Justice Department Officially Drops Lawsuit Against Apple in Ongoing iPhone Unlocking Dispute [Updated]

[derek4484]

I'm betting that they got no important information from the phone....but we'll never know. The FBI would never admit that this whole thing was a waste of time and taxpayer money. The FBI already had all the metadata so they know who was calling and texting the phone. Plus, it was the work phone, pretty sure nobody is that stupid to use a work phone for that, especially considering that they destroyed their personal phones. That alone should tell you that there was nothing valuable on the device.

 

[DoctorTech]

Interesting... I expected this to be dragged out WAY longer!

Although, it'll rear it's head again when apple locks down that security hole (if they can)...

MY QUESTION IS: Did they find anything useful on the iPhone?!?

Gary

My guess is we will only be told if they did find something useful on the phone as it will be cited next time around as a reason for forcing Apple to comply in the future (i.e. "if you hadn't waited so long last time we would have known _____").

The more likely scenario is that they will not find anything useful (the shooters completely destroyed a couple of other phones that likely had something useful on them but they didn't destroy the iPhone 5c). In this event, the public will probably never be informed that the FBI didn't get anything valuable from the phone.
[doublepost=1459254508][/doublepost]

In other words, they didn't want to risk precedent being set by the case. If the case went against them they'd face an uphill battle to force people and phone makers to unlock their phones.

This was never about accessing the data on the phone, it was about setting a legal precedent that said "you are obligated to backdoor your encryption if the FBI asks" and they realised that Apple wasn't going to take it lying down and thus the legal fight was tougher than they were expecting and they might actually lose.

Edit: typo

A precedent has already been set by a federal judge in NY who ruled in Apple's favor on a very similar case. U.S. Magistrate Judge James Ornstein basically said this is a legislative issue that needs to be addressed by Congress but that under existing law the FBI cannot force Apple to assist.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/03...in-drug-case-ny-judge-says.html?intcmp=hphz06

 

[NT1440]

The bottom line is. Apple tried to make this a good PR case; but in fact it turned out to be a disaster. The press will not highlight that the phone was '4 years old' or 'out of date' - they will just highlight the facts: The FBI got round Apple's security.

If anyone here thinks otherwise; then you are just delusional.

Yea, they got around the security by de-capping the chips on a phone that didn't have a secure enclave. So they've done an operation that takes equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, requires a clean room, and simply will not work on devices newer than the 5c.

But you were saying something about this being a PR disaster?

 

[Tycho24]

Oh good grief. The point is there was never a request to mandate Apple to deploy any change to the iOS on phones they ship or in current use.

Right...
Just to find a way to undermine their security; and never patch it.
[doublepost=1459255140][/doublepost]

A backdoor is a way to instantly bypass normal authentication. In the case of the FBI request, authentication remained in play. The real passcode was still required. In fact, if the guy had used a strong passcode, brute force could still take a half decade.



I'm talking about the requirements for each doing it each time, and how Apple overhyped the possible consequences of doing so, in an attempt to stir up fear.

The FBI did not ask that a universal backdoor be built into public versions, nor that they be given it.

Apple was even free to create a device specific version, which they said they could do.

Most importantly, no outside device could load even a non-device-specific version anyway, since Apple's public facing update servers would not sign it. Without that, a leaked version would be as little use to anyone, as versions are now to anyone trying to downgrade to an iOS that is no longer signed.

It is my understanding that this "side loaded" OS, resident in RAM only, doesn't necessarily need to adhere to the same standard signature from update servers, etc.
That essentially it could bypass quite a few built in security measures.
[doublepost=1459255494][/doublepost]

The bottom line is. Apple tried to make this a good PR case; but in fact it turned out to be a disaster. The press will not highlight that the phone was '4 years old' or 'out of date' - they will just highlight the facts: The FBI got round Apple's security.

If anyone here thinks otherwise; then you are just delusional.

Lol.
Ummm, ok.
NOPE.

YOU are delusional!!!
Literally everyone (from Apple themselves, to the FBI, to privacy advocates everywhere) is considering this an "Apple win" & a "public win".
We the people have our security and our privacy intact.

It is a SERIOUSLY deluded individual that can spin that negatively.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

Lol.
Ummm, ok.
NOPE.

YOU are delusional!!!
Literally everyone (from Apple themselves, to the FBI, to privacy advocates everywhere) is considering this an "Apple win" & a "public win".
We the people have our security and our privacy intact.

It is a SERIOUSLY deluded individual that can spin that negatively.

Look in mirrors much? You should.

My first thought when I heard the FBI figured it out on their own was how negative it looked on Apple. If Apple does go crawling to the FBI for details, I hope the FBI has a middle finger for them.

 

[Ed217]

This is why making devices insecure for everyone else is such a stupid idea. It's like banning guns for the public; all you are doing is making it easier for nutters to go into cinemas and slaughter innocent people knowing there is a good chance that no-one will have a gun on them to kill him.

While I generally agree, the cinema is a less than good example, as that would generally just turn into a gun fight at the OK coral in a dark room.

 

[diipii]

Apple's ongoing fight with the U.S. government over an order that would require the company to unlock the iPhone 5c used by San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook has come to an end, after the Justice Department today announced plans to drop its case against Apple.

In a motion asking the court to vacate the original order, prosecutors said the FBI has been able to access the data stored on the iPhone 5c without Apple's help, reports CNBC. From the court filing:Apple was scheduled to square off against the FBI in court on Tuesday, March 22, but just a day ahead of when the court date was set to take place, the FBI asked for a temporary postponement as it had discovered a way to access the iPhone that would not require Apple's participation.

It later came out that the FBI had enlisted the help of Israeli mobile software developer Cellebrite, a company that offers "mobile forensic solutions" to help law enforcement agencies crack the encryption on smartphones to access data. The government has not disclosed the method used to obtain the information on the iPhone, stating only that it has been retrieved.

The withdrawal of the case brings the heated battle between Apple and the U.S. government to a close. The two have been fighting a very public debate over encryption and personal privacy, which kicked off when a court ordered Apple to help the FBI unlock the iPhone 5c in question.

Unlocking the iPhone would have required Apple to build a new version of iOS that bypassed iPhone passcode restrictions and provided the FBI with a way to enter passcodes electronically, something Apple staunchly refused to do as it would set a dangerous precedent for the future of device encryption.

Update: Apple has provided an official statement on the dismissal of the lawsuit.Note: Due to the political nature of the discussion regarding this topic, the discussion thread is located in our Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum. All forum members and site visitors are welcome to read and follow the thread, but posting is limited to forum members with at least 100 posts.

Article Link: Justice Department Officially Drops Lawsuit Against Apple in Ongoing iPhone Unlocking Dispute [Updated]

 

[DJ Dilbert]

Check and Mate.

The DoJ dropped this because if they didn't, they would have to disclose how Cellibrite did it in the court case. So this isn't too surprising.

But someone did find a backdoor into the system. So doesn't this still create the same potential disaster that Apple was trying to prevent in the first place? Especially since it was with an international company that has no problem selling its services to anyone?

 

[MH01]

Nope, not the scenario everyone was dreading, and what Cellebrite has is almost certainly NOT a backdoor. A backdoor is an intentional sneaky way in, left open by the manufacturer either, a) on purpose, b) by programmers neglecting to close something that was set up only for testing before sending the product out the door, or occasionally c) via industrial espionage, say a programmer inside the company who is actually working for a competitor or for a government agency, whose goal is to slip in a backdoor without anyone else at the company noticing. A backdoor is sort of like a cheat code in a game. It can work on any one of those phones or games or whatever, but nobody knows it's there. Until someone tells just one or two people. And then the Internet happens, and everyone knows. Except being able to walk through walls in a FPS is a lot less dangerous than being able to tap in an listed to any conversation or read any email or note or text message.

The FBI was asking for something similar to a backdoor, except more like a special testing rig - it wouldn't be a backdoor because it wouldn't be something new added to all shipping phones, it'd be a special OS build just for hacking a phone and would probably go along with special cabling to allow the brute-force hacking to be run by a computer (because you really don't want to hire a human to type in every possible 4-6 digit code). Having Apple build this would be bad news, because then the FBI and law enforcement agencies across the country will want to come in with boxes of phones, and court orders, to make use of the same thing once the precedent is set. The next step would be the FBI saying, "well, there's this suspect whose phone we want to hack, but he still has it, so you now you need to get us in remotely, and we have this NSL document so you're not allowed to tell anyone we're forcing you to do this." Then, the foreign governments will want in. If you trust the US government, do you trust China, to not use this technology to go after dissidents? What about some of the lovely bastions of democracy in the Middle East? How would you have Apple respond to them when they demand the same access?

An exploit, is when someone finds an unintentional bug in the software. Or, more clearly, a vulnerability is when the bug is discovered, while an exploit is code written to make use of the vulnerability to break into the device.
[doublepost=1459245139][/doublepost]
Oh, I'm sure Apple knows the hardware vulnerabilities of the 5C, but there are several factors in play: Cellebrite may have ideas theoretical or underway for getting into newer phones (it's not the kind of thing you want to announce loudly, because it tells Apple where to look for holes); having people who started out full-time looking for vulnerabilities now on your side can be very helpful; and, it would take them out of the marketplace - Apple could say, "sorry, FBI/shady-domestic-and-foreign-government-agencies, Cellebrite is no longer accepting contract work from anyone else, they're part of Apple now."

You are correct. Bad word choice by me.

 

[DJ Dilbert]

Look in mirrors much? You should.

My first thought when I heard the FBI figured it out on their own was how negative it looked on Apple. If Apple does go crawling to the FBI for details, I hope the FBI has a middle finger for them.

You watched the Daily Show on Friday didn't you?

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

This begs the obvious question as to why you weren't called in to retrieve the information on this scumbag's phone?

Because, as I said, this was never about having the ability to acquire the information. There are a number of products on the market that can do it just fine. They've had that ability all along.

This entire incident was about helping to change the requirements for accessing that data. Removing the legal roadblocks to make it easier for them to get that access in the future.

 

[0007776]

Apple should have made a deal to give then what they want in exchange for keeping it all quiet. Now, the masses will know apple phones are crackable. Bad apple move.

Every phone is hackable if you have physical access to it. All this case did is prove you have to work really hard and probably physically pull the chips apart to get in. The government got into this phone which probably had no useful information considering they destroyed their other phones, and in doing so they avoided a court ruling against them but still didn't get the cheap and easy back door they were looking for.
[doublepost=1459256973][/doublepost]

never about having the ability to acquire the information. There are a number of products on the market that can do it just fine. They've had that ability all along.

It wasn't about the ability to require access to one phone, they had the ability to get in if they tried hard enough. It was about getting a tool so they can do it quickly instead of taking a week per phone.

 

[jamezr]

But someone did find a backdoor into the system. So doesn't this still create the same potential disaster that Apple was trying to prevent in the first place? Especially since it was with an international company that has no problem selling its services to anyone?

There is a lot of he said she said between Apple and the FBI at this point.
But if Apple really wants to know how this was done and keep it from being sold to everyone in the world.
They should just buy Cellebrite........

 

[MH01]

But someone did find a backdoor into the system. So doesn't this still create the same potential disaster that Apple was trying to prevent in the first place? Especially since it was with an international company that has no problem selling its services to anyone?

The disaster was always there, the question is how many exploits exist, for Apple it was markerting PR and FBI was testing the waters to get Apple to create a Backdoor. When Apple turned it into a PR/markerting event that thier device was secure and they would not budge, FBI went with plan B and got someone to do the work for them instead of Apple.

For a device that's never been able to block jailbreaking, would be nieve to believe that it's 100% secure.

 

[CFreymarc]

Look in mirrors much? You should.

My first thought when I heard the FBI figured it out on their own was how negative it looked on Apple. If Apple does go crawling to the FBI for details, I hope the FBI has a middle finger for them.

I'm sure Apple knows how it was done. They have some of the best in the business working there. If anything, the Fed is the one in need of an education.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

Fascinating collection of posts.

I assume that these tools are such that they take awhile to implement and require significant expertise to use. So this would be the type of tools that the government can use a few times a year on a terrorist's phone. With these tools do you need access to the phone for hours or is it closer to days that you need? I assume these aren't things where you could have someone's phone for five minutes and then give it back to them and they wouldn't be able to tell you had messed with it.

However, the main activity of U.S. law enforcement groups is drug law enforcement. Law enforcement is probably acquiring dozens of phones from small time drug dealers every day, actually probably even hundreds a day. What they really want is a one stop, quick and nearly free solution that allows them to get into all those phones so their prosecution of the drug dealers can be even quicker and more efficient (it is already pretty quick and efficient, but even more evidence against the dealers would make it easier).

Then there is the issue of mass surveillance. I don't think what they were seeking to get from Apple would have helped them there though.

Depends on the setup. If the phone isn't encrypted (which 99% of them aren't) then it only takes a few minutes to acquire. Once you've imaged it you can do all kinds of fun stuff very quickly.

The speed really depends on what you're looking to do. If you're after standard stuff it takes only a minute or two. Grabbing text messages, web history, call history, address book and plenty of other stuff is quick and easy because it's stored in a standard place and format. Once you've grabbed the easy stuff then a full investigation can take place where you comb through the whole thing in detail.
[doublepost=1459257551][/doublepost]

Apple should have made a deal to give then what they want in exchange for keeping it all quiet. Now, the masses will know apple phones are crackable. Bad apple move.

Tim has a PR problem. He keeps preaching Adobe phones are secure but this story says otherwise.

Android phones are 10000x easier to get data from, I can tell you that from personal experience with running forensic investigations on them since they hit the market. Any investigator would rather see an Android phone used than an iPhone because it's going to make getting at the data so much simpler.

This isn't a big PR problem for Apple. It'll be forgotten in a week by most of the public (and to be honest the general public didn't give a crap about this case). Most don't understand security and are just fine with that. This did nothing to Apple's public image.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

You watched the Daily Show on Friday didn't you?

No...don't know what it is. Why?

 

[winston1236]

Lovely how the FBI tried to shift the focus from how they completely missed these attackers to a phone manufacturer.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

There is a lot of he said she said between Apple and the FBI at this point.
But if Apple really wants to know how this was done and keep it from being sold to everyone in the world.
They should just buy Cellebrite........

Apple has no interest. None. I sat down with the iOS security team in 2008 and showed them how our product exploited their OS. They told us it was totally secure (even though we'd just shown them it wasn't right in front of their eyes) and that was the end of it. Since then they haven't done anything to prevent us from acquiring data in the same way.

 

[Zaft]

Correct me if im wrong, was this not his work phone? He destroyed the other devices yet did not destroy his work phone. This Makes me think he knew there was nothing on it and didn't just "forget''

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

I'm sure Apple knows how it was done. They have some of the best in the business working there. If anything, the Fed is the one in need of an education.

If that's true, then Apple flat out lied (which wouldn't surprise me).

 

[DJ Dilbert]

The disaster was always there, the question is how many exploits exist, for Apple it was markerting PR and FBI was testing the waters to get Apple to create a Backdoor. When Apple turned it into a PR/markerting event that thier device was secure and they would not budge, FBI went with plan B and got someone to do the work for them instead of Apple.

For a device that's never been able to block jailbreaking, would be nieve to believe that it's 100% secure.

Good point on the jailbreaking thing. But how does that relate to an "un-jailbroken" iPhone?

 

[CFreymarc]

If that's true, then Apple flat out lied (which wouldn't surprise me).

Again, what was done to get the data is a hardware modification. The court order was to write software that would compromise the entire platform. Thus the FBI got their data, Apple was not compromised and an obscure security company just got a market niche expanded.

 

[DJ Dilbert]

No...don't know what it is. Why?

Look up Friday's (i think) Daily Show recast on Comedy Central's website. Trevor Noah does a bit about Apple telling the FBI that the phone can be unlocked with only one finger (sticks up middle finger). Then now the FBI tells Apple that they got Cellebrite to do it with that same finger (sticks it back up to Apple).

It was actually pretty funny...
[doublepost=1459258132][/doublepost]

Again, what was done to get the data is a hardware modification. The court order was to write software that would compromise the entire platform. This the FBI got their data, Apple was not compromised and an obscure security company just got a market niche expanded.

I understand now

 

[SMIDG3T]

Hm. Not are secure as they think then.