Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

[Wackery]

The EU is trash

 

[siddavis]

Nobody needs Apple...

Nobody needs sideloading on iOS.

 

[siddavis]

That's where we see things different. I don't see it as an overreach of power. I see it as a well reasoned defence of consumer rights. We own our devices and should be able to do what we want with them. If I want to smash it on the pavement I can and I should also be able to install the software I want.

I also believe this for game consoles and I hope one day it happens there too.

Should you be able to put gasoline in your diesel, or your EV? It’s yours after all.

 

[siddavis]

No it's not. Something like this is resolved by the government fining you and if need be, freezing your assets and draining your bank accounts. Guns are far from the only force governments can apply. Look at western sanctions on Russia for instance. NATO hasn't fired a single shot at Russia, but they're still coming down severely on Russia through economic measures.

Yeah? How’s that working out for Ukraine? Ultimately, those sanctions are backed by the use of lethal force. Again, there is a monopoly on who is allowed to compel in this manner.

 

[Beautyspin]

Massive government overreach. Play hardball Apple and threaten to pull out of the EU. They need you more than you need them.

Well, they could pull out and kiss goodbye to a quarter of their annual revenue and profits. The CEO who does this is not going to be the most popular CEO for the shareholders. They will ensure that the CEO and the board that approves this move are all kicked out. I doubt they will ever get a job anywhere, even as janitors.

 

[siddavis]

If Google is the only competitor left, that opens the door to literally any other alternative to take Apple's place. I'm sure Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Samsung or any number of other companies would love the opportunity to become a major player in the mobile OS space.

Riiiiight. Forcing one competitor to be just like the other makes for a compelling landscape for the consumer. What you’re describing is a potential monopoly which you would then turn to your precious central government to ‘solve’. Broken leg fallacy…

 

[siddavis]

Well when it comes to the government and what they enact. It actually does. For instance see the right to repair movement in the USA and how factory and farm equipment makers are being forced to provide repair manuals and replacement parts to independent repair shops and end-users on a state-by-state basis.

For instance in some states even Tesla is having to provide full detailed manuals of every part of their vehicles for repair reasons. This isn't even in the EU, this is the USA.

But Ma! Everybody’s doin it!

 

[Beautyspin]

The law is well intentioned but I think it goes too far.

Generally I think that its important to look at scale with this sort of thing, as a platform becomes crucial for business in the way iOS and Android have, the need for regulation grows, and it is definitely clear that the iPhone has grown to the point that it could be justified in forcing the platform to open up a bit.
I think they go too far here with things like the default app replacement and voice assistant replacement. These seem like vast overreach as they aren't just about apps on the phone but about the APIs that would enable apps to talk to each other that could require a vast redesign of iOS.

1. Only by making the default apps and voice assistants replaceable, they plan to make them competitive. Currently, even though SIRI is lousy, you have to use it but if it can be completely replaced, Apple will be forced to make SIRI better so that people will choose SIRI. (I do not know if SIRI is better or not, I am using that as an example).
2. Any API that is available for the first-party apps should also be made available for any and all third-party apps. This will lead to fairer competition. Presently, Apple's first-party apps are surviving because they have an unfair advantage of being able to access additional APIs. I could be wrong in my assessment, but we will never know unless the APIs are made available to all and still the first-party apps shine.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don’t see why Apple should be forced to treat their product, the iPhone, the same way as they treat their MacOS software devices.

It's about providing flexibility and choice for consumers and developers on the iOS software platform.

 

[Beautyspin]

Question... what if Apple is forced to allow sideloading... but hardly any developers do it?

Android has just as many developers as iOS... and Android has always allowed sideloading. Yet almost all Android developers go through Google's Play Store which takes the same 15% or 30% cut as Apple.

Weird, huh?

Maybe it's just easier to let the big platform store handle the entire process instead of developers setting up their own servers, payment gateways, and whatnot. And dealing with taxes in 150 countries!

I dunno. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

It's just weird that there's this drumbeat growing to demand Apple open up its platform.

And yet Android has always been wide open... but Android developers are choosing to go through Google's store and pay Google their cut.

Maybe sideloading isn't the magic bullet after all...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, but think of all the alternate AppStores that will come up. Stores that will allow all the apps that Apple does not allow. Also, if Apple rejects an app, the developer can go to another store or open their own store. This means that the iron grip that Apple has over the developer is gone. Now, they are almost at a similar status whereas currently, it is either Apple's way or the highway. This will cut Apple down to size. That is always better.

 

[Beautyspin]

"Margrethe Vestager said last month that she expects the DMA to come into force 'sometime in October.'"

Maybe sometime in October 2032 after the inevitable legal challenges.

What legal challenges? It is a law passed by a lawmaking body.

 

[Beautyspin]

This comes to a fundamental difference in perspective, some people live in a world where corporate regulation is a net negative while others realize that sometimes companies don't act in the best interest of the world and the world could be a better place if they were prevented from just doing whatever they want.

I think they overreach by far on this law by requiring far more than simply opening up to third party app stores and side loading but by essentially forcing apple to build APIs for inter-app communication and interoperability in messaging standards (that don't make technical sense).

The interoperability of messaging services and everything else in the DMA provisions hints at breaking up the lock-in that they are trying to achieve. The DMA wants to ensure that Apple cannot expand by ensuring lock-in. If they want to expand, it should be because they are making better products. Since Apple claims that they make better products, this should not affect Apple at all.

 

[siddavis]

Guns are only needed when other avenues do not exist, which they do here. Please lay out the details of how guns will inevitably be required to enforce this law rather than courts, lawyers, and banks. This should be a doozy.

You keep bringing up finances and banks. Tell me, what backs the US Dollar?

 

[Beautyspin]

Fantastic!

I am thrilled to see the EU going big here.

It’s long past time on some of this stuff.

Yes, I hope other countries including USA take a leaf out of this and implement similar changes. Anybody knows how this compares with the Antitrust bill that is coming up in the USA?

 

[siddavis]

What is on your own computing devices should be up to you, not Apple.

It is. I make the choice by pressing Buy or Get. Step one was selecting the device for myself. I didn’t even need my state governor to tell me which one!

 

[Michael Scrip]

Yeah, but think of all the alternate AppStores that will come up. Stores that will allow all the apps that Apple does not allow. Also, if Apple rejects an app, the developer can go to another store or open their own store. This means that the iron grip that Apple has over the developer is gone.

Yeah I understand the theory.

I'm just saying there is already sideloading and alternative app stores on Android... but hardly any developers do it. Android developers still overwhelmingly use the official Google Play Store and thus give Google their 15% or 30% cut.

Are we to believe that sideloading will be extremely popular on iOS even though it hasn't been popular on Android?

It'll be an interesting experiment.

Personally... if I want some little notetaking app and it's only available on "Bob's App Store" or some random website... I'm gonna seriously reconsider downloading it and giving my payment information to them.

And that was my original point. Maybe Apple is forced to allow sideloading and alternative app stores... but people simply don't want to do it for a variety of reasons.

Maybe an app gets 10,000 downloads a day on the official App Store... but only 300 downloads a day on Bob's App Store.

Again... it'll be interesting to see the results.

We know there are only two major mobile platforms today... iOS and Android... and only one currently allows sideloading and alternative app stores... Android.

But Android hasn't exactly been the poster child for sideloading and alternative app stores.

 

[Beautyspin]

Yeah I understand the theory.

I'm just saying there is already sideloading and alternative app stores on Android... but hardly any developers do it. Android developers still overwhelmingly use the official Google Play Store and thus give Google their 15% or 30% cut.

Are we to believe that sideloading will be extremely popular on iOS even though it hasn't been popular on Android?

It'll be an interesting experiment.

Personally... if I want some little notetaking app and it's only available on "Bob's App Store" or some random website... I'm gonna seriously reconsider downloading it and giving my payment information to them.

And that was my original point. Maybe Apple is forced to allow sideloading and alternative app stores... but people simply don't want to do it for a variety of reasons.

Maybe an app gets 10,000 downloads a day on the official App Store... but only 300 downloads a day on Bob's App Store.

Again... it'll be interesting to see the results.

We know there are only two major mobile platforms today... iOS and Android... and only one currently allows sideloading and alternative app stores... Android.

But Android hasn't exactly been the poster child for sideloading and alternative app stores.

All Samsung phones have Galaxy stores. Amazon has an app store that is popular. I use an ad-blocker from F-Droid, which is again an app store. I use the default play store because it does not cost me as a user and I get all my apps there, but I do not use too many paid apps as I do not need them.
Apps like Facebook may stay on the official Appstore because they are free and do not have to pay anything. But apps like EPIC games will have to build their own Appstore or list themselves in some other app store because the official Appstore will not allow them to be listed. So, it does not matter if it gets only 30 downloads from Bob's Appstore.

About Android not being a poster child for sideloading and alternative app stores, I do not know what you meant by that.

• The Top App Stores for Android Apps 2021
  • Google Play
  • Amazon Appstore
  • Huawei AppGallery
  • Tencent MyApp
  • APKMirror
  • Samsung Galaxy Apps
  • Sony Apps
  • Aptoide
  • F-Droid

 

[siddavis]

Glad to see you admit this talk of guns being required here is all just pointless drivel as it relates to this law.

Nope. Guns and force still required to back the punishments you describe. All backed by force and only one side has a monopoly on being able to do that. Prove that statement false.

 

[turbineseaplane]

If they want to expand, it should be because they are making better products. Since Apple claims that they make better products, this should not affect Apple at all.

Wouldn’t it be nice to get a fire lit under Apple again, particularly on iOS …. Particularly on software

They are flat out coasting in iOS and iPadOS land right now.

They keep spec bumping hardware that largely doesn’t need it, while the anemic software keeps going 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back..

All while continuing to raise prices mostly across the board.

Classic monopolistic lemon squeezing while jamming more and more services in users faces

 

[Michael Scrip]

About Android not being a poster child for sideloading and alternative app stores, I do not know what you meant by that.

• The Top App Stores for Android Apps 2021
  • Google Play
  • Amazon Appstore
  • Huawei AppGallery
  • Tencent MyApp
  • APKMirror
  • Samsung Galaxy Apps
  • Sony Apps
  • Aptoide
  • F-Droid

You posted a list of alternative app stores on Android.

But I already know they exist.

What I'm saying is... out of the 3 billion people who use Android phones... where to they download the majority of Android apps from?

Answer: Google Play

But you're right. Android has alternative app stores... so maybe Apple should too.

Like I said... it'll be interesting to see the results. I don't have any skin in this game.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[vipergts2207]

Companies compete through their ideas. Limit the ideas, limit the competition. That answers your question. An important idea that Apple brought to the smartphone marketplace was the walled garden. That idea is being undermined, therefore competition is being undermined. It’s that simple.

This proposal is much more far reaching than sideloading, but I once again find myself arguing with someone saying “the law isn’t going to change anything meaningful” and “this law is really important” at the same time.

The less actual impact this law has, the more I think it’s not worth actually making a law for. The more impact it has on a company’s ability to create and pursue a particular business model in competition with other existing business models and with the possibility for yet more business models to be developed, the more damaging I think such a law would be.

There is no harm being mitigated here, but it is forcing change in a product ecosystem I’m quite satisfied with and driving homogeneity. There are people who would like the EU to mandate all phones be available in their favorite color if they could.

When did I say this law wouldn’t change anything meaningful?

 

[roland.g]

You'll still find 99% of the applications will be released on the official stores as that is where the vast majority of users go to find new apps. Nothing about that will change.

But you will find part of this proposed document from the EU is about money. Developers ability to charge for apps directly using their own payment systems. So in this situation I as a developer could release an app for free on the iOS App Store and then once you launch the app I ask to charge you money to use the app and Apple wouldn't get a cut of those proceeds.

This may alter the dynamic of the App Store with Apple charging developers a subscription to list apps or charge based on download counts for apps that are commercial but list as "free" on Apples store etc

I don’t buy apps that start free and then charge. Give me a good app and I’ll pay for it or I’ll move on. Most of those free apps are scams.

 

[Seoras]

I hope they split iOS into 2 branches.
One for EU and anyone else hell bent on cracking iOS open.
The other for everyone who enjoys security and privacy.
Let's see how quickly EU citizens (&MEPs!) vote with their installation choice.
There has to be some advantages to Brexit surely?

 

[DaRev]

Every business that is being shaken down should just quit right? Like the bakery paying protection money to the local mob they may lose 30% every month but hey they still made 70% right?

No. This is why we have competition law. This is why there are movements all over the world (South Korea, The EU, specific states in America) all working to undo Apples anti-competitive one-store-only policy.

And thank goodness, we're winning for consumers everywhere.

EDIT:// Also I did want to speak more about this. You asked about us still releasing things on iOS. The 30% cut from Apple did actually make us stop supporting some older apps on iOS while we continued to support them on other platforms (Windows and macOS). That is simply because that 30% cut is the equivalent of several employees.

We also transitioned one app to be "free" but once launched asked you to login to an account which is paid for outside of the app. The problem is due to Apples rules we're not allowed to tell users any website address or have any buttons that leads them out of the app so that they can pay for the subscription the app requires on our own website. Similar to how Netflix can't do that either.

The double standard that Apple has here is quite frustrating because if we sold a physical good like Amazon or UberEats we don't have to give Apple a 30% cut. They get nothing and we can use our own payment system in the app, for instance from Stripe our preferred card processor. But because we provide a digital good somehow it's worth less than a physical good in Apples eyes. This is really ridiculous when we are still paying employees and paying for physical resources to backup what we deliver to consumers (we pay for servers and we have to buy software and computers to actually make the software we sell digitally).

So ya know, there's a lot going on here, the 30% cut is for us terrible. It's higher than sales tax and card processing fees combined and Apple provides very little value to us in exchange for that which is why as I said for some of our apps we abandoned them on the iOS platform and for other apps moved to subscriptions that are started from our own website.

I want to sell my goods and services on Walmart and Amazon and I do not want them taking a cut, I also want them to promote my products for free and give them shelf space. That is fair by your reckoning since Walmart and Amazon take an even larger cut of physical goods.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I want to sell my goods and services on Walmart and Amazon and I do not want them taking a cut, I also want them to promote my products for free and give them shelf space. That is fair by your reckoning since Walmart and Amazon take an even larger cut of physical goods.

Your analogy is broken on several levels here.