Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

panjandrum

macrumors 6502
Sep 22, 2009
319
375
United States
Yeah, Apple's butterfly keyboard was a failure. Otherwise, they'd have never finally abandoned the design and went back to scissor switches. On top of this, them abandoning the design, they'll also leave those owners to deal with the problems after the warranties and extended warranties expire. The purpose of this lawsuit isn't just about it being a lawsuit to sue Apple for the sake of it like you'll read some morons spouting off about. It's to ensure that Apple must continue providing support, but better than this, has to provide extended warranties on these keyboards. Not much different than the NVIDIA GPU solder problem that occurred a few years ago. Most likely they'll lose this one since there has already been a precedence of a previous ruling for the failing hardware which required them to cover losses to the consumer.
Apple fanboys and cultists can piss off about this. It's legitimate.
In the end this is a defective-as-designed part that Apple knew about long before they bothered to do anything about it. IMHO Apple should, for the sake of maintaining what remains of their once-stellar reputation, treat this like an automotive recall for a defective-as-designed part. Don't replace it with another defective part, replace it with a re-designed part that will function normally (or replace the entire computer with a newer one which does not have the perpetually-failing part). Apple has the money to make this right, so why not do so? It would go a long way towards mending bridges.
 

SpeedyTheSnail

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2018
187
311
Caprica
In the end this is a defective-as-designed part that Apple knew about long before they bothered to do anything about it. IMHO Apple should, for the sake of maintaining what remains of their once-stellar reputation, treat this like an automotive recall for a defective-as-designed part. Don't replace it with another defective part, replace it with a re-designed part that will function normally (or replace the entire computer with a newer one which does not have the perpetually-failing part). Apple has the money to make this right, so why not do so? It would go a long way towards mending bridges.
Apple never makes things right and has a history of screwing their customers, requiring them to go to court to get justice.

Apple now literally has the money to do so but doesn't care about doing what's right to anybody but the APL shareholders.
 
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baryon

macrumors 68040
Oct 3, 2009
3,423
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that version 3 of the butterfly design basically corrected any issues. It then became an matter of preference and not functionality.

So in the eyes of Apple, the issue was resolved...but by then there had been so much bad publicity surrounding the term butterfly keyboard, that Apple did an about face. They had to. Even if there was nothing further to fix. To restore the confidence of millions of potential MacBook Pro buyers moving forward.
Though I believe Apple continues to sell the previous generation butterfly keyboards in the MacBook Air, which are not fixed. And if they do fail, they get replaced... with the same exact type of keyboard. Same goes for owners of previous generation MacBook Pros, who don't have the new "fixed" butterfly keyboard. They should recall the product, refund the people who bought it, or replace all the keyboards with the new butterfly keyboard, or something. Replacing a faulty part with a faulty part is the stupidest thing ever.

Also, their repair program only lasts 4 years. What if you want to use your Mac for 6 years? What if you want to sell it? Too bad, you can't. No one in their right mind would buy a used butterfly keyboard MacBook Pro. So people who paid a ridiculous amount of money for these machines are stuck with a product they more than likely can't use for more than 4 years and can't really sell even if they don't fail. People need to be compensated for this. The warranty should be more like 6-8 years, which is a reasonable maximum useful life of a MacBook Pro. I just sold my 6 year old MacBook Pro to someone who intends to use it for another 2-3 years. That's a great lifecycle, it's better than recycling, I got a lot of money for it, and the person who bought it got a great computer. Luckily, it wasn't a butterfly keyboard, which is why I was able to sell it.
 
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MrGuder

macrumors 68030
Nov 30, 2012
2,715
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I hope Apple sends out an email if you bought a 2017 model your can upgrade it to the new model for little money. I’m in.
 

Baymowe335

macrumors 603
Oct 6, 2017
5,480
9,677
You keep using the word anecdotal in an attempt to sound intelligent and back your pro-Apple can do no wrong argument, regardless of what evidence has been shown. I have followed you on this forum and IN EVERY THREAD INVOLVING THE POS KEYBOARD YOU IGNORE ALL EVIDENCE and state that it is anecdotal.

The facts are:
There is a high failure rate for the butterfly keyboard design, Apple won't release the numbers [and you won't listen until they do].
Apple gave up on the keyboard design and is changing over to the scissor switch design next year for other models and has done so with the new 16 inch model.

People have had this keyboard failure in a clean environment where they don't eat over their keyboard.

Maybe you should just refrain from posting about the keyboard since you are always wrong, are extremely agressive towards people who are experiencing the issue, and have nothing to back your opinion other than the word "anecdotal" and your pro-Apple can do no wrong mentality despite a long trail of evidence.
You can scream all you want, but those aren't facts. Those are individual stories from people that are really upset. Anecdotal.

I'm not saying the issue isn't there. I'm saying it's not a big enough deal to completely overhaul the design (took 4 years) and not even big enough to do it on all models. They still sell the butterfly design. This indicates the failure rate is acceptable enough to fix it through existing channels. If it impacted enough users, Apple would have no choice but to take faster action.

"High failure rate" is not a fact.

Watch Apple's actions. A major issue gets fixed...quickly. Not what we've seen with these keyboards.
 

SpeedyTheSnail

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2018
187
311
Caprica
You can scream all you want, but those aren't facts. Those are individual stories from people that are really upset. Anecdotal.

I'm not saying the issue isn't there. I'm saying it's not a big enough deal to completely overhaul the design (took 4 years) and not even big enough to do it on all models. They still sell the butterfly design. This indicates the failure rate is acceptable enough to fix it through existing channels. If it impacted enough users, Apple would have no choice but to take faster action.

"High failure rate" is not a fact.

Watch Apple's actions. A major issue gets fixed...quickly. Not what we've seen with these keyboards.
From what I've seen, Apple only fixes a major issue if there is a threat of a Class Actin Lawsuit.
 
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Baymowe335

macrumors 603
Oct 6, 2017
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I don't see this as evidence that the 2019 KB is failure prone. This is Apple's way of reassuring customers and standing behind their product because they definitely had problems with the early versions of the KB. I rarely see posts of people having problems with the 2019 KB. So, it's irresponsible and lazy journalism to say it is still failure prone without evidence of excessive failures.
Precisely. People don't understand that reading a forum of upset people doesn't make compelling evidence. Apple CERTAINLY isn't worried enough to quickly redesign it and not even on all their models.

Go read a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes forum. You'd think the entire car is a hunk of scrap metal with the people endlessly complaining and calling for redesigns, recalls, and design flaws.
 

icanhazmac

macrumors member
Apr 11, 2018
66
98
Maybe stop eating over the keyboard?
My 2017 MBP 15 has had 2 replacements under light office use and I have never eaten over my keyboard. Any more snarky excuses for how I caused this failure versus it being a known issue by Apple's own admission?

Precisely. People don't understand that reading a forum of upset people doesn't make compelling evidence.
I don't think I came off as "upset" at all, simply saw a thread that I wanted to read and had something relevant to add to the conversation. Again I state that I am happy for everyone that likes the butterfly keyboard and has never had a problem but portraying those of us who have experienced failures outside of what many would consider the norm as liars, lunatics and Apple haters is just wrong.

The existence of the Keyboard Service Program, that includes ALL of the butterfly laptops should be indication enough that there is a real issue of larger than normal failure rates otherwise why would it exist at all? Apple's own actions are pretty compelling evidence.

I applaud Apple for recognizing the butterfly keyboards are a larger than normal problem and taking reasonable steps to protect users from repair costs. That being said I am trading this train wreck in for a 16" and hoping for "magic".
 

Baymowe335

macrumors 603
Oct 6, 2017
5,480
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My 2017 MBP 15 has had 2 replacements under light office use and I have never eaten over my keyboard. Any more snarky excuses for how I caused this failure versus it being a known issue by Apple's own admission?



I don't think I came off as "upset" at all, simply saw a thread that I wanted to read and had something relevant to add to the conversation. Again I state that I am happy for everyone that likes the butterfly keyboard and has never had a problem but portraying those of us who have experienced failures outside of what many would consider the norm as liars, lunatics and Apple haters is just wrong.

The existence of the Keyboard Service Program, that includes ALL of the butterfly laptops should be indication enough that there is a real issue of larger than normal failure rates otherwise why would it exist at all? Apple's own actions are pretty compelling evidence.

I applaud Apple for recognizing the butterfly keyboards are a larger than normal problem and taking reasonable steps to protect users from repair costs. That being said I am trading this train wreck in for a 16" and hoping for "magic".
They still sell them dude and it took 4 years for them to change it. If it were so serious, this would not be the case.
 

icanhazmac

macrumors member
Apr 11, 2018
66
98
They still sell them dude and it took 4 years for them to change it. If it were so serious, this would not be the case.
Not disputing the fact that they are still available. I am not privy to Apple's design windows but it seems reasonable to me that they tried to fix the butterfly keyboards with revisions versus a redesign, evidently they failed as the 16" has the magic keyboard and if you believe the rumor mill the other laptops will follow as their design windows come up.

"so serious" is relative, the butterfly keyboard has a higher than normal failure rate, the very existence of the Keyboard Service Program which includes EACH AND EVERY butterfly model, including the supposedly much better 2019s, is evidence of this. I am not claiming its a disaster or 100% failure rate but the evidence that they fail at a higher than normal rate is pretty much undeniable.
 

Peperino

macrumors 6502a
Nov 2, 2016
786
1,390
Who ever has 2016-2019 15” MacBook pro models, apple should just give us an option to swap our macbooks with 16 inch macbooks with scissor mechanism keyboards
Although I do not own a 2016-2019 one, due to obvious reasons (worse product ever designed by Apple), I think that should be a good solution, since replacing the old butterfly for new butterfly will NOT solve the bad design problem and as a Genius said, just bring it back for the next 2 years after they keep failing.
That speaks extremely poor of a company that supposed to charge premium prices for "supposedly" better quality products...
- - Post merged: - -

Some of the biggest class action suits ever are for companies still around and the others are accounting fraud or health related. They are slaps on the wrist at worst.
There is always a first time. What Apple did was simply beta test a failure product with paid consumers. We Sadly we all know that laywers are the big winners and consumers are always the ones screwed. Though, Maybe it is time for Apple to get a big slap in the wrist, because what they did was a complete fraud, selling a faulty keyboard even after 3 years. And what is even worse, is how bad speaks of Apple quality.

- - Post merged: - -

lolwhat, this “new” keyboard is only available for the expensive 16 inch models. What about 13 inches? Apple is still selling them with faulty unreliable keyboards..
All MBP should be recalled and pull out of the market immediately. They have been selling this faulty product for over 3 years with complete knowledge.

And for those die-hard Apple defenders that mention that the failures are below 2%, you have no data to support your claims. Maybe the lawsuit should discover the amount of returns and repeated repairs they actually had. I can certainly bet that it is the highest returned and repaired product EVER in the history of Apple. But Apple most certainly will settle way before then because it will be quite embarrassing to show the actual numbers.
 
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Peperino

macrumors 6502a
Nov 2, 2016
786
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The existence of the Keyboard Service Program, that includes ALL of the butterfly laptops should be indication enough that there is a real issue of larger than normal failure rates otherwise why would it exist at all? Apple's own actions are pretty compelling evidence.

I applaud Apple for recognizing the butterfly keyboards are a larger than normal problem and taking reasonable steps to protect users from repair costs.
Exactly. Apple would not even care if the problem was large. Even Apple did a mea culpa statement apologizing for the massive problems. That shows that Baymore speaks without evidence whatsoever.
Though I would not applaud any company that overcharge high prices for a faulty product. Especially, when they are still selling them (although I do not know who will actually bÿ them), and when they never had any recall in place whatsoever.
 
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laz232

macrumors 6502
Feb 4, 2016
432
659
At a café near you
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that version 3 of the butterfly design basically corrected any issues. It then became an matter of preference and not functionality.

So in the eyes of Apple, the issue was resolved...but by then there had been so much bad publicity surrounding the term butterfly keyboard, that Apple did an about face. They had to. Even if there was nothing further to fix. To restore the confidence of millions of potential MacBook Pro buyers moving forward.
I have a 2018 model, which I believe is the third generation of the keyboard. After about six months I started having problems with keys not registering and double presses.I spoke with an authorised third-party repair person and she told me that the 2018 models still had problems and relatively high keyboard repair rates compare to pre-2015 models...

None of my prior 3 MacBooks have ever had keyboard problems.

I do find the butter fly keyboard is comfortable for typing, but the loudness even in the third gen is a bit annoying. Unreliability however is a deal breaker especially for a work machine that cost $3000...
 
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TracesOfArsenic

macrumors 6502
Feb 22, 2018
294
409
Am I the minority who doesn’t mind the butterfly keyboard? I haven’t had any problems with it. I do, however, like Apple’s magic keyboard more because of its key travel and satisfying click... I’m looking forward to when Apple introduces the scissor keyboard on the smaller MacBook Pro.
Reliability aside (because I have literally just returned mine due to 3 keyboard failures) I didn't hate the feel, the travel or the sound but when I go back to my partner's circa 2015 MBA it feels a lot nicer. The keys are a little squishy but not too squishy, the keys have more space between them so you can get a blind feel better and of course there's no touch bar so you've got a full row of physical keys up top (and inverted T arrows).

Thankfully the new 16" has fixed some of these issues!
 
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koruki

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2009
1,160
488
New Zealand
please define "a lot". In your answer you are continuing the problem. there are not a lot in any measurable way, there are a few, some. Certainly there is a defect rate, but it has never been proven to be very large at all. simply saying "many, many", or "a lot" doesn't get you there
you know the reason the phrase a lot was invented to indicate a large amount when I don't have an EXACT number. I said half the office, a normal office of about 15 - 20 people for IT developers that program on them throughout the day. I didn't know we weren't allowed to share real-life experiences unless we have the exact headcounts these days.
- - Post merged: - -

Except that almost everyone who has one loves them and has had no problems with them. I think it would make a better story on social influencing, that actually defective design.

I'd love just one of these "OMG there are so bad" types to come up with any statistics whatsoever. Wouldn't the after market warranty providers have a number? Certainly if they are repairing them, they must no how many
how many is ALMOST EVERYONE .. see what I did there
 

V_Man

macrumors regular
Nov 23, 2019
130
155
You can scream all you want, but those aren't facts. Those are individual stories from people that are really upset. Anecdotal.

I'm not saying the issue isn't there. I'm saying it's not a big enough deal to completely overhaul the design (took 4 years) and not even big enough to do it on all models. They still sell the butterfly design. This indicates the failure rate is acceptable enough to fix it through existing channels. If it impacted enough users, Apple would have no choice but to take faster action.

"High failure rate" is not a fact.

Watch Apple's actions. A major issue gets fixed...quickly. Not what we've seen with these keyboards.
Well having 4 years of laptop keyboards under a repair program speaks for itself. Defective design that Apple is now trying to save face on.
 

August West

macrumors regular
Aug 23, 2009
122
30
Land of Enchantment
Nothing meaningful comes out of class action suits.
Not true.

I had a home that was completely re-plumbed because of faulty polybutylene piping and installation. The faulty pipe, every last bit of it, was ripped out, replaced with copper, drywall repaired and painted. In addition, I was reimbursed for repairs and damages suffered from two previous leaks. Several thousand dollars worth of work even in mid '90's dollars. All done at the expense of the pipe manufactures because of a massive class action lawsuit. I didn't have to pay one cent to have the house put in proper order.

That being said, I agree not much ever comes of these types lawsuits. But ripping a house apart to replace the all the plumbing and having a sticky keyboard are few orders of magnitude apart.
 
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Mainsail

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2010
1,242
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I have a 2018 model, which I believe is the third generation of the keyboard. After about six months I started having problems with keys not registering and double presses.I spoke with an authorised third-party repair person and she told me that the 2018 models still had problems and relatively high keyboard repair rates compare to pre-2015 models...

None of my prior 3 MacBooks have ever had keyboard problems.

I do find the butter fly keyboard is comfortable for typing, but the loudness even in the third gen is a bit annoying. Unreliability however is a deal breaker especially for a work machine that cost $3000...
the most recent version of the BF KB was released summer 2019