Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

steve23094

macrumors 68030
Apr 23, 2013
2,645
1,363
"Apple has faced public scrutiny and many, many complaints". please define "many, many": 6, 100, 1000, 10% of owners? Seems more like a made up issue by a few loud influencers, maybe even paid influencers, than a real one. I'd say it was not many, many unless the defect rate exceeded say 2% of owners.

And no don't go saying, "but there is a lawsuit". it is simply fashionable to sue Apple for anything you can. Some have merit, many are thrown out.
If there wasn't a problem then there wouldn't be an extended repair program, which included adding the 2019 15" the moment it was released.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors 68030
Dec 7, 2014
2,829
3,673
Waste of everyone's time. Nothing meaningful comes out of class action suits.

The keyboard was redesigned. Let's move on.
As of today, neither the MacBook Air nor the 13-inch MacBook Air can be bought with a redesigned keyboard.

And that's ignoring that the lawsuit is about people who have already spent thousands on a machine with a broken keyboard. Are you telling them to just buy new?

"Apple has faced public scrutiny and many, many complaints". please define "many, many": 6, 100, 1000, 10% of owners? Seems more like a made up issue by a few loud influencers, maybe even paid influencers, than a real one. I'd say it was not many, many unless the defect rate exceeded say 2% of owners.

And no don't go saying, "but there is a lawsuit". it is simply fashionable to sue Apple for anything you can. Some have merit, many are thrown out.
There isn't just a lawsuit. There's also a repair program.

How many % does it affect? We don't know. But it does appear that, among people who own recent Macs, it's very likely you know at least one person with an affected keyboard.
 

BoycottCookApple

Suspended
Nov 27, 2019
32
10
If the lawsuit case found any guilty, it won't just incur a huge fine to the company but few more executives need to held responsible for the disaster it helps created by selling defective components over the years.
 

steve23094

macrumors 68030
Apr 23, 2013
2,645
1,363
"Apple has attempted to revise the butterfly keyboard several times to make it more durable, but ultimately, it's still prone to failure."

Hey MacRumors, rather than being an echo chamber, be responsible journalists and provide evidence to support your claim that the 2019 BF KB is still prone to failure. Other tech sites have acknowledged that it is much improved. So, if you are going to say it, then please back it up so we can benefit as consumers. Otherwise, print a retraction. This is just lazy reporting.
...because it's on the extended repair program.
 

x-evil-x

macrumors 601
Jul 13, 2008
4,661
2,398
I am just starting to get regular issues with 3 keys on my 2016 15” MBPro. I have about 11 months left to have it repaired but the repair just sticks the same faulty keyboard in it. So, best case I get another 3 years out of my Mac, vs the 8 years and 7 years on my 2011 13” and mid 2012 15” which are still going strong.

i might get the top case replaced and sell it on, put the proceeds towards a 16” instead, although the soldered in memory and ssd still bug me as they are true points of failure in computers.

on another note, the uk has a right to repair/refund covering up to 6 years from the purchase date on goods that have an inherent manufacturers fault. Like the keyboard that Apple acknowledges is faulty. This should be a strong case to push for a refund as the repair is not actually going to fix it.
id stretch that 11 months of your keyboard out till the end that way in 10 months from now you get a whole new top case and battery. not a bad deal imo.
 
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Winni

macrumors 68040
Oct 15, 2008
3,151
1,033
Germany.
What a pointless Class Action Lawsuit.....this is the world we live in today, we have to sue everything that moves.
This is NOT the world you live. Travel a bit around the world and you will see that it is just the COUNTRY you live in.
 

quadrakid

macrumors member
Jul 26, 2005
60
5
Waste of everyone's time. Nothing meaningful comes out of class action suits.

The keyboard was redesigned. Let's move on.
I’ve had the keyboard on my 13” MacBook Pro replaced 3 times. It’s a lot of time, effort and resources wasted. Each time the machine goes in for repair I lose valuable time away from work and income.

It’s now malfunctioning again.

wonder if I can join the class action from Australia?
 

Wando64

macrumors 6502a
Jul 11, 2013
589
668
Except that almost everyone who has one loves them and has had no problems with them. I think it would make a better story on social influencing, that actually defective design.

I'd love just one of these "OMG there are so bad" types to come up with any statistics whatsoever. Wouldn't the after market warranty providers have a number? Certainly if they are repairing them, they must no how many
Can YOU come up with any statistics whatsoever about your statement that “almost everyone who has one loves them”?

I‘ll give you one statistic of my own: The moment I tried one of this keyboards I was in disbelief as to how bad they are. Every time I tried them ever since, in the hope that they had improved on them, I still could not understand why would anyone put up with such a bad design. I am talking about the feeling of the keyboard without even taking into consideration the reports of failures and the attempts by Apple to remedy the situation by offering unprecedented extended warranties.
This is the only statistic I care about.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2009
1,344
1,534
LOL...the judge not allowing the lawsuit to be dismissed isn't some big victory for the plaintiffs. Also, the word "faulty" should be in quotes in the headline. Nobody has actually proven anything about the overall reliability of the butterfly keyboards yet. Bloggers screaming about anecdotal experiences isn't proof of anything other than anecdotal experiences.
 

bobob

macrumors 68030
Jan 11, 2008
2,970
1,785
I realize that all the cool kids are hating on the butterfly keyboard, but here is a thoughtful and divergent opinion via AppleInsider.com

Excerpt:

An absolute refusal to consider facts

This spring, AppleInsider uniquely reported details of real-world repair data from service partners going all the way back to 2012. We found that despite sales of "about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."
We also noted, "keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 'butterfly' MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program.
"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint. Failure rates on 2018 MacBook keyboards have also been lower than on the initial crop from 2016, but about the same as they were with 2017 MacBooks."
The bloggers who were really committed to their cause could dismiss these facts by making up logic suggesting that maybe people were suffering in silence, or buying cans of air to blow debris out of their keyboards on their own.

But the larger reality that can't be explained away is that Apple's sales of Macs are clearly growing, surging last year at the launch of new 2018 butterfly MacBook Pros and reaching a new peak this year right as Apple introduced its enhanced mid-2019 butterfly 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pro models.

That sales peak occurred before Apple's launch of the newest 16-inch non-butterfly model, which was widely speculated to address its keyboard feel.

One can opine about their personal preferences in keyboard feel, and it's perfectly legitimate to express a preference for keys with deeper travel and so on. But the most popular claim that activist bloggers were making was that Apple's keyboards were defective and that people were not buying them.

That's not a fact subject to opinion. Anyone saying that potential buyers have been racing to leave Apple to get competing notebooks from other vendors is simply wrong. It's not just incorrect, it's a $7 billion lie.
 
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ksec

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2015
1,006
946
I hope something will come of it! The dumbed down tech design of the forever-Apple butterfly keyboard is a travesty, costing many buyers a lot of money. Personally, when Applke releases a 13 or 15 in Macbook Pro I will sell my late 2018 15" Pro at a loss to buy one with the updated scissor keyboard. I'd like Apple to be onboard with fessing up with the difference! They have forced this keyboard on us it we wanted to be an Apple dev for too long!
Not to mention the so call Repair programme only allows you to "fix" your keyboard for up to three times.

I wish they just give something like $200 Credit for MBP 2016 - 2019 owners to let them buy newer MBP and put an end to their misery.
 

MikeZriel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2018
2
0
I have had my keyboard replaced twice, 4 days after getting it and almost 3 years after. Both times they did not charge me anything, you just have to be careful and not eat next to the laptop.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2009
1,344
1,534
We found that despite sales of "about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."
This is an important point: non-anecdotal statistics point to the overall reliability of the MBP increasing with the 2016 and later models, not decreasing. Those still aren't really official numbers, but it's a larger data set than anecdotes for sure.
 
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ksec

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2015
1,006
946
I realize that all the cool kids are hating on the butterfly keyboard, but here is a thoughtful and divergent opinion via AppleInsider.com

Excerpt:

An absolute refusal to consider facts

This spring, AppleInsider uniquely reported details of real-world repair data from service partners going all the way back to 2012. We found that despite sales of "about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."
We also noted, "keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 'butterfly' MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program.
"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint. Failure rates on 2018 MacBook keyboards have also been lower than on the initial crop from 2016, but about the same as they were with 2017 MacBooks."

The bloggers who were really committed to their cause could dismiss these facts by making up logic suggesting that maybe people were suffering in silence, or buying cans of air to blow debris out of their keyboards on their own.
But the larger reality that can't be explained away is that Apple's sales of Macs are clearly growing, surging last year at the launch of new 2018 butterfly MacBook Pros and reaching a new peak this year right as Apple introduced its enhanced mid-2019 butterfly 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pro models.
That sales peak occurred before Apple's launch of the newest 16-inch non-butterfly model, which was widely speculated to address its keyboard feel.
One can opine about their personal preferences in keyboard feel, and it's perfectly legitimate to express a preference for keys with deeper travel and so on. But the most popular claim that activist bloggers were making was that Apple's keyboards were defective and that people were not buying them.
That's not a fact subject to opinion. Anyone saying that potential buyers have been racing to leave Apple to get competing notebooks from other vendors is simply wrong. It's not just incorrect, it's a $7 billion lie.
The amount of utter BS from AppleInsider.

1. Not everyone was willing to paid ridiculous amount to fix their keyboard,
2. Not everyone have the problem has the luxury to have their MBP away from them for days if not weeks.
3. Most of them just decide to use an external keyboard.
4. The Data coming from specially programming community / Software business, roughly few thousands participants has been 60+% of MBP owner has those problems. ( Oh no these are not facts according to AI )

5. Not everyone has an Apple Store near them. Which means the Apple Store reported number are not an entire view of the problem

6. It is Appleinsider
7. No single Services Provider will have full details of the problem.
8. Did I mention Appleinsider?

8. Sales of Mac were not growing, it has been stable for years.
9. Active user of Mac were growing, but not at the rate as Apple has liked. nearly 60% of all Mac were sold to new users, and vast majority of them are from China. That is roughly 10M of new Mac users added to the Active number of Mac users. But did we see a 10M growth of new Mac user every year? No. ( That means there are certain number of users leaving )

10. And all these are Apple Official Numbers if you want to check them up.

11. Sorry did I mention Applesinsider?

12. The amount of BS coming from Appleinsider or DED every time Apple has a problem and they decide to spin it in Apple's way is beyond any word in the Oxford English Dictionary could possibly describe.
 

robjulo

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2010
1,303
2,108
Actually, your posts rarely have any facts (just like this thread). The vast, vast majority are grand sweeping pro-Apple opinions and defenses to any post critical of Apple. Go back and take a look at them.

Honestly, when I first came across your posts, I thought it was a parody account.


You mean being consistently right, basing my posts on facts, quoting the annual reports, and not freaking out over every little thing? Guilty.

Ok...we will see where this goes and if it fits the definition of nowhere in the sense that was pretty clear when I made the comment.

”Nowhere” would mean a small sum for affected users, a meaningless (to Apple) fine, or some sort of extended warranty program that essentially already exists. Those would not be examples of big wins for consumers, so it’s pointless.
- - Post merged: - -


That speculation. I’d recommend taking it to Apple and seeing what they’d do case by case. Tech isn’t designed to last forever anyway.
- - Post merged: - -


See? Told you guys...but you won’t even listen to an attorney unless he tells you to sue Apple for your $3.50 gift card.
 

MacDonaldTrump

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
318
718
Brisbane Australia
It is a flawed design, apple knows it, hence the remodels and program.

It didn’t cost $1000, it was not an iBook.

It was the PRO level device, something as simple as a keyboard, invented/designed a while ago, should work.

They charged ridiculous amount for untested, rushed design and let many people (who trusted them) down.

Since the G4, I trusted apples pro designs, I didn’t question or seek reviews.

Now I do all because of the 2016-19 debacles.

People that invested thousands have a devalued and ticking time bomb.

Apple should be made to feel a little of what they have tried to avoid owning.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2009
1,344
1,534
The amount of utter BS from AppleInsider.
Where are your own numbers? You don't have any. You make sweeping comments like "most of them decide to use an external keyboard" without any evidence to support it other than the fact that, yes, you can use an external keyboard with an MBP. You're also deliberately ignoring the publicly available sales numbers for the MBP. Sales have increased since the introduction of the butterfly keyboard, not decreased.
 
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CHA05 R31GN5

Suspended
Oct 31, 2019
165
257
United States
Actually, your posts rarely have any facts (just like this thread). The vast, vast majority are grand sweeping pro-Apple opinions and defenses to any post critical of Apple. Go back and take a look at them.

Honestly, when I first came across your posts, I thought it was a parody account.
Don't worry there are plenty more to follow them on this forum.
I don't know of any company that reports great or vast numbers affected. It's always a "small", "insignificant", "low", "limited", etc. number and unsurprisingly that quantifier tends to grow.
Even with Apple's known manufacturer defaults that they had to cover, like the NVIDIA GPU faults or a number of other service programs; it's not a coincidence that every one of them are worded with quantifiers to describe them as though most aren't affected.

I had the Apple Watch battery swell on the original and push the face off, hanging by the display connectors. Made an appointment, arrived to find 3 other people sitting at tables to get the same service. I was in/out in about 20 minutes, but coincidentally, I just so happened to see 3 other owners with this problem. The failures don't happen systematically and predictable or are evenly distributed. But, even during that interaction, sales staff for Apple are trained to say this is "rare". Give me a f'in break!

Check out the wording on every one of their service programs for Apple's use of each being a "small number". Bunch of marketing propaganda like some replies you'll find on here.

Apple Exchange + Repair Extension Programs
 

imom

macrumors regular
Feb 20, 2008
237
515
I'm one of the plaintiffs in this action but I don't expect to receive more than a few dollars for my trouble. The official Apple centre I used took 10 days to fix the keyboard so that's something I don't want Apple to get away with. Terrible service!
 
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CHA05 R31GN5

Suspended
Oct 31, 2019
165
257
United States
I'm one of the plaintiffs in this action but I don't expect to receive more than a few dollars for my trouble. The official Apple centre I used took 10 days to fix the keyboard so that's something I don't want Apple to get away with. Terrible service!
LOL. Took over two weeks to get a HomePod replaced from their trash can creating 13.2 software release. A '15 15" MBP took almost a month before I had it repaired for a battery problem that just so happened to have a power distribution circuit issue and required a logic board replacement, as well. Hmm...and just a few months go by with suddenly Apple creating the '15 MBP battery replacement program. I guess just another coincidence. AMIR?
Apple: We'll just use the wording for this one as " in certain circumstances" type of failure.
 
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MacDonaldTrump

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
318
718
Brisbane Australia
I had three different models, all faulty.
I had a bent ipad.
Last year was the worst apple year I have ever experienced and I felt it big time as I chose this year to invest heavily.

I’m the end, after emailing Tcook, I got a result and refunded.

I fought, and wasted a lot of time on this. It was mostly the store level poor service and time spent explaining and fighting for my rights that annoyed me.

I lost so much time, but so much faith in a product that WAS much better.

I now just won’t invest as heavily, it lost its sheen and is now just a machine
 

tharitm

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2009
130
32
The moment Apple let people from their Genius Bar doing the repairs speak, they will loose this suit. Just having the sheer number of the number of keyboard replacement per serial number would be a viable data point.