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I have no inside knowledge of what project Titan is all about, but when you look at the Bloomberg clip from last year’s WWDC, it doesn’t actually say what people have decided it says. There’s absolutely nothing to support the idea that Apple has moved away from building a whole car to only doing the autonomous driving component; in fact, it hints at something much bigger than autonomy.

Specifically, Cook doesn’t say they’re focusing on autonomous systems. Or rather he does say that, but then quickly corrects himself.

He says:
“what we’re focusing on, or what... what we talked about focusing on publicly, is we’re focusing on autonomous systems”.


Later he hints that there’s more going on that they’re not willing to share:
“Autonomy is something that’s incredibly exciting for us, and we’ll see where it takes us. We’re not really saying from a product point of view what we’re... what we will do, but we are being straightforward that it’s a core technology that we view as very important”.

The rumors have Apple at 1,000 employees when the project is the whole car, then reportedly having a layoff in 2016, with 17 Apple employees landing at Zoox over the next year. Then in 2017 we’re supposed to think the project has been scaled back just because Cook talks about autonomy being a core technology?

Now here we are, a year later, and there’s 5,000 employees with need-to-know access credentials for Titan, and Apple’s spending $1.1+ billion per month on R&D. That’s four times the amount of money Zoox raised to do an entire car—spent over a period of years—and Apple’s spending that every month. (Obviously not all of that is for Titan.) Less than $10 billion has been invested in Tesla, to date.

Yes, autonomy is a core technology. But Cook talked about autonomy, electrification and ride-sharing. Also, don’t forget Apple’s $1 billion investment in Didi Chuxing, a ride-hailing service in China.

It doesn’t take 5,000 people to figure out autonomy. Tesla only had 3,000 employees in December 1012—six months after it launched the model S. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that Apple’s plans are much bigger than autonomous systems, and it would seem difficult to think otherwise.
 
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The original Macintosh was released in 1984, not 1987. Getting that wrong certainly doesn't give me a lot of confidence in his predictions.
 
I'll state for the record now that Apple is not going to release a car that revolutionises the market like the iPhone did.

Apple requires too much profit, it will be a car for Ferarri drivers.
It will only be for Apple customers.
The product would be too niche to revolutionise anything.
Apple will have too much competition.
And after 5 years the product will not be supported.
Repair shops will not be allowed to get parts from any one but Apple and only some repair shops will be authorised.
 
The whole "it will revolutionize auto industry the way the iPhone revolutionized mobile communication" rhetoric is ridiculous. Have you see a Tesla?

If that level of technology at that price did not revolutionize the industry then Apple -- a phone company this point -- will certainly not achieve the same. I get it. The hyperbole make it exciting but the big difference here is that Apple is not an automotive company. They are a tech company. I don't think we'll see the same "revolutionary" outcome here.
Tesla actually has nothing impressive. What are you so impressed with in their cars? They have meh styling and are plagued with all the problems of an electric car. Short range, long charging times, mods to your home, and few places to charge.

BMW and the other real car companies are going to eat Tesla’s lunch. Tesla is already quite a mess, but Musk is a great sales guy. Investors are buying the dream, but Tesla is losing billions, cannot produce any meaningful amount of cars, and the more they produce, the more they lose.
 
Sounds good. That way bumpers will start falling off when it rains like Tesla model 3.
 
Tesla actually has nothing impressive. What are you so impressed with in their cars? They have meh styling and are plagued with all the problems of an electric car. Short range, long charging times, mods to your home, and few places to charge.

BMW and the other real car companies are going to eat Tesla’s lunch. Tesla is already quite a mess, but Musk is a great sales guy. Investors are buying the dream, but Tesla is losing billions, cannot produce any meaningful amount of cars, and the more they produce, the more they lose.

What impresses me?

Let's see...

Less than 3 seconds to 60mph
300 + mile range
Some of the best safety ratings in the industry
It can park itself and pick you up when you're ready to go
It can drive itself from point A to point B without any driver input
It has zero emotions (I buy 100% wind power for my home)
It looks amazing -- I get this is subjective and you clearly don't agree, but still
Handles that fold back into the door... it's just neat.
Interior tech that is in a class of its own

So, I guess there are a few things....

By the way... Wife test drove a BMW and I've spend a good amount of time in the 7-series. Neither one of us was impressed. Everyone has a different taste. But Tesla is pretty revolutionary by any standard.

Losing money? Amazon lost money for well over a decade. Twitter, Facebook... all lost money for years before becoming profitable. I am not sure this is the way I would measure Tesla's success. They are not perfect, but that wasn't the point.
 
I don't like Kuo-gurus pushing relatively obvious possibilities into a timeline. This is not a good job, because Apple is then forced into the role of the respondent.

Well, Apple will probably be amazed at the dilettantism of this guru. Apple's strategic planning penetrates completely different dimensions, proven backwards.
 
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self driving 2025?? the uber death pushed that back. any ways do you really want own a big fleet of cars?

you expect a self driving car to never crash? that's unrealistic. 1.3 million people die each year from car accidents and we seem to not be getting any smarter driving.

self driving cars will never be 100% perfect, but put it this way: if you can show that self driving cars can reduce 1.3 million deaths to 800k deaths each year, even if a majority of those accidents are related to self driving cars, that's still a 40% reduction in deaths.

training AI isn't a linear graph, it's exponential. so while it does seem like not much is happening for the past 3-4 years in this type of technology, it'll start picking up steam soon.
 
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What impresses me?

Let's see...

Less than 3 seconds to 60mph
300 + mile range
Some of the best safety ratings in the industry
It can park itself and pick you up when you're ready to go
It can drive itself from point A to point B without any driver input
It has zero emotions (I buy 100% wind power for my home)
It looks amazing -- I get this is subjective and you clearly don't agree, but still
Handles that fold back into the door... it's just neat.
Interior tech that is in a class of its own

So, I guess there are a few things....

By the way... Wife test drove a BMW and I've spend a good amount of time in the 7-series. Neither one of us was impressed. Everyone has a different taste. But Tesla is pretty revolutionary by any standard.

Losing money? Amazon lost money for well over a decade. Twitter, Facebook... all lost money for years before becoming profitable. I am not sure this is the way I would measure Tesla's success. They are not perfect, but that wasn't the point.
You mean the $100K version for < 3sec to 60? Its launch control is already breaking the drivetrain on the cars.

Many gas cars have great safety ratings, far longer than 300 mi range with no need to charge, park itself (10 yr old tech) and self driving.

Point is, none of this stuff is proprietary and there are more desirable brands...like BMW and Benz, who can actually manufacture reasonable numbers of cars and turn a profit.

AMZN still makes very little profit and has an absurd valuation, but AWS has been profitable for a long time, which drove the biz. Tesla has NEVER been profitable in any area and has had to raise cash through both the equity and bond markets.

Electricity isn’t clean or zero emissions, btw. And isn’t free either. Batteries are also insanely bad for the environment in both manufacturing and disposal.

You think the Model 3 looks amazing? Better than a BMW? Lol...

Tesla sells a ridiculously small amount of cars and isn’t ready to manufacture any meaningful amount, if there are even orders for them.
 
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Tesla actually has nothing impressive. What are you so impressed with in their cars?

* A completely new forward-thinking take on the driver-car interface, particularly on the Model 3.
* OTA updates to car software that can conceivably completely change the features or performance of a vehicle.
* On-road acceleration performance that outshines any other all-electric car, much less many gas or hybrid vehicles.
* Autonomous driving capability and potential that outperforms pretty much any other consumer vehicle on the planet.

You sound a bit like a hater, and that's your right - but for all the things other companies "could do" just as well or better, Tesla got there first and is still out front for most items in my list, above. No other company has made a 100% electric vehicle not subject to the same range/infrastructure limitations - which, if you are a typical commuter, are not even limitations at all.

Sure, other mainstream companies may eventually catch up - but Musk is a great sales guy, and BMW and their ilk will never be as exciting to watch.
 
* A completely new forward-thinking take on the driver-car interface, particularly on the Model 3.
* OTA updates to car software that can conceivably completely change the features or performance of a vehicle.
* On-road acceleration performance that outshines any other all-electric car, much less many gas or hybrid vehicles.
* Autonomous driving capability and potential that outperforms pretty much any other consumer vehicle on the planet.

You sound a bit like a hater, and that's your right - but for all the things other companies "could do" just as well or better, Tesla got there first and is still out front for most items in my list, above. No other company has made a 100% electric vehicle not subject to the same range/infrastructure limitations - which, if you are a typical commuter, are not even limitations at all.

Sure, other mainstream companies may eventually catch up - but Musk is a great sales guy, and BMW and their ilk will never be as exciting to watch.
They are losing a ton of money producing 40,000 units/quarter. BMW sold 75,000 electric cars in ~6 months (plus about 2.5M gas cars in a year) and GM sells 10M cars/yr.

BMW is implementing OTA updates already as well as many others.

The problem with electric cars now are the charging and range issues. Takes way too long to charge and you can’t even take it on a road trip. It’s a step backward right now.

They are too expensive, even with subsidies. You have to modify your house to charge the cars quickly. There are reliability concerns, electricity isn’t free, and the styling is awful.

I’m not a hater at all, if the tech were there, but it’s not. It’s a pain to own one because of the limitations. Tesla has nothing that other manufacturers have/will have and the earnings for Tesla prove I’m right. They haven’t demonstrated a profitable business model or any significant demand for their products.

The car industry is fiercely competitive and these companies are already producing electric cars and far better gas cars which will take decades to go away.

Tesla is a tech company and is a total n000000b at manufacturing compared to real companies. BMW destroys them.
 
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2023? Is it going to cost more than a decently spec’d Model S? I finally make enough money now that I could start saving up and buy half of it by 2023 and get a five year loan to pay off the rest but my wife would kill me. Also I’d feel like I could never get rid of it like my first gen iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. Probably best not to buy the first gen. Also we have a rule where we never buy new cars. Every car I’ve bought was five years old when purchased and I’ve never had one completely die on me or have a crazy bill because I take care of them. I worry something like this could become a money pit. I will definitely take a wait and see approach unless I’m rolling in money by then. Until then I’ll stick with my Subie.
 
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Interesting how MR is ignoring the news about Apple pushing app developers to adopt a subscription model with a thinly-veiled "or else". Instead we get more articles on the mythical :apple:car with product release dates far enough into the future that no one can refute the nonsense. From what I see happening with Cook and the Boyz, the car will be sold on a subscription model.
 
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you expect a self driving car to never crash? that's unrealistic. 1.3 million people die each year from car accidents and we seem to not be getting any smarter driving.

self driving cars will never be 100% perfect, but put it this way: if you can show that self driving cars can reduce 1.3 million deaths to 800k deaths each year, even if a majority of those accidents are related to self driving cars, that's still a 40% reduction in deaths.

training AI isn't a linear graph, it's exponential. so while it does seem like not much is happening for the past 3-4 years in this type of technology, it'll start picking up steam soon.
2025 is fast as liable needs to be worked out and also an EULA does not get them out of criminal liabilities.
Now will apple comply if say self driving software needed to be at FAA code audit levels?
 
Elon might start making phones and show Tim what a real ceo can do...

Elon is too busy doing stuff that actually matters to most humans. Tim just sells a helpful, but not necessary piece of technology and touts how much they’re changing lives with emojis.

My point is, nothing wrong with what Apple is doing but my goodness, you’d think they’re curing cancer with all their marketing speak. Plenty of other companies that are doing way more important things to help the human kind.
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the more they produce, the more they lose.

False. Apparently you didn’t pay attention to their most recent quarter. It pays to stay up on the stuff that you’re trying to make a claim about.
 
Apple Car with dealer only service. any non dealer stuff will lock the car into an limited limp mode
With oil changes at each 3000-5000 mile at $129 a pop. if you hit 6500 miles without one (dealer only code needed to reset counter) then limp mode
Need new tires that will be $299 each
Need to replace lights that will be $99-$249 each

That would be cheaper than my car.
 
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2025 is fast as liable needs to be worked out and also an EULA does not get them out of criminal liabilities.
Now will apple comply if say self driving software needed to be at FAA code audit levels?

liability would be standard just as how it is now. if you own the car, you'll be liable because you activated the self driving vehicle. if you're running a service like Uber and own the car, you'll be liable as a company. of course you'll have car insurance. only difference is, car insurance premiums would go down because car accidents would go down

self driving laws will likely be finalized before 2025. possibly 2021 we'll see a draft, and 2022 we'll get a final version.
 
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You mean the $100K version for < 3sec to 60? Its launch control is already breaking the drivetrain on the cars.

Many gas cars have great safety ratings, far longer than 300 mi range with no need to charge, park itself (10 yr old tech) and self driving.

Point is, none of this stuff is proprietary and there are more desirable brands...like BMW and Benz, who can actually manufacture reasonable numbers of cars and turn a profit.

AMZN still makes very little profit and has an absurd valuation, but AWS has been profitable for a long time, which drove the biz. Tesla has NEVER been profitable in any area and has had to raise cash through both the equity and bond markets.

Electricity isn’t clean or zero emissions, btw. And isn’t free either. Batteries are also insanely bad for the environment in both manufacturing and disposal.

You think the Model 3 looks amazing? Better than a BMW? Lol...

Tesla sells a ridiculously small amount of cars and isn’t ready to manufacture any meaningful amount, if there are even orders for them.

It's becoming quite apparent that you don't know much about Teslas. When I say "park itself" I mean it will valet itself and then come pick you when you're ready to go. As in drop you off, go park somewhere, come back and get you.

Anyway... they are pretty revolutionary. Yes, there are issues with the battery than even the manufacturing and disposal process are way more environmentally sound than burning fossil fuel. Self driving function is insanely great. They are revolutionary and yet... as you said, still no profit.

Apple -- a phone company -- will do better?
 
My point is, nothing wrong with what Apple is doing but my goodness, you’d think they’re curing cancer with all their marketing speak. Plenty of other companies that are doing way more important things to help the human kind.

Not curing cancer, it you want to re-think your position on how helpful Apple products are in health and medicine.
 
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Apple Car with dealer only service. any non dealer stuff will lock the car into an limited limp mode
With oil changes at each 3000-5000 mile at $129 a pop. if you hit 6500 miles without one (dealer only code needed to reset counter) then limp mode
Need new tires that will be $299 each
Need to replace lights that will be $99-$249 each
Tires welded on, only authorized Apple repairs permitted.
Battery will have "Peak Performance Capability" which will actually slow down the car so it can go farther.
Base model will have 15 hp engine and only 1 seat to make the other models look more appealing.
 
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