim that would require further substantiation.

Reasons why I believe that 2016/2017 models are selling well based on the financial data disclosed by Apple: a) no decline of Mac unit sales (we actually see strong performance over the entire year) and b) increase in revenue-per-unit sold, which means that a lot of revenue is coming from more expensive computers. The last point is why I don't believe that these sale numbers are coming from cheaper "legacy" models cannibalising the 2016/2017 MBP.
[doublepost=1512399331][/doublepost]

.

For those that want draw their own conclusions based on actual data (see below) as you seem to have some points wrong eg sales with a surprising decline in 2017 Q4 over Q1 and 2016 seemed a mixed year

Too many guesses to be conclusive re seasonal differences, inflation or increased prices and model release dates IMO
(appol's for any typos in advance)

 

[shaunp]

Performance is okay, but they are definitely sacrificing functionality. Show me option for 32GB RAM on the config page for the MacBook Pro. There's a load of other things I would like in a MBP, but more than 16GB RAM is an absolute.

The explanation for lack of 32gb options has been given on here ad infinitum and was released by apple when the 2016 model was released, so I won't repeat it again use google. You may not accept apple wanting an inbuilt LPDDR4 controller to save power heat and weight in their laptops but that is why they went with 16GB maximum. I personally think they will have to offer 32gb whatever next year so you will get your wish but as the chipsets with inbuilt LPDDR4 controllers are still not to be available they may have to compromise their design and battery life to include it. Something they have been dead set against.[/QUOTE]

You are right, I don't accept it. Especially when every other manufacturer has managed to do it years ago. Apple just look dumb by using LPDDR RAM so their laptop can be that bit thinner, especially given the price of the MBP.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Removed

 

[ZapNZs]

Dropping MagSafe was a backwards move.

Going to USB-C was a forward-thinking move (no more overpriced MagSafe cables that are overly delicate)...but not incorporating the MagSafe technology alongside USB-C makes no sense at all.

If Apple can make a self-driving car, I have to believe they can make a USB-C cable with a built-in breakaway and magnetic attachment feature that functions reliably and is capable of gaining USB IF Certification. Heck, they can even incorporate it into the cable so the User can choose whether or not they want it.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Going to USB-C was a forward-thinking move (no more overpriced MagSafe cables that are overly delicate)...but not incorporating the MagSafe technology alongside USB-C makes no sense at all.

If Apple can make a self-driving car, I have to believe they can make a USB-C cable with a built-in breakaway and magnetic attachment feature that functions reliably and is capable of gaining USB IF Certification. Heck, they can even incorporate it into the cable so the User can choose whether or not they want it.

You are forgetting rule #1…
We are all wrong and everything Apple does is right and "the future" and "innovative" and "courageous"

 

[gobikerider]

Before you all get carried away, remember that is a news article that hugely takes things out of context. Listen to the actual link, 43 minutes. It was a single line during a conversation about Apple Park.

Yah but the fact that it even was a line I think speaks volumes.

 

[unsharptooth]

They did. Most modern cameras have WiFi.

So many of them work only with their own proprietary apps on mobile devices, and they're old standards to boot. Not even 802.11n.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

There's always one thing I'm always confused about when these clearly troll forums pop up and start another endless debate.

Most people who have a 2016/2017 are quite happy and enjoying their machines, for work or pleasure or whatnot.

Most people who hate the 2016/2016 are quite happy and enjoying their 2015 machines, for work or pleasure or whatnot.

Point being, what's the point? If you hate the 2016+ and ended up using a 2015 as it better suited your needs, then what's the problem exactly beyond disagreeing with the industrial design of the newer computer? If you needed a notebook to work, and have the 2015, and are working, then clearly you don't need the 2016 so it's all fine right? A lot of people seem invested in pretending that their life is over just because Apple released a thinner computer - when it just doesn't suit them. I think a lot of people simply want new computers, and were upset that it wasn't quite what they wanted. Or more likely was too expensive to justify upgrading for simply 'want', and I say that whenever I see anyone mention price as equating to expectations; "I paid $$$$ and it's not everything I dreamed of!" kind of threads - I'm always amazed by people who complain about the price at $1500 being too expensive for a MBP yet are the same people who are happy to pay $1200 for a damned phone that can do very little (Compared to MBP) beyond look flash in public, see?

It's getting to the point of arguing over sports teams now, everyones got an opinion of how their team should have played etc. Very few people actually understand or are qualified to understand the complexity and procedures involved. So it just comes down to an opinion, which cannot be changed, and crops up with the same arguments on every other thread.

I would absolutely love it if all you guys would start a little whiteboard and write down exactly what you want in a computer, see if you can come to a consensus on what you think is right or see if it descends into another argument. Heck if you do that, I'll happily do a 3D render for you to send to Apple.

 

[GtrDude]

But when they were making the MBP thinner and cutting away most of the ports and ruining the keyboard, to whom were they listening then?


http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-jony-ive-macbook-criticism-2017-12
[doublepost=1512447211][/doublepost]Just saw there's another thread with this.

 

[Naimfan]

My, my, my . . .

A rather transparent effort to close down debate. Are the criticisms hitting a blt too close to home? Because you could, you know, not inject yourself into them . . .

 

[leman]

...and you are confusing "versatility" with "raw power". Do you even have a "use case" for needing "16 x PCI-e 3.0 lanes of external IO" on a machine with a thermally-limited CPU, a mobile-class GPU and limited battery capacity?

Personally, I do not. I can imagine that there are people interested in ulilizing an external GPU + a bunch of 5K monitors + a hi-speed external connectivity for video editing etc. Again, versatility, as in supporting different use cases. The CPU would be ok with it btw. I find it less questionable than say, asking for 32 or 64GB of RAM on a machine with dual memory controller and 8MB of cache...

...really? If I knew that 90% of the screws I encountered were number 3 crossheads, I'd damn well carry a fixed number 3 crosshead screwdriver alongside the modular one so I only had to faff around changing heads when I had to, and I could keep the modular free for undoing any odd-sized screws I came across.

And you still be carrying two screwdrivers, no? Besides, if 90% of your external IO involves USB-A, sure, you have a point. Majority of my IO is external video out for beamers. And Apple's symmetrical design is a great help here. So again — everyone's use case is different. Apple supports all of them, with the condition that you take care of the "glue". I do see your point of course. We just have slightly different preferences as far as IO balance goes. I prefer having symmetrical multiports, since I can do more with them. I don't think there is a definite truth here.

 

[c0ppo]

@New_Mac_Smell

I don't want a 2015. I don't want a 2016/2017 version. What I do want is current cpu/gpu in a MBP.
And forums are used for exchanging opinions, and debating. So if you can't handle it, there is a rather simple solution - don't read this or similar threads. And I don't see people arguing, just exchanging ideas and opinions.

 

[leman]

Indeed, they didn't. And of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but you stated that as a fact.
Opinions/feelings ≠ facts. Never have been. Never will be.

Nothing I write is a fact, and even if I claimed that something is a fact I am critical enough to know better. Sorry if my post suggested something like it. I just find it cumbersome to explicitly annotate my opinions as opinions, since I think its rather obvious that all we write here are opinions.

Actually, only thing that makes sense is the sales numbers. Everything else is just your own opinion. It can be true, but it can be false as well.

Sure, but the data is subject to interpretation. Just as the term "fact" is abused, so is the term "opinion". I wrote why I tend to interpret the data in a certain way, based on certain observations. I don't think its constructive to dismiss it as a mere "opinion". If we constantly did that, we could throw all of the science out of the window (thats also just "opinions" in the end). If you have arguments to why my interpretation is wrong or what would be a better way to interpret the data, I'd be very interested in hearing this. After all, its all about probabilities. We have different hypotheses and based on the observable facts, we can assign them lower or higher plausibility scores. For me, my interpretation is more plausible than "new MBPs don't sell well", since my interpretation can explain the numbers and the other one can't.

 

[c0ppo]

@leman

Just for this occasion, I did a simple google search. And here are sales:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263444/sales-of-apple-mac-computers-since-first-quarter-2006/

As I see it, sales aren't up. At all. Of course, these are all macs, not just MBP. But then again, only one rather small burst in sales - Q1 2016. And not by much, but just a small percentage. And then sales decline compared to 2015 for example. And as surely you know, in 2015 Apple was selling outdated CPU and GPU in their macs.

Surely a redesigned MBP should sell better then old one? I really don't see that sales are good. Sales are going ok, but nothing good. And since we don't receive any numbers about how many sales of new MBP Apple actually makes, we simply can't know.

But all I do know is a few companies that banned purchases of new MBP because of the keyboard. If you work there, you can order a MBP. But not the 2016/17 version. And I do believe my own company will ban new MBP purchases as well. It will be sooner then later.

 

[Mildredop]

Dropping MagSafe was a backwards move.

I hate MagSafe with a passion. Too many times that I've plugged it in, put it down and only realised once I return that the MagSafe popped off a little bit and my Mac hasn't charged.

 

[Jaekae]

they added many more ports by using thunderbolt3 ports that can be any port you want..

 

[leman]

For those that want draw their own conclusions based on actual data (see below) as you seem to have some points wrong eg sales with a surprising decline in 2017 Q4 over Q1 and 2016 seemed a mixed year

Too many guesses to be conclusive re seasonal differences, inflation or increased prices and model release dates IMO
(appol's for any typos in advance)

View attachment 740189

Ah, thats a nice table, thanks for the data. I quickly made a little graph based on it. Please tell me f I messed up some release dates, had to hack them in via hand due to lack of time.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Worthwhile noting global PC sales when you're talking about this.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-quarter-2009-by-vendor/

 

[SarcasticJoe]

I hope they don't 'rectify' the keyboard because I much prefer the new one to the old one.

So there's nothing wrong with an unreliable keyboard that has so little tactile response it's like typing on an on-screen keyboard?

I can understand people liking other crap keyboards like the ones on the Sinclair ZX 80, ZX Spectrum and IBM PC Junior out of nostalgia, but not on a brand new product with no nostalgia value.

 

[William Payne]

after using one, I think the tactile response/feel of the new keyboard is going to very very much be a personal preference thing. I am keyboard agnostic so I must say I didn't hate it.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Ah, thats a nice table, thanks for the data. I quickly made a little graph based on it. Please tell me f I messed up some release dates, had to hack them in via hand due to lack of time.

Glad to be of service

Yes some surprising ups and down around release dates and end of year

I suggest you also map the average price, to see it there is a pattern match
[doublepost=1512470079][/doublepost]

It's getting to the point of arguing over sports teams now, everyones got an opinion of how their team should have played etc. Very few people actually understand or are qualified to understand the complexity and procedures involved. So it just comes down to an opinion, which cannot be changed, and crops up with the same arguments on every other thread.

Whilst I understand your analogy, the bottom line is we do not buy sports teams and certainly not on 14 days return

As ever we have the right to opt in or out of any debate regardless of skill or qualification level and we have seen staunch opinions changed here (eg CapatainRB) like it or lump it, we have a reasonable latitude and any alternative would be on the path to censorship

Lets move on and bicker about something else