Jony Ive Said to Be 'As Connected to Product Design as Ever' Following Speculation About His Role

[fchain]

Hope he stay in the company...I understand and sometimes share some discrepancy with some new products or evolutionary process...but this kind of discussions same happened while Steve alive...Apple always pushes the limits...and it worked, like it or not

 

[theluggage]

let's say you were going to design a computing system right now from a clean slate

...but that's irrelevant, because the potential users of this computer aren't starting from a clean slate. They have a lot of perfectly good peripherals that plug in through things like USB-A and HDMI, and in most cases there's been no revolution that makes it imperative to replace everything now. When someone hands me a USB stick, having to dig in my bag for an adapter is not better than plugging it straight in - and with even Apple not having adopted USB-C across their whole range yet its going to be years before that stops happening.

Nor is the computer itself sufficiently revolutionary to justify a "clean slate" approach - at heart, its pretty much the same as last year's model with incremental speed improvements. You can't compare this to the day you shoved your Apple II into the attic, threw the NTSC-resolution monitor into a dumpster and swapped your daisywheel for a laser because all the new stuff was an order of magnitude better.

Nobody is suggesting that Apple go to the extremes of the PC world, where PS/2, DVI, etc. are still hanging around complaining about the kids and USB ports come in at least 4 flavours (I had to buy a freaking VGA-to-DVI cable the other week for some PC hardware) and there's 1 of every port but 2 of nothing. Nor go the way of Microsoft where there's no USB-C, USB 3.1g2 or TB3 at all on the barely-released Surface stuff that everybody is drooling over.

However, treating the ubiquitous USB-A port as a "legacy" connector is a level of reality distortion that threatens the space-time continuum. Apple's designers had a very simple job to do: replace the guts of the 2015 rMBP with this year's chips and swap its 2xTB2 connectors for 2xTB3/USB-C. The 2016 MBP is a victory of designer lust over practicality.

 

[Rob_2811]

Honestly I think it might be a good time for him to go. The company is, I think, being increasingly pulled in directions that keep Ive happy.

I've heard that the real driver behind why the Watch actually happened was because it was the only thing on the table at the time that he showed any real interest in. The car project has clearly got Ive written all over it. He originally wanted to design cars, I believe that was his main motivation for getting into industrial design in the first place.

I'm not questioning the decision to investigate these markets I just think Apple needs to move in the direction that is right for them not the direction that is right for Jony Ive.

Its actually a bit concerning if Ive isn't going, I can maybe understand the book if it is Ives swan song but if not this kind of "look at all this great stuff we've done in the past" attitude is perhaps not the most helpful for a company that wants to stay innovative. I'm not sure Jobs would actually have approved either.

This is one of my favorite Jobs quotes:

"When I got back here in 1997, I was looking for more room, and I found an archive of old Macs and other stuff. I said, ‘Get it away!’ and I shipped all that **** off to Stanford. If you look backward in this business, you’ll be crushed. You have to look forward."

 

[citysnaps]

I

I know I am

I won't be replacing my aging Mac with a new one. I have the money set aside, but the new MBP does not any longer meet my idea of value.

I'm just one consumer, but what happens if there are a lot more like me?

Obviously it depends on the number like you. And whether it represents a customer base wide cross section, or, people on MR who have been complaining about every Apple announcement and product introduced since Jobs came back; the iMac, iPod, iPhone, iPad, various laptops, the Watch, Apple support, Apple stores, arranging disaster relief customer contributions, every strategic acquisition, every service Apple introduces, lack of "innovation," Apple's privacy stance with respect to AI, the content of every keynote, executive business/marketing trips to various countries, and every senior executive (Cook, Shiller, Ive, Ahrendts, Cue).

Getting back to your question, if it's the former (unhappiness over Apple's customer base), that's a serious issue. If the latter (unhappy MR and other tech forum contributors), it's mice nuts.

As Apple's last revenue guidance (which has been historically conservative) for Q1 2017 was between $76 billion and $78 billion, a substantial increase over last quarter's (Q4 2016) revenue of $46.9 billion, I'm going with the latter, and therefore believing Apple is overall doing just fine.

 

[Rob_2811]

Obviously it depends on the number like you. And whether it represents a customer base wide cross section, or, people on MR who have been complaining about every Apple announcement and product introduced since Jobs came back; the iMac, iPod, iPhone, iPad, various laptops, the Watch, Apple support, Apple stores, arranging disaster relief customer contributions, every strategic acquisition, every service Apple introduces, lack of "innovation," Apple's privacy stance with respect to AI, the content of every keynote, executive business/marketing trips to various countries, and every senior executive (Cook, Shiller, Ive, Ahrendts, Cue).

Getting back to your question, if it's the former (unhappiness over Apple's customer base), that's a serious issue. If the latter (unhappy MR and other tech forum contributors), it's mice nuts.

As Apple's last revenue guidance (which has been historically conservative) for Q1 2017 was between $76 billion and $78 billion, a substantial increase over last quarter's (Q4 2016) revenue of $46.9 billion, I'm going with the latter, and therefore believing Apple is overall doing just fine.

How much of that revenue is being brought in by the iPhone? 75%? More than that? Its certainly in that region. Apple are quickly becoming the iPhone company. The iPad is well and truly on the slide lowest sales numbers in five years and in some of the other businesses they've tried to get into they seem to be struggling (TV/Car).

When/if demand for the iPhone really starts to drop off, where do they go then? Has the slide already started? They reported their first drop in profits last quarter and iPhone sales down 5% from last year.

Yes they are still pulling in good numbers but the rot doesn't set in overnight and they have absolutely benefitted from the competition in their biggest market (Samsung) ******** the bed.

Honestly there is some reason for concern it isn't just some people whining on a forum, time will tell.

 

[alembic]

I think it is VERY obvious that Jobs was the real design visionary and that Jony turned those designs into reality. Not saying that Jony didn't do wonders in the past, but having a mentor like Steve Jobs was what made Jony Ive a great industrial designer, and it is obvious under Tim Cook's leadership he has floundered.

This assessment sums it up succinctly.

 

[citysnaps]

How much of that revenue is being brought in by the iPhone? 75%? More than that? Its certainly in that region. Apple are quickly becoming the iPhone company. The iPad is well and truly on the slide lowest sales numbers in five years and in some of the other businesses they've tried to get into they seem to be struggling (TV/Car).

When/if demand for the iPhone really starts to drop off, where do they go then? Has the slide already started? They reported their first drop in profits last quarter and iPhone sales down 5% from last year.

Yes they are still pulling in good numbers but the rot doesn't set in overnight and they have absolutely benefitted from the competition in their biggest market (Samsung) ******** the bed.

Honestly there is some reason for concern it isn't just some people whining on a forum, time will tell.

You can ask what-if questions till the cows come home. What if Ford sells less cars? What if there's a devastating earthquake? What if Apple sells more phones than ever before this quarter? And on and on.

Personally, Apple's performance isn't something I'm angsting about. I'll leave that to the unhappy armchair CEOs here who think they can do a better job running a successful $215 billion company and have been whining on every piece of Apple news that has come up on MR for years, along with the view that Apple is doomed. It's expected, though really kind of sad that a company has so much power over some peoples' lives.

 

[Rob_2811]

You can ask what-if questions till the cows come home. What if Ford sells less cars? What if there's a devastating earthquake? What if Apple sells more phones than ever before this quarter? And on and on.

Personally, Apple's performance isn't something I'm angsting about. I'll leave that to the unhappy armchair CEOs here who think they can do a better job running a successful $215 billion company and have been whining on every piece of Apple news that has come up on MR for years, along with the view that Apple is doomed. It's expected, though really kind of sad that a company has so much power over some peoples' lives.

Thats an awful analogy though because people will always need cars besides Ford has been selling them for more than a century. Apple has been selling iPhones for eight years. Do you think they will be selling them in 2108?

You asked the question ..

Getting back to your question, if it's the former (unhappiness over Apple's customer base), that's a serious issue. If the latter (unhappy MR and other tech forum contributors), it's mice nuts.

I merely pointed out that the numbers reflect the fact that it isn't just people whingeing on the Internet..

 

[citysnaps]

Thats an awful analogy though because people will always need cars besides Ford has been selling them for more than a century. Apple has been selling iPhones for eight years. Do you think they will be selling them in 2108?

You asked the question ..

No, I wasn't asking questions seeking answers, nor trying to make an analogy. I was being rhetorical (you can ask what-if questions till the cows come home), in that all these what-if questions are really pointless.

 

[Rob_2811]

No, I wasn't asking questions seeking answers, nor trying to make an analogy. I was being rhetorical (you can ask what-if questions till the cows come home), in that all these what-if questions are really pointless.

So nobody should ever ask any questions.

You keep kidding yourself that Apple will be selling trillions of iPhones forever ..

 

[I7guy]

So nobody should ever ask any questions.

You keep kidding yourself that Apple will be selling trillions of iPhones forever ..

The future cannot be predicted with certainty. So your statement is just a general statement without any real meaning. Nobody could have predicted the Note 7 fiasco, for example.

 

[Rob_2811]

The future cannot be predicted with certainty. So your statement is just a general statement without any real meaning. Nobody could have predicted the Note 7 fiasco, for example.

Great but this is a web forum, the idea of a forum is that it provides a medium for debate. You dont have Nostradamus to take part and babbling absurdities at people and refusing to even entertain any point of view other that your own isn't going to encourage debate.

 

[I7guy]

Great but this is a web forum, the idea of a forum is that it provides a medium for debate. You dont have Nostradamus to take part and babbling absurdities at people and refusing to even entertain any point of view other that your own isn't going to encourage debate.

"apple can't sell trillions of iPhones for ever?" That's not anything debatable, that's a dig masquerading as an opinion, imo, since you've made it clear on which side of the fence your on.

 

[citysnaps]

So nobody should ever ask any questions.

You keep kidding yourself that Apple will be selling trillions of iPhones forever ..

Nice, an ad-homenim and non-sequitur combined. When you resort to personal insults and falsely attribute to me the view that Apple will be selling phones forever, a silly view, greatly diminishes your credibility and speaks to a lack of maturity.

Your questions have no meat. Just general what-if pablum. It's just like my rhetorical questions I used up above as an example, hoping you would get the point: "What if Apple sells more phones than ever before this quarter?"

 

[Rob_2811]

Nice, an ad-homenim and non-sequitur combined. When you resort to personal insults and falsely attribute to me the view that Apple will be selling phones forever, greatly diminishes your credibility and speaks to a lack of maturity.

Your questions have no meat. Just general what-if pablum. It's just like my rhetorical questions I used up above as an example, hoping you would get the point: "What if Apple sells more phones than ever before this quarter?"

I haven't insulted you personally.

The point was in the original posts Apple won't continue to sell phones at the level that they currently are. Where they going beyond that is completely unclear. They have made no inroads into any market that will remotely compare.

 

[ThomasJL]

Jony Ive was great as long as Steve Jobs was around to give him direction.

Exactly.

Furthermore, putting Ive in charge of UI design has been a failure. The user-friendly nature of skeuomorphism that Steve Jobs promoted (largely due to it being more user-friendly) has been replaced by flat design because Tim Cook cannot innovate and just decided to copy Microsoft (who was the first to use the ugly and non-user-friendly flat design) and Google (who copied Microsoft's use of flat design before Apple jumped on the bandwagon).

Ive should have been kept in the role that he does best: industrial design. Not design for everything.

 

[I7guy]

Exactly.

Furthermore, putting Ive in charge of UI design has been a failure. The user-friendly nature of skeuomorphism that Steve Jobs promoted (largely due to it being more user-friendly) has been replaced by flat design because Tim Cook cannot innovate and just decided to copy Microsoft (who was the first to use the ugly and non-user-friendly flat design) and Google (who copied Microsoft's use of flat design before Apple jumped on the bandwagon).

Ive should have been kept in the role that he does best: industrial design. Not design for everything.

Thankfully skeuomorphism is out and flat is in. Much preferred.

 

[ThomasJL]

Thankfully skeuomorphism is out and flat is in. Much preferred.

Had Tim Cook instead of Steve Jobs been put in charge of Apple when it was close to shutting down in the mid-90s, Apple would have shut down. It was the user-friendly nature of Apple products—thanks largely to skeuomorphic UI design—that made Apple the massive success story that it is. Had Steve Jobs implemented flat design when he returned to Apple, there would be no Apple today.

Thankfully, Steve Jobs was not an unimaginative jump-on-the-bandwagon suit like Tim Cook.

 

[I7guy]

Had Tim Cook instead of Steve Jobs been put in charge of Apple when it was close to shutting down in the mid-90s, Apple would have shut down. It was the user-friendly nature of Apple products—thanks largely to skeuomorphic UI design—that made Apple the massive success story that it is. Had Steve Jobs implemented flat design when he returned to Apple, there would be no Apple today.

Thankfully, Steve Jobs was not an unimaginative jump-on-the-bandwagon suit like Tim Cook.

I dont see tc as you describe and like the job he is doing. Skeuomorphic designs had their time and that time is over.

 

[LordVic]

Obviously it depends on the number like you. And whether it represents a customer base wide cross section, or, people on MR who have been complaining about every Apple announcement and product introduced since Jobs came back; the iMac, iPod, iPhone, iPad, various laptops, the Watch, Apple support, Apple stores, arranging disaster relief customer contributions, every strategic acquisition, every service Apple introduces, lack of "innovation," Apple's privacy stance with respect to AI, the content of every keynote, executive business/marketing trips to various countries, and every senior executive (Cook, Shiller, Ive, Ahrendts, Cue).

Getting back to your question, if it's the former (unhappiness over Apple's customer base), that's a serious issue. If the latter (unhappy MR and other tech forum contributors), it's mice nuts.

As Apple's last revenue guidance (which has been historically conservative) for Q1 2017 was between $76 billion and $78 billion, a substantial increase over last quarter's (Q4 2016) revenue of $46.9 billion, I'm going with the latter, and therefore believing Apple is overall doing just fine.

I tend to agree.

I believe the days of rampant record revenue growth might be behind Apple, But thats not a bad thing. Stability is also a great thing in the industry, and no company has record breaking quarters every quarter.

 

[shk718]

...as a previous article has said - 32GB RAM wasn't impossible, but would have reduced battery life. If you're doing video editing work, RAM, CPU speed and GPU speed are also important - and battery life maybe not so much. Machines like the Dell XPS15 offer 32GB RAM in a reasonably slim package and, yeah, they don't have the MacBook's battery life but, on the other hand, they're not rubbish. Then, maybe, there is a clever like-the-Apple-we-love option such powering down half of the RAM or running it at a lower speed when running off battery?

I recall lots of people on this forum begging for more RAM and better graphics on the 2015 rMBP, I don't recall a single person complaining that it was too thick or that they needed more battery life.

Oh, and only two of the TB3 ports are 40Gbps-no-strings because the mobile i7 processor doesn't have enough PCIe lanes - not the end of the world, admittedly - but it does erode the point of having 4xTB3 instead of 2xTB3 and keeping some of what Apple ridiculously designate "legacy" ports (while continuing to sell desktops that only have those ports).




This isn't a case of "just stick 32GB in the new MBP" - its a problem with a disjointed product line that is leaving "power users" and "pros" with nowhere to turn apart from Windows or Hackintosh. I don't think the 15" MBP with discrete GPU has ever been their big seller - but it (along with the 27" iMac) has been their "power user" machine since the Mac Pro was turned into a one-trick OpenCL appliance and the i7 Mac Mini axed. Maybe the 13" should have got the ultra-thin makeover while the 15" got the "portable workstation" treatment? Maybe things wouldn't have been so bad if Apple had updated their whole range?
.

...as a previous article has said - 32GB RAM wasn't impossible, but would have reduced battery life. If you're doing video editing work, RAM, CPU speed and GPU speed are also important - and battery life maybe not so much. Machines like the Dell XPS15 offer 32GB RAM in a reasonably slim package and, yeah, they don't have the MacBook's battery life but, on the other hand, they're not rubbish. Then, maybe, there is a clever like-the-Apple-we-love option such powering down half of the RAM or running it at a lower speed when running off battery?

I recall lots of people on this forum begging for more RAM and better graphics on the 2015 rMBP, I don't recall a single person complaining that it was too thick or that they needed more battery life.

Oh, and only two of the TB3 ports are 40Gbps-no-strings because the mobile i7 processor doesn't have enough PCIe lanes - not the end of the world, admittedly - but it does erode the point of having 4xTB3 instead of 2xTB3 and keeping some of what Apple ridiculously designate "legacy" ports (while continuing to sell desktops that only have those ports).



...and everybody else can shut up and choose from the far more diverse range of Windows/Linux laptops & desktops available... right? Too bad if those are the people who either create Mac and iOS Apps, or are the key customers that make it worthwhile for everyone from Adobe to Docker to support their pro software on Mac, or are the ones that advise their colleagues and friends on what computers to buy, or are the one guy in the organisation that cares about supporting Macs on their windows-centric infrastructure...

This isn't a case of "just stick 32GB in the new MBP" - its a problem with a disjointed product line that is leaving "power users" and "pros" with nowhere to turn apart from Windows or Hackintosh. I don't think the 15" MBP with discrete GPU has ever been their big seller - but it (along with the 27" iMac) has been their "power user" machine since the Mac Pro was turned into a one-trick OpenCL appliance and the i7 Mac Mini axed. Maybe the 13" should have got the ultra-thin makeover while the 15" got the "portable workstation" treatment? Maybe things wouldn't have been so bad if Apple had updated their whole range?

The current 27" iMac isn't too bad - the worry is that, the way things are going, it will soon get replaced with an "improved" version with soldered-in RAM and SSD, TB3-only I/O and a GPU restricted by the heat dissipation capacity of the regulation 10%-thinner case.

i understand your POV. and I do think Apple needs to give the person who requires a beefier machine a response. Apples latest MO seems to be rip everything out, build a fresh new base that can be expanded on and over time fill in the missing pieces. Final cut being a prime example of that. I think now people are saying it's a fantastic product. As a computer programmer I get what they're doing. It's absolutely impossible to rewrite a program and have every piece in place for the initial release. You fill the product out over time. this mac is a starting point for the future and when they get the chips they want from intel they'll add them in.

 

[I7guy]

I tend to agree.

I believe the days of rampant record revenue growth might be behind Apple, But thats not a bad thing. Stability is also a great thing in the industry, and no company has record breaking quarters every quarter.

$76b is an okay number, if they hit it.

 

[theluggage]

It's absolutely impossible to rewrite a program and have every piece in place for the initial release.

...which is why you need to support the old and new in parallel until the new one is ready to completely take over.

What "new" Apple has done, with things like FCPx, Maps and now USB-C is pull the rug out from under people by suddenly, with no well-announced depreciation period, dumping the old system, or not supporting it on new hardware/OS versions leaving users who need the old features with nowhere to turn and, often, not even a roadmap to tell them if/when the features they relied on will be implemented.

Compare and contrast with (say) the switch from MacOS 9 to OS X, which took place over several years: It started with a Beta program, then new Macs came set up to dual-boot OS X and OS 9, but defaulted to OS 9, then it defaulted to OS X, but 9 was still there, then they produced a "Classic" subsystem that ran OS 9 apps under OS X without rebooting and that hung around until it was dropped in OS X 10.5. There was a similar pattern with the switch from 68k to PPC beforehand, and the switch to intel afterwards: Apple used to be really good at moving their user base on to new technologies, steering a wise course between getting bogged down in legacy like DOS/Windows and prematurely pulling the rug.

In each case, a lot of thought and effort was put into cushioning the transition. Beancounters hate that because it inevitably involves spending money on maintaining the old version even after the new one has launched, and the consequences of hacking off a chunk of your customer base don't usually show up on this quarter's figures.

 

[robbyx]

I

I know I am

I won't be replacing my aging Mac with a new one. I have the money set aside, but the new MBP does not any longer meet my idea of value.

I'm just one consumer, but what happens if there are a lot more like me?

After playing around with the Surface Studio, I'm seriously considering it as my next desktop. I've been using Apple and NeXT computers for 35 years but the today's Apple is losing me. Overpriced, underpowered and dumbed down. I'm particularly bothered by the crap UI/UX work coming out of Apple. The consumers Apple can't afford to lose are people like me. I've switched several businesses to Macs and am the tech guru for my friends and family. If people like me stop recommending Apple, it will definitely have a negative effect.

 

[flat five]

As said before - the dongles bother me other than it looks ugly as hell when hanging from a laptop, the switch to Thunderbolt 3 doesn't bother me at all - I'm all displayports at home anyway. The point is though - when traveling when a "pro" machine one should not have to rely on a $29 dongle to be productive. Most of the current standards will go wireless, the rest will eventually be USB3.1, but I'll bet that exactly when that time comes, Apple will switch the ports to something else...

So about the being "up to date" - theoretically it's all good and fine, but standards and plugs tend to stay around much longer than the actual machine itself. The perfect world of one port/one united standard is a pie in the sky - how many runs have we had on this? Firewire, USB, SCSI, Serial, PS/2, e-Sata... why do You think USB3.1 is the one that is going to stay with us?

fwiw, i don't use any ports on my laptop other than power.. all wireless and have been for a couple of years now.. actually went from a 2010 mbp to a 2013 a bit earlier than normal simply for the updated wifi.. (and moving to a quad had something to do with it too)

regarding thinness -- my daughter uses the 2010 now and when i see it, it's chunky.. i didn't buy the 2013 for it's thinness but now when comparing to my old laptop, i certainly appreciate it.. and i wouldn't mind something even smaller/lighter (i may be in a minority here but i carry(backpack) a laptop 3.5miles 6 days a week.).. lighter, while maintaining ergonomics (keyboard, display,trackpad size) to coincide with my body is something i'll be basing future buys off of.. and something i personally like about these new mbps is they're maintaining the 15" screen, offering larger keys, and larger trackpads.. it's not like they're just shrinking everything.. the parts i actually interact with using my body are either maintaining size or becoming larger.

why do You think USB3.1 is the one that is going to stay with us?

i don't.. but i do think it has a lot going for it over past plugs.
• it's small enough to be used on phones (and wouldn't be too surprised to see it replacing lightning though i do think we may see the removal of all ports from the iPhone prior to lightning being replaced by usb-c)
• there isn't an up or down orientation for the plug so it's very easy to use.. micro-usb is about the worst thing out there regarding this.. USB is pretty bad.. miniDisplayport(thunderbolt) isn't much better and not very secure seeming.. the act of plugging in usb-c and the secureness once it's plugged in is very similar to lightning which, imo, is pretty great.
• it's not an apple proprietary connector.. idk, for as much complaining there has been regarding apple's switch to thunderbolt and its proprietary nature, i don't think there's near as much praise(?) from them ditching it for something that has a much better chance at being a universally used standard.
• it seems to be able to do anything needed in personal computer world so i don't see much more exploration in the realm of implementing yet another plug.. i understand why the move to usb-c is sought.. currently, i don't see a case why they would want something else besides a universal and fully capable plug.

so again, i don't positively think usb-c is here to stay for the rest of the plug-in era.. but i do think it has a pretty good chance at doing so.

...but that's irrelevant, because the potential users of this computer aren't starting from a clean slate.

it's completely relevant to the point i was trying to make.
that being, this is most likely the reason we see a single style port on the mbp.. the designers felt it was the purest approach and 'best' design choice.. so they implemented it.

there isn't one style port because t.cook walked into the design studio and said "we need to find a way to make a few extra bucks off our users so let's only use one style port and sell them dongles.. muahhahaha"

whether or not you like what they've done is another story.. and you're arguing why you think it's a bad idea etc.. and that's fine.. i happen to agree with the choice, you don't.. cool.. i'm not arguing you about this.

my point was that i feel people should try to understand why the decisions were made instead of resorting to --> "GREED!!!" or "they don't care about MEEE " or "they're out of touch!!!" etc...
because those aren't the reasons why there's only one style port.
[doublepost=1480098724][/doublepost]

Thankfully skeuomorphism is out and flat is in. Much preferred.

fwiw, skeuomorphism and flatness aren't opposites of each other.. they're not really even related to one another.

in Sierra, we still have skeuomorphic designs but they are now flat instead of that 3D looking stuff.

the calculator for instance-- it's still skeuomorphism because it looks just like a physical calculator.. it's not necessary for the calculator to look like this on a computer but it does because it's taking design cues from a previous object.

flatness is just removing all those highlights and whatnot from buttons which made it look like the buttons had a depth to them.. from a design pov, it's a fake and unnecessary effect that, while cool/wow-factor when computer graphics first gained the ability to do things like that, it's now known to be without purpose and basically tacky.