Justice Department Officially Drops Lawsuit Against Apple in Ongoing iPhone Unlocking Dispute [Updated]

[DudeDad]

My guess is that the FBI did not hack the phone. They knew going in that (1) they could not do it without destroying the data; and (2) Apple would not help them out. So, they went on blast to get this issue before "the people", to stir the pot, so that Congress will now try to pass software backdoor legislation. It's all been a charade to get public support for this type of software.

My two cents.

 

[Popeye206]

My guess is that the FBI did not hack the phone. They knew going in that (1) they could not do it without destroying the data; and (2) Apple would not help them out. So, they went on blast to get this issue before "the people", to stir the pot, so that Congress will now try to pass software backdoor legislation. It's all been a charade to get public support for this type of software.

My two cents.

Basically... I agree... I see this as an attempt to get public support for a backdoor to devices like this. Which I think is very dangerous.

Sure... this sort of data could be useful in helping get criminals and terrorists, but there are so many other ways for them to cover their tracks and have secure conversations. Also, information on a phone is not the holy grail to solving every case. There is tons of information available without unlocking the phone such as call and text records.

I'm on the side of Apple on this one... I think when you weigh out the risks vs benefits we're better off with more security for the average consumer... the FBI or whoever can always do what they just did here, which was access the memory directly — not something the average hacker would do because you have to have the physical phone. Adding a software backdoor is like telling cyber thief's and terrorist it's open season on smart phones and other devices.

 

[pika2000]

So, will we ever hear about the content of the phone? Or will the whole thing just be swept under the rug and never mentioned again?

 

[furi0usbee]

So our phones really are not private, and the government can and will get what they want, when they want. Great. Maybe Apple goes back to the drawing board now and works on iPhone security. Hopefully Apple is doubling down on encryption.

 

[tgara]

My guess is that the FBI did not hack the phone. They knew going in that (1) they could not do it without destroying the data; and (2) Apple would not help them out. So, they went on blast to get this issue before "the people", to stir the pot, so that Congress will now try to pass software backdoor legislation. It's all been a charade to get public support for this type of software.

My two cents.

The FBI made their success known in official documents. Are you suggesting they flat-out lied to the court?

Basically... I agree... I see this as an attempt to get public support for a backdoor to devices like this. Which I think is very dangerous.

Sure... this sort of data could be useful in helping get criminals and terrorists, but there are so many other ways for them to cover their tracks and have secure conversations. Also, information on a phone is not the holy grail to solving every case. There is tons of information available without unlocking the phone such as call and text records.

I'm on the side of Apple on this one... I think when you weigh out the risks vs benefits we're better off with more security for the average consumer... the FBI or whoever can always do what they just did here, which was access the memory directly — not something the average hacker would do because you have to have the physical phone. Adding a software backdoor is like telling cyber thief's and terrorist it's open season on smart phones and other devices.

I think there needs to be a reasonable balance here. I'm all for privacy and security, especially today when there are hackers attacking our data from all sides. But that is a double-edged sword. While our data may be safe and secure, so is the data of a terrorist bomber, kidnapper, or pedophile. So I am also all for national security and public safety, as well as supporting efforts by law enforcement to stop these plots.

The problem with the process that the FBI used to access this shooter's phone is that it took a long time (excluding all the legal ramblings on of course). That long timeframe won't work when a terrorist parks a car full of nuclear explosives in Times Square or next to your kid's school, and the suspect in custody has the abort codes on his iPhone.

We have to strike a balance. Total impenetrable security where devices are beyond the reach of legal, lawful searches by law enforcement or security agencies is not the answer. But neither is having 24/7 access by the government, obviously, because such access has clear privacy implications and is ripe for abuse. Now that this matter between the FBI and Apple is settled for the moment, I'm hoping that Congress will address this issue and find a sensible middle ground.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

The sad truth is you are quite on point. Thankfully, public backlash was significant enough to force their hand in this case. This all comes down to timing and they had bad timing. Just wait until something similar to 9/11 occurs and people let their emotions get to them and this will fly under the radar all in the name of keeping you safe by revoking your freedom.

Exactly right. The FBI had hoped this case, with the tragedy of lost lives, would get the public support behind them and push Apple to open things up, "For the good of the nation." But it didn't play out as they'd hoped.

Sadly, they'll just wait for the next tragic event and hope to use the public support to catch those responsible, to push the agenda.

 

[TallManNY]

Depends on the setup. If the phone isn't encrypted (which 99% of them aren't) then it only takes a few minutes to acquire. Once you've imaged it you can do all kinds of fun stuff very quickly.

The speed really depends on what you're looking to do. If you're after standard stuff it takes only a minute or two. Grabbing text messages, web history, call history, address book and plenty of other stuff is quick and easy because it's stored in a standard place and format. Once you've grabbed the easy stuff then a full investigation can take place where you comb through the whole thing in detail.

Do you mean 99% of non-iPhones aren't encrypted? I though iPhones were encrypted by default. So as long as you turn on password, you have encryption protection. Curiously, my Blackberry is not encrypted by default. But if you flip a switch the phone will encrypt itself. I think my work issued Blackberries were encrypted.

On some level the scary thing for me is what can be done quickly. If I'm going to a foreign country I could certainly be separated from my phone for short period of time. If that government can crack every phone in five minutes, they might use their border crossing as a type of wholesale surveillance process. I'm assuming that if a phone is encrypted, like this iPhone was, that it will take days to break it. I'm not a big enough target for anyone to bother doing that to my phone. But if it only takes five minutes to copy the phone and then break the encryption at leisure down the road, than maybe that happens to me next time I travel to China or Russia.
[doublepost=1459267970][/doublepost]

The FBI made their success known in official documents. Are you suggesting they flat-out lied to the court?




I think there needs to be a reasonable balance here. I'm all for privacy and security, especially today when there are hackers attacking our data from all sides. But that is a double-edged sword. While our data may be safe and secure, so is the data of a terrorist bomber, kidnapper, or pedophile. So I am also all for national security and public safety, as well as supporting efforts by law enforcement to stop these plots.

The problem with the process that the FBI used to access this shooter's phone is that it took a long time (excluding all the legal ramblings on of course). That long timeframe won't work when a terrorist parks a car full of nuclear explosives in Times Square or next to your kid's school, and the suspect in custody has the abort codes on his iPhone.

We have to strike a balance. Total impenetrable security where devices are beyond the reach of legal, lawful searches by law enforcement or security agencies is not the answer. But neither is having 24/7 access by the government, obviously, because such access has clear privacy implications and is ripe for abuse. Now that this matter between the FBI and Apple is settled for the moment, I'm hoping that Congress will address this issue and find a sensible middle ground.

The problem with all these hypothetical situations is that they are so far fetched. It starts with somehow the bad guy has set up and done or is about to do this amazingly bad thing, but we've caught him just enough to have access to his phone but not quite enough to have any other way to stop him.

While the issues of bad government espionage or oppressive governments like China, Russia, and various Middle East dictatorships oppressing dissident freedom fighters is literally happening on a daily basis. You do not have to strain in the slightest to find good reasons for encryption. Even if you have total faith in the U.S. government you would still want encryption to be available to protect U.S. businesses from foreign government sponsored espionage. We know this espionage is happening all the time. This is a real issue instead of some hypothetical about a pedophile who has been caught enough to have his phone seized but somehow has hidden all other traces of evidence against him so we can't convict him without the evidence in the phone.

 

[duffman9000]

Exactly right. The FBI had hoped this case, with the tragedy of lost lives, would get the public support behind them and push Apple to open things up, "For the good of the nation." But it didn't play out as they'd hoped.

Sadly, they'll just wait for the next tragic event and hope to use the public support to catch those responsible, to push the agenda.

"For the good of the children!"
Please please why won't y'all think of the children first!!

 

[Breaking Good]

Tomorrow's headline: Apple purchases Cellebrite for $1 million.

Goaliegeek for the win!

 

[B2k1977]

Lemme guess what they're gonna find on the phone...evidence of weapons of mass destruction somewhere in the Middle East. "Get yer boots back on boys!" - Gubmint

Boots? Please...this is the Obama Administration. If we're lucky he'll draw some more of his very effective red lines!

 

[dk001]

Uh I wouldn't call this a win on Apples part. I don't understand why everyone is happy and like yay good job Apple. Apple lost! Apple flat out completely ****ing lost. They got into the phone! That means Apple has failed to provide security.
[doublepost=1459235583][/doublepost]
The FBI isn't giving up the secret way in for anything. No way in hell are they going to Apple and telling them how they did it. They effectively got what they wanted and they didn't even have to deal with Apple. They won big time.

Apple didn't care if the FBI got into the device. Apple didn't want to be conscripted to develop a new tool to break into the device especially as it had some serious negative potential. As Apple didn't have to do this, I would call it a win for Apple.

 

[duffman9000]

Lemme guess what they're gonna find on the phone...evidence of weapons of mass destruction somewhere in the Middle East. "Get yer boots back on boys!" - Gubmint

They already tipped their hand. Cyber pathogen on the loose!!

 

[tuxon86]

Do you mean 99% of non-iPhones aren't encrypted? I though iPhones were encrypted by default. So as long as you turn on password, you have encryption protection. Curiously, my Blackberry is not encrypted by default. But if you flip a switch the phone will encrypt itself. I think my work issued Blackberries were encrypted.

On some level the scary thing for me is what can be done quickly. If I'm going to a foreign country I could certainly be separated from my phone for short period of time. If that government can crack every phone in five minutes, they might use their border crossing as a type of wholesale surveillance process. I'm assuming that if a phone is encrypted, like this iPhone was, that it will take days to break it. I'm not a big enough target for anyone to bother doing that to my phone. But if it only takes five minutes to copy the phone and then break the encryption at leisure down the road, than maybe that happens to me next time I travel to China or Russia.
[doublepost=1459267970][/doublepost]

The problem with all these hypothetical situations is that they are so far fetched. It starts with somehow the bad guy has set up and done or is about to do this amazingly bad thing, but we've caught him just enough to have access to his phone but not quite enough to have any other way to stop him.

While the issues of bad government espionage or oppressive governments like China, Russia, and various Middle East dictatorships oppressing dissident freedom fighters is literally happening on a daily basis. You do not have to strain in the slightest to find good reasons for encryption. Even if you have total faith in the U.S. government you would still want encryption to be available to protect U.S. businesses from foreign government sponsored espionage. We know this espionage is happening all the time. This is a real issue instead of some hypothetical about a pedophile who has been caught enough to have his phone seized but somehow has hidden all other traces of evidence against him so we can't convict him without the evidence in the phone.

Do you really believe that the iPhones being sold in China or Russia don't have any backdoor for the government to snoop on its citizen? Do you think for one minute that the Chinese Communist Party would let a locked down, encrypted device to be sold in China with no possibility for the government to spy on its citizen? Or Puttin's Rusia?

Wake up guys. The only reason that Apple fought back in the USA is for the free publicity, not because they are mindful of your privacy...

 

[Piggie]

If I may check here......

It is true, is it not, that Apple scans your private data in the cloud, so if it finds anything it does not approve of, it can delete it.

That is correct isn't it?

Can someone please clarify this for me?

 

[Flood123]

They had access to the shooters bodies right ? Why didn't they just use touch ID to get in and call it a day.

 

[NT1440]

So our phones really are not private, and the government can and will get what they want, when they want. Great. Maybe Apple goes back to the drawing board now and works on iPhone security. Hopefully Apple is doubling down on encryption.

Again, physical access to the device, a clean room, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of extremely precise equipment is needed to de-cap and read computer chips. This method cannot be replicated on mass, and is arguably already taken care of on every device with a Secure Enclave (iPhone 5s and newer).
[doublepost=1459269507][/doublepost]

They had access to the shooters bodies right ? Why didn't they just use touch ID to get in and call it a day.

Iphone 5C does not have Touch ID.

 

[JackANSI]

Since no legal ruling was made, we are right back where we were before this case was even started. This is not a victory, this is not HUGE.

The only thing this means is Apple needs to step their game up and find these things before people who don't have our best interests in mind find them.

 

[KdParker]

Darn.. Already popped the popcorn....

Edit:
I'm on the side of maximum personal privacy, but it was going to be fun to watch an inept Justice Department go after a company that is naive about government power.

I would bet in the long run, this was a deal made so everyone could save face by using a 'third party company' that suddenly has method for subverting apple security protocols

 

[Popeye206]

I'm hoping that Congress will address this issue and find a sensible middle ground.

What scares me about this is what I heard from congressmen and other officials about this issue while the investigation was going on.... most of them are CLUELESS about technology and how these things work. It was so frustrating to listen to some of them as they spouted off things that we're just plain wrong.

Besides, if they force a back door and now the terrorist know that they can get at information from a smart phone, what do you think the terrorists will do? Oh... yeah... stop using smart phones. Meanwhile, IMHO the real threat to everyone is cyberterrorism and that same backdoor will have a welcome mat on it for terrorist and criminals.
[doublepost=1459269982][/doublepost]

They had access to the shooters bodies right ? Why didn't they just use touch ID to get in and call it a day.

I thought of the same thing... it was a 5c phone... no touch ID. However... a definite path for newer phones.

 

[johngordon]

My guess is that the FBI did not hack the phone. They knew going in that (1) they could not do it without destroying the data; and (2) Apple would not help them out. So, they went on blast to get this issue before "the people", to stir the pot, so that Congress will now try to pass software backdoor legislation. It's all been a charade to get public support for this type of software.

My two cents.

I wondered the same thing - them taking it further was going to open up a whole can of worms, that may not have gone their way.

Saying the managed to hack it, and nothing further, seems like a very convenient way of saving face.

It was like a game of Chicken to see who would blink before the day of the hearing, and it was Apple who stood their ground, and the FBI who blinked.

 

[Popeye206]

Do you really believe that the iPhones being sold in China or Russia don't have any backdoor for the government to snoop on its citizen? Do you think for one minute that the Chinese Communist Party would let a locked down, encrypted device to be sold in China with no possibility for the government to spy on its citizen? Or Puttin's Rusia?

Wake up guys. The only reason that Apple fought back in the USA is for the free publicity, not because they are mindful of your privacy...

I completely disagree. BTW... even though phones are secure in China, they run a walled garden for internet access and control what people can see and have access to their phone carriers. So, they really don't need to snoop on a phone to track or snoop on their people. They are already oppressed in other ways.

 

[hudson1]

Next you'll have Apple asking how. Followed by the DOJ using it for their 12. Then LEOs nation wide for their thousands of devices. Then FOI submittals. Then someone at the FBI dropping the dime and it gets out everywhere.

Still think this is a wool blanket the FBI is attempting to use.

It was stupid of Apple to not do this for the FBI behind closed doors. If they simply had unlocked the phone owned by San Bernardino County and handed it back to the FBI -- it was a court order after all -- then the FBI wouldn't have ventured down the path they took.

 

[BaldiMac]

It was stupid of Apple to not do this for the FBI behind closed doors. If they simply had unlocked the phone owned by San Bernardino County and handed it back to the FBI -- it was a court order after all -- then the FBI wouldn't have ventured down the path they took.

Because standing up for your rights is stupid, and you should just do whatever the government says no matter the cost?

 

[hudson1]

Because standing up for your rights is stupid, and you should just do whatever the government says no matter the cost?

No, it was stupid for Apple because that phone was going to get unlocked one way or another. Now they have to live with the fact that it can be unlocked and they don't know how it was done. That sure doesn't help their sales pitch.

Additionally, what "right" were they standing up for? Was it the right to defy a court order? If it was, I'd like to be able to use that, too, some day if I ever need to. Doubt it works.

 

[tgara]

The problem with all these hypothetical situations is that they are so far fetched. It starts with somehow the bad guy has set up and done or is about to do this amazingly bad thing, but we've caught him just enough to have access to his phone but not quite enough to have any other way to stop him.

While the issues of bad government espionage or oppressive governments like China, Russia, and various Middle East dictatorships oppressing dissident freedom fighters is literally happening on a daily basis. You do not have to strain in the slightest to find good reasons for encryption. Even if you have total faith in the U.S. government you would still want encryption to be available to protect U.S. businesses from foreign government sponsored espionage. We know this espionage is happening all the time. This is a real issue instead of some hypothetical about a pedophile who has been caught enough to have his phone seized but somehow has hidden all other traces of evidence against him so we can't convict him without the evidence in the phone.

The San Bernardino shootings were not far fetched. 14 people were killed and 22 injured.

Yeah, both sides can come up with ludicrous examples, like governments turning on cameras in phones to spy on people, or nuclear bombs placed on trains or in buildings. But the more realistic examples are the ones we have to worry about, such as those you mentioned, or the SB shooting. Between tight encryption and a fair judicial review process, I believe we can strike a middle ground somewhere.