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It's true that no modern display tech available right now can outright fix the latency issue for everyone, but extrapolating out into the 480Hz and beyond range of displays and this very much becomes a solvable issue. It's just a matter of when that threshold is met for everyone.
VR latency is already fine. The image is warped at the last possible moment to match where your head position is predicted to be a few milliseconds later when the image is scanned out on the screen. There is, practically speaking, zero latency on rotation, and maybe a frame of latency for lateral movement, which isn’t as important.
 
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Same here to me Apple AR Headset doesn’t solve a problem. More like jumping on the trend. I much prefer a more sleeker approach. That’s why for me Apple Glasses are wayyyy better than a strapped headset 🤷‍♂️
 
View attachment 2185131Same here to me Apple AR Headset doesn’t solve a problem. More like jumping on the trend. I much prefer a more sleeker approach. That’s why for me Apple Glasses are wayyyy better than a strapped headset 🤷‍♂️
Yes, I also prefer a fantasy product that isn't possible to make with today's technology to a product that can be produced in the real world in 2023.

This is about as useful as showing an iPhone to someone developing a pocket calculator in the early 70's.
 
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Lets say its a great device. Is it going to still be thought of as that when everyone has it and is interacting even less with the world? What about when you see a whole room in a nursing home with elderly folks wearing it waving their hands around? This needs to be an empowering product and not just one step closer to the pods in the Matrix movie.
 
I mean I know and I keep telling you guys it's full potential, but y'all write it off. "VR is only good for games so I can't use it" despite me clearly pointing NO VR/AR does way more than just games.



They already do that. Engineer designers use Vive headsets for making 3D CAD models



Steam and the Oculus store already has a lot of experiences like this of full virtual museums. In fact, the Louvre in Paris has a VR experience called Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass, in which you can inspect the painting's tiniest little details without touching the art.



Also has been a thing since the OG Vive in 2016.




Already been a thing: https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/social-clips/tackling-dementia-with-virtual-reality/



Post Malone had a full VR concert last year. https://www.billboard.com/music/mus...toothache-concert-virtual-reality-1235110887/



Man I'm getting tired of this: https://www.viar360.com/education-schools-using-virtual-reality/



Goes back to the VR client for AutoCAD



I swear to god people listen to you more than they listen to me. 🥴



It's already at the level of convenience with the Quest 2. People wanted something cheap and standalone. They won't want wires, so John Carmack told Zuckerberg the Quest was the direction they needed to go. The result? The Quest 2 is now the most dominant VR headset on the market, completely dominating PCVR because of it's low price and lightness.

The problem VR/AR has, is software. It's one thing to make an affordable and convenient headset, but you need content to keep people interested, as well as to attract newcomers, something VR struggled with as last year not a single big title released. We were in a massive content drought, a drought that is slowly passing with the new PCVR games coming this year as well as the PSVR 2, and soon Apple Reality.



Consumer VR as we know it now started in 2016 and required base stations to be mounted throughout a room and you needed a massive playspace, and a cable was always in your way. The original Oculus DK1s only had 3 degrees of freedom versus nowadays with the much better 6DOF.

Fast forward to now and we have standalone VR with the Quest 2, Quest Pro, and Pico 4. PCVR headsets are pretty much dead now as Windows Mixed Reality has been shut down, the Valve Index is old and outdated, and Meta doesn't make PCVR headsets anymore. Consumers only want standalone headsets that can be plugged into a PC when needed since it's a lot more convenient just putting the headset on and going, versus plugging it into a PC, setting up the VR environment software, and installing base stations



Yeah I don't think we're gonna see that this decade. Apple Glasses is gonna be a long way out as to create something like that you're gonna need to shrink the silicone down massively while still being able to supply a battery, which is why Apple's starting with a traditional HMD first.



Patient? C'mon you're the Apple Knowledge Navigator I thought you knew them better. The iPod had a tight deadline in 2001 to get it ready by the Holiday sales. iPhone also was rushed to get ready for the Macworld 2007 keynote, all the while it still wasn't ready. The demo prototype was unstable and could crash at any moment so Steve Jobs had to follow a "Golden Path" script when demoing it to minimize the chances of it breaking, and every time a demo was successful everyone in the greenroom took a shot of whiskey. It was a miracle nothing went wrong during the presentation.




Now this is true, and this is the argument I have with many others on this forum who argue that "VR isn't mainstream" because it doesn't sell the units an iPhone does. Nevermind the fact the Quest 2 in just two years sold over 30 million units, or that SteamVR has over 100 million monthly active users, that's not good enough it needs to sell 200 million or else it's not mainstream. They make the same argument when game consoles are brought up since game consoles don't sell the units phones do, and yet they're mainstream.

People will make excuses and shift goalposts no matter what because they don't like being wrong.

Investors also never see the longterm as they want short term gains so they can make profit on their stocks. Just look at Nintendo. They keep losing investors because Nintendo wants to go into a direction investors don't like, despite the company being wildly more successful than they've ever been, crawling from the clutches of death during the Wii U era into a global phenomenon with the Switch, and now even getting into movie and TV production.



Welcome to the first gen Apple curse. It wasn't until the Apple Watch Gen 3 that the Apple Watch kicked into overdrive. The iPad kicked into overdrive when the 2nd gen came out. The iPhone kicked into high gear with the iPhone 4.

As I said earlier, give it time.



To be honest Steve Jobs thought the hockey puck mouse was a good idea so...yes? 🥴


I kind of zoned out after you reminded me that John Carmack works for Zuckerberg. I remember when that legend went to work for Facebook. I think that was the day the world truly went mad.

Anyway great post, I agree.
 
Yes, I also prefer a fantasy product that isn't possible to make with today's technology to a product that can be produced in the real world in 2023.

This is about as useful as showing an iPhone to someone developing a pocket computer in the early 70's.
What makes you think that this is a "fantasy product?" You know that it's already been done reasonably well six years ago by a small startup called North? They made a nice pair of smart glasses that really met the need that people find useful - an augmented HUD where you can visually (and privately) see notifications, alerts, and general information.

Thumb_v02_ALT_Textless.jpg


They biggest problem they had (in 2017 mind you) was weight and battery life. Both of these things should be able to be significantly improved in the 6 years since Google acquired North and brought the tech back in for "refinement." The error Google made was buying the tech and not keeping the engineers. The Google Glass team took over and never released any implementation since then. This is exactly the type of thing where Apple can excel. There are multiple iterations of "Smart Glasses" out there, but none of them have gotten the formula quite right. This is where Apple can execute their proven game plan. They don't try to be the first out of the gate, they want to be the first one out of the gate to get it right. There were "smart phones" before the iPhone - Blackberry, Palm Treo, WinPC phones... but iPhone was the first to get the formula right. (And even it needed some refinements before it was at a "can't live-without" level of functionality.) There were previous MP3 players before the iPod, previous laptops before Mac notebooks changed the quality expectations, other tablets before iPad took over the game. But when Apple gets things right... they tend to change the market.

The key is that whatever the Apple product ends up being... it needs to be Glasses focused and discreet technology. VR tech is a non-starter (and Timmy C. has even been very pointed that this is an AR product not VR). But if they come out looking like a silly pair of ski goggles, the use-case will be very limited. Something like watching movies privately on an airplane limited. And until the use-case grows... sales will be limited.
 
Future Apple presentations will be broadcast in VR for free to all users of their new Apple headset. You'll feel like you're in the audience!
 
Seriously, I think there's a lot to this. I think Apple already dumped a lot of R&D money into this years ago, believing they were getting in on the ground floor of the next big thing. And the gamble didn't pay off. So now they've got to try to produce something to recoup some of the losses and justify the work on it. (If it sells at a "lukewarm" pace and allows certain niche markets to do something new/better with a Mac, it can be spun as a successful product.)
Perhaps we need to remind the community that Apple had acquired Akonia Holographics, a Colorado-based start-up that makes lenses for augmented reality glasses. Yes not virtual reality, or mixed reality, just augmented reality. Date of article below - AUG 29 2018


The Akonia acquisition is the first clear indication of how Apple might handle one of the most daunting challenges in augmented reality hardware: Producing crystal clear optical displays thin and light enough to fit into glasses similar to everyday frames with images bright enough for outdoor use and suited to mass manufacturing at a relatively low price.
 
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Perhaps we need to remind the community that Apple had acquired Akonia Holographics, a Colorado-based start-up that makes lenses for augmented reality glasses. Yes not virtual reality, or mixed reality, just augmented reality. Date of article below - AUG 29 2018


Thank you for providing a source and not just making stuff up, much obliged :)

But I'm still wondering -- why would apple designers and others that worked on the VR/AR headset tell Cook and Financial Times that they need more time for proper AR glasses if Akonia makes them?

paradox much?
 
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Thank you for providing a source and not just making stuff up, much obliged :)

But I'm still wondering -- why would apple designers and others that worked on the VR/AR headset tell Cook and Financial Times that they need more time for proper AR glasses if Akonia makes them?

paradox much?
Or just repeating the same story that gets loads of clicks.

One of the earliest post to this topic was this one from me. Mark Grumman as well as others contributed to this rumor conjecture telling us latest speculation on Apple efforts, but like the Tim Cook interview people were trying to determine if he said anything about all of this at all , he seemed to be playing a very neat game teasing the possibilities without offering a thread of substance. Tells you Apple has something but will not tell before WWDC. full GQ interview My earlier comment about the basis of this rumor.
We never established that its a AR/MR headset, it could be just AR glasses or something else. All based on rumors that Tim Cook didn't want admit to anything in his recent interview. The reality headset term sounds almost from the days of reality distortion field from Star Trek.
 
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Without content, this will flop like a week dead carp in a drying up lake. Apples insistence on building metal instead of a standard API will substantially limit content, especially games. Business apps like CAD or 3d modeling won't have critical mass, and this won't go anywhere.

Honestly, the best thing they could do is to put it back in the lab. Right now it's like blockchain - a solution in search of a problem.

It won't run any CAD, that's not AR. AR is described as a system that just overlays content on your view of the real world, it is not interactive with the real world so no app can have a pencil in a desk too can pick up etc. That's MR.

People seem to be confused in here what the tech will actually do.
Good explanation of the differences here:


  • Virtual reality (VR) example:​

    A computer generated living room in which your simulated self can move around and interact with the virtual furniture and houseplants or the simulated selves of other like you.
  • Augmented reality (AR) example:​

    A real-time view of your own living room that you can virtually enhance with different paint or carpet colors or call up virtual "floating" screens to read email or watch a game.
  • Mixed reality (MR) example:​

    Another real-time view in which virtual selves or objects are also displayed -- but where the real and artificial elements can interact (e.g., placing a virtual pencil on a real table).

EDIT: If you are disagreeing with this post, and ergo Lenovo’s explanation, perhaps you could reply with the reasons why you disagree with a multi billion dollar computer manufacture that’s been in the market for years?
 
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Without content, this will flop like a week dead carp in a drying up lake. Apples insistence on building metal instead of a standard API will substantially limit content, especially games. Business apps like CAD or 3d modeling won't have critical mass, and this won't go anywhere.

Honestly, the best thing they could do is to put it back in the lab. Right now it's like blockchain - a solution in search of a problem.
There has to be some quantity of AR content created by devs after the last 5 years. All of us that understand this a bit better recognize that AR hardware can't successfully create any marketplace without the AR media to interact with. Sure seems like Tim has some stuff to show off against AR when WWDC kicks off but like he had to hold it back during GQ interview to make us go crazy. :cool:
 
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If you think the Jaguar game console is relevant to a discussion of VR viability, I can't take you seriously.

The Jaguar could barely render a couple dozen untextured triangles at a low framerate and resolution. Apparently the Doom port ran at 15 frames per second at 160x180 pixel resolution. According to Wikipedia, the Jaguar sold less than 150K units.

It would be like claiming streaming video is doomed because someone tried it on a 2400 baud modem and it didn't work well.
Indeed those are certainly words you typed in, and it seems like you believe higher polygon counts are going to override the vision impairment design flaw, correct?

Is that what you're saying?
 
There has to be some quantity of AR content created by devs after the last 5 years. All of us that understand this a bit better recognize that AR hardware can't successfully create any marketplace without the AR media to interact with. Sure seems like Tim has some stuff to show off against AR when WWDC kicks off but like he had to hold it back during GQ interview to make us go crazy. :cool:

No mystery. “Have a giant UHD HDR screen in your glasses all loaded up with Apple TV+, Movies and TV Shows. Watch with anyone anywhere in the world in real time on a screen as large or small as you want, all without ever leaving your own living room.”

Apple TV will be the “killer app” for these. This is the “Apple branded television.”
 
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No mystery. “Have a giant UHD HDR screen in your glasses all loaded up with Apple TV+, Movies and TV Shows. Watch with anyone anywhere in the world in real time on a screen as large or small as you want, all without ever leaving your own living room.”

Apple TV will be the “killer app” for these. This is the “Apple branded television.”
I've not see how AR fits in with tvOS (APTV4K) that I recall. Apple stated "Build unparalleled augmented reality experiences for hundreds of millions of users on iOS and iPadOS, the biggest AR platforms."

His GQ quote teasing this:

“If you think about the technology itself with augmented reality, just to take one side of the AR/VR piece, the idea that you could overlay the physical world with things from the digital world could greatly enhance people’s communication, people’s connection,” Cook says. “It could empower people to achieve things they couldn’t achieve before. We might be able to collaborate on something much easier if we were sitting here brainstorming about it and all of a sudden we could pull up something digitally and both see it and begin to collaborate on it and create with it. And so it’s the idea that there is this environment that may be even better than just the real world—to overlay the virtual world on top of it might be an even better world. And so this is exciting. If it could accelerate creativity, if it could just help you do things that you do all day long and you didn’t really think about doing them in a different way.”
 
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