Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Just bought Imac... Stuck pixel!!!
- Thread starter rxl125
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
losing the student discoubt blows but i would rather pay the extra 150 bucks than deal with any possible grief from the Apple people.
Oh and in reading most of this thread, to the people who said 'customers don't know jack, they just expect everything and salespeople have to deal with it and blah blah', i know there are a lot of idiot customers, but there are a lot of greedy, ignorant, smooth talking sales people who are all smiles to sell but dont have time for you when there is a problem, so dont act like they are all angels.
Oh and in reading most of this thread, to the people who said 'customers don't know jack, they just expect everything and salespeople have to deal with it and blah blah', i know there are a lot of idiot customers, but there are a lot of greedy, ignorant, smooth talking sales people who are all smiles to sell but dont have time for you when there is a problem, so dont act like they are all angels.
That's nice. Now where is there a euphemism being used? A customer service representative is NOT a salesperson. A CSR is someone you call when you have problems, or someone in the store designated to handle returns, complaints, etc. When you call Apple support, you're not talking to salespeople.kntgsp said:
Yeah, companies aren't what they used to be. But companies aren't evil entities bent on exploiting customers any more than customers are bent on exploiting companies. All things being equal, a company is going to respond to customers in an appropriate way, or they go out of business. Blaming the companies alone is not an accurate reflection of reality.
Uh huh. That's what Apple delivered. Are there display units with bad pixels out there? Absolutely. Does anyone advertise "flawless displays in every box?" No way. Will Dell replace computers and parts for just about any reason? Yes--it's faster and easier to replace computers and run them through QC again than to take one computer and fix it. When you build thousands of computers a day, you can just disassemble the returns and put the pieces in new computers. Taking that as an indication of higher quality service represents a misunderstanding of what service actually is.
Check again. Apple's customer satisfaction is at the top of the industry. The fact that that computers themselves cost more than other computers isn't because of higher service costs. A square is a rectangle...
Fun rant, though.
Pretty muchsikkinixx said:
. Actually, I just feel very strongly about how customers have become mercenaries lately. They claim to be loyal customers, but their actions often show anything but. They insist on perfect products but refuse to pay for them. They complain that a computer that is 99.9% perfect (with a display that has literally 99.999995% of its pixels working properly) is too expensive and then turn around and say that Apple should spend more to make it more perfect. There are only two profitable computer companies, and Apple is too different from all the others to risk not generating a profit. What irks me most about Apple customers is that EVERYTHING that goes wrong immediately invokes the price argument. "I paid 33 million dollars for a computer that doesn't work GRRRR!" as if it would be okay if it were half the price and broken, or as if things that didn't cost ten times more didn't also break.Part of it is my career experience; frivolous lawsuits, policymaking (law exists because human common sense is defective), and wholly unreasonable people with expectations based on feelings with no appreciation for reality. Former IT means that technology-related demands from people not literate in technology and the industry really, really, REALLY push my buttons.
matticus008 said:
lol good thing ya dont live America then, i hear they have REALLY frivolous lawsuits. good to see another BC boy on here....even if you are wrong
Neither is blaming the customers like you originally did.
No, no they didn't. I'd notice a big red dot in the middle of a screen. Likewise with a loud whining noise or audio clicks like I had with my macbook pro. I'm not expecting them to advertise "flawless displays in every box", you clearly take it too literally. I never said they should advertise like that.
Apple clearly knows what kind of expectations they present the customer with in advertising and sales talk. All I said is if they want to have a sh*t ass return policy with defective products, just tell your customer that. Just tell them they might not get the exact product that you are selling them in tv promos, sales talk and have on display.
First, you still failed to tell me why they can justify such a wide price gap. Since higher computer cost does not equal higher service, please tell me why then. Second, I never said they were at the bottom, and I never denied they were at the top. So no, I don't need to check again. I'm perfectly aware of where they stand in surveys.
Right, just like I said.
so which is it sport?
No, I didn't. I said it was unfair to blame solely the companies. Check again.kntgsp said:
"Big red dot" is a gross exaggeration. If the OP had more than one dead pixel, he should have stated so, and Apple should have replaced the unit (note that they HAVE replaced the unit, regardless). One out of 1.7 million is not a "big red dot." The whining and clicks are a known problem, but you are probably aware that people don't experience them when running Windows, so a software fix is undoubtedly on the way for OS X. Still, this isn't thread about that particular problem (which is completely different in nature than a normal result from the manufacturing process like a stuck pixel), and I'd probably want my money back for the whining if they couldn't make the problem go away.
They are getting the exact same product, with minor variances due to the fact that it's mass produced. Customers aren't (or shouldn't be) so stupid that they expect a floor model with a scratch in the corner to mean that the one they buy will have a scratch in the same corner, or that they might get one with a minor blemish that didn't exist in the display model.
You're looking at it backwards. Higher service and support costs -> higher retail price. But a higher retail price can be caused by much more than higher support costs. The "width" of the price gap is actually fairly minimal. Competing Core Duo notebooks with matching features are in the MacBook's price range. Competing small form-factor PCs can easily cost as much or more than a mini. The price of an Apple computer includes aesthetic quality, brand identification, service and support, Apple's comparatively high research and development budget/costs, software costs including the bulk of income for funding OS X, marketing and promotions, warehousing/packaging/logistics costs, administrative employee salary, capital costs...and the list goes on. You know why eating at a restaurant with wood moulding, crystal, and original artwork on the walls costs more even if the food is identical? Because those paintings are expensive.
Right, just like I said. Is there an echo?[/QUOTE]
No, you've missed the "a square is a rectangle" reference. Higher support costs make higher retail prices, but higher retail prices are not always because of higher support costs.
I consider buying another Apple despite being treated like crap when I get a DOA product, to be loyal. Particularly when I was calm and polite with them the entire time.
Yea, maybe they'd pay for them if they actually GOT them. That's a pointless statement. There's nothing wrong with insisting on a perfect product if you pay 3 grand. And if you get it, then why would they refuse to pay for it? If you don't get what you paid for, then yea I'd refuse to pay as well.
Ok then, how about a CD drive that burns 99.9 percent of it's data and then quits. Sure it's unusable, but the point is that Apple gave it their best try. Have a cookie Apple. I don't need my presentation burned right, I'll take one for the giant music monopoly giant so that those hard working CEO's and VP's can keep their millions of dollars salaries. God forbid.
If it's a "z" key that only works 99.9% of the time, sure, who the hell cares. If it's something that you stare at CONSTANTLY while using your thousands of dollars worth of product, yea I'd say it's something that should be fixed.
You're generalizing too much. My whole point has to do with out of the box 1 day old products. Dead pixel after 3 months, sure ok, I'll mail it in. Dead pixel out of the box, no way. You can reference all the fine print you want. Nobody cares. Sell the product you represent, or replace it with a working one/give my money back. End of story.
Right, which shows you're biased. All you deal with is complaints from customers. Of course I'd have it in against consumers. If all you get is "this is broken, fix it" from joe schmoe, and only 1% of your customers actually call to tell you 'hey great job', then I'd be a sourpuss like you as well. That said, not my problem. Sucks to be depressed like you.
You're clearly a techno ubergod who was raised with technology all around him since childhood. You have to understand that a large market of your buyers who are over the age of 30 (spare me the lecture, I know they aren't your largest group), don't understand that. I'm in my 20's and I hate the fine print ******** law that rules this society.
I go to a hardware and get a drill that only spins 90% of the time, I can go back and get my money back. That's how business works. I don't care if you have problems turning a profit. There isn't one reason for that. There's hundreds of things, even thousands in large companies, that factor into balancing a budget. Just because you have customers return a product that doesn't work as they were led to believe it would, doesn't put this incredible strain on your company as a result of a customers' incompetence. Have a more thorough quality control, not our problem.
The average customer doesn't care about your in depth analysis. Save the lecture. I and the majority of consumers will be perfectly happy going through life refusing to put up with snotty little twits like apple 'geniuses' who talk down to some guy who doesn't know their way around the industry or technology. Some people just have a life, that's all, and prefer riding their bike, to playing halo. If a salesperson gave an industry/tech lecture for every customer, they'd surely kill themselves. ;-) (the salesperson)
Of course not. But a nice clear screen without little tiny dots on it is a different issue. Watching a movie with a white dot in the middle is annoying.
If you see a nice screen on the model the salesperson is selling you, you expect to get that nice shiny screen. Otherwise they should tell you that, or offer a rocksolid return policy if you get something like that.
Blemishes are a poor comparison btw. A scratch on the keyboard or the side of an iMac doesn't affect it's useability. You don't look at the GUI through a scratch.
Granted, I understand your arguement for pixels being considered asthetic. To me, (I have 20/10 eyesight and crazy hearing), it is a nuissance. I think both of us are generalizing in terms of how many people return something based on that. A little old lady to buys an imac to videochat with her grandson isn't going to notice a damn thing. It's people who do things that require them to actually concentrate on areas for long periods of time or watch alot of movies.
No I read it. I just want to know the reason why then. Really. I'm not being a smartass this time, I am just honestly curious. Apple has high support costs, but since that does not imply alone the reason for high retail prices, tell the reason then.
Don't even begin a restaurant industry lecture, I've been working in it far too long.
That being said, I don't have your support vs. retail pricing backwards. I understand it fully. I think the way we worded that back and forth confused us both.
And brand name is a poor reason for price inflation. Brand name should be used as a way to keep/lure customers, not bump profits for fatcats. I know Sony does this as well, and I don't agree with it either.
That said, I'm done with this thread, and hungry as all hell, so I bid you goodnight.
It was very fun debating with you, despite the fact that it got heated. I respect your points regardless.
Quite honestly, if we had this debate regarding the restaurant industry, I'd probably be on your side in regards to the anti-consumer sentiment. Just from having to deal with alot of snotty ******s who don't know what medium rare is.
kntgsp said:
I bought a 30" ACD ($3k), one red stuck pixel RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF MY SCREEN "IT'S LIKE A LASER POINTER" (not really) after a week...and I don't give a $#!&. I barely even notice it. I have more important things to worry about. Just my 2 cents.
MovieCutter said:
Right, I mean some people it bothers, others not. Just like the whine and audio clicks with MBPros.
I just look at alot of moving images along with static, and a white dot in the middle of my screen would bother me just because it's the focus of my vision. If it's on the bottom right of the screen, no I couldn't care less. It's the fact that it's in the focal point.
That's great for you, but if you've been reading the thread, you'd know that I'm referring to specific suggestions by specific users here about how to handle the situation.kntgsp said:
What? You obviously don't understand market dynamics. Or reality, for that matter. You can't expect perfection at the same price level as imperfect goods.
Everyone has burned a few coasters, or inevitably will. The nature of technology is that none of it is perfect. Whether the flaws surface at inopportune moments is up to larger forces in the universe.
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that shows a poor understanding of technology. A keyboard switch can be made to an incredible degree of reliability at an incredibly low cost. It's also something that can be easily replaced or repaired when broken. It's like saying, "hey my pencil works, how come my space shuttle doesn't fly?" Pixels can't be pulled from displays once they're finished, and if one or two are stuck on a color, throwing out the entire display is a huge waste of money for a minor defect that really doesn't affect usability. Even for photo pros, one stuck pixel isn't going to kill anyone.
What does it being one day old have to do with anything? A pixel failure is almost always caused during manufacturing. It is not the result of something that breaks somewhere down the line. You keep comparing a manufacturing reality to an egregious fault and saying getting one was Apple misrepresenting its products. This is laughably far from the case. Apple did sell the product they represented, and there's no fine print involved. LCD pixel anomalies are a well-known, well-documented, normal result in the industry. Companies do their best to minimize them, but without significantly higher prices, they cannot be eliminated. The closer you get to perfect, the faster prices increase to get those extra steps.
I'm not depressed, sour, or bitter. Everyone is biased, and of course I'm coming at this from the other side, but it's exactly that viewpoint that people need to see. I'm a consumer like everyone else, and I've gotten imperfect products like everyone else, but there's a difference between less than perfect and less than advertised.
This and likely many other issues that agitate you are not about "fine print" but about a complex society with complex tools. You have to be the one to be knowledgeable about what you do. The fine print has taken the place of common sense and knowledge because people are too lazy or too busy to learn what they need to. Knowing that LCD manufacturing technology is imperfect, knowing that cast iron shouldn't be soaked in water and should be kept seasoned, understanding that a dishwasher is not a garbage disposal, etc. are all facts of life that people don't bother to learn for themselves, and when they screw up and break things or decide to expect unreasonable things, "fine print" is what keeps innovation moving forward instead of bankrupting everyone who's ever made anything harder to use than a spoon.
You need to learn some manners, kid. Your posts have been ignorant and rude for no reason. I've not done the same to you. The average customer doesn't care, you're right. That's their fault, and they want to be rewarded for their own ignorance, and it's wrong. How can the customer be right when he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about?
what is apples exactl policy on this i'm fairly certain that it has no set rules... kinda whoever complains more. Congrats on getting a new cpu/
Matticus you are being daft.
Yes it's true that all products will have some deficiencies, but some are more glaring than others. A bright red pixel, smack in the middle of the screen, is about the worst minor fault there is. It isn't as if it's a minor nick on the back of the casing. No reasonable person could accept this. It's not a bad pixel way to the side of the screen, but right in the middle where you are always looking.
This is simply unacceptable for a $1500 piece of hardware. I really don't care if returns on these sorts of problems would raise the price of regular units. A company should price its products such that they can afford to replace units with glaring faults, and this is about as glaring a fault as you can get. A small minority of customers should not suffer because computer manufacturers want to keep their prices low compared to manufacturers of other products.
I recommend that people in this situation keep hassling them until they give in. Remind them that in Apple's case repeat custom matters a lot, and by not responding to such an obvious fault, they are basically making sure that your next computer won't be a Macintosh. You can get a lot if you are simply polite and persistent.
And it works.
Yes it's true that all products will have some deficiencies, but some are more glaring than others. A bright red pixel, smack in the middle of the screen, is about the worst minor fault there is. It isn't as if it's a minor nick on the back of the casing. No reasonable person could accept this. It's not a bad pixel way to the side of the screen, but right in the middle where you are always looking.
This is simply unacceptable for a $1500 piece of hardware. I really don't care if returns on these sorts of problems would raise the price of regular units. A company should price its products such that they can afford to replace units with glaring faults, and this is about as glaring a fault as you can get. A small minority of customers should not suffer because computer manufacturers want to keep their prices low compared to manufacturers of other products.
I recommend that people in this situation keep hassling them until they give in. Remind them that in Apple's case repeat custom matters a lot, and by not responding to such an obvious fault, they are basically making sure that your next computer won't be a Macintosh. You can get a lot if you are simply polite and persistent.
And it works.
Hardly. I never said Apple SHOULDN'T have helped him, only that following a normal, industry-typical, and reasonable policy is not endemic of bad service, and that expecting a perfect display is beyond any guarantee, explicit or implicit, offered by Apple or any other computer manufacturers. He was never entitled to a replacement. The fact that he got one anyway is indicative of how false claims of poor Apple service actually are.Agathon said:
If Apple did raise their prices $150-200 to reject the 1/5 displays with pixel anomalies, then this thread would be replaced with TENS of threads on how Macs were unfairly overpriced. A 25-30% price increase for displays (it's not just replacing the 20% rejected stock, it's the huge human labor hours required to check the displays coming in from third-party manufacturers) with a .0000005% improvement is a ridiculous expectation and a disastrous business proposition. Replacing entire computers over one stuck pixel drives up prices immensely and it drives up customer wait times and reduces production efficiency, all for a negligible improvement.
matticus008 said:
I would not be suprised if you already do pay this price simply because the panel manufacturer themselves have different grades of thier stock, so when apple does order "10,000 lots of those X panels, (those are the 99.99% perfect lot right? Ok.)," they are paying premium price...
We should all be glad that Apple Customer Relations is taking care of this customer.
In fact, I'm fairly certain that if matticus008's PowerBook arrived with a less than perfect display, or another problem,
he would have been all over Apple like white on rice.
I wouldn't have accepted faulty merchandise either, so why should anyone else.
This thread has served it purpose, I'm outta here
In fact, I'm fairly certain that if matticus008's PowerBook arrived with a less than perfect display, or another problem,
he would have been all over Apple like white on rice.
I wouldn't have accepted faulty merchandise either, so why should anyone else.
This thread has served it purpose, I'm outta here
There are grades, absolutely. Apple could buy less expensive displays that would be more likely to have dead/stuck pixels, but there is no quality grade above what Apple currently buys. To go any higher with current manufacturing processes would require hand selection of a subset of these top-grade monitors. The top-quality LCD panels, purchased by Apple and several other computer companies, have a pixel anomaly rate of slightly more than 1 per 5 million (maybe even less now, I haven't checked in a while). At that rate, one out of every 3 monitors would have exactly one stuck or dead pixel. However, we all know that a few units have multiple stuck pixels, meaning that more than 67% are produced without visible anomalies (about 80%, in fact, based on my personal experiences), and that 100% of those sold at this level are in excess of 99.99999% visibly error-free when they pass through QC. As it turns out, this is a HIGHER standard for error rates than used for RAM or processors.bah-bah'd said:
The rate of anomalies increase as panel size increases (which is why the largest LCDs cost more per square inch than "mainstream" sizes--they have to discard more product to meet the same quality standards as smaller panels). This is also why plasma displays are more effective and substantially cheaper at large sizes than LCDs.