Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

[obviouslogic]

That was AT&T’s and IBM’s business model as well.

IBM used Microsoft’s operating system and Intel’s CPU… Try again. However, IBM dumped a lot of its hardware business to concentrate on the Internet.

AT&T was forced to break up the Bell Telephone system because they controlled the entire US market, basically keeping any competitions from entering the market.

Besides that, what exactly is your point?

 

[firewood]

Nope. They can only appeal if they are designated as Gatekeepers and that too against being designated as gatekeepers only.
Digital Markets Act Now Firmly on its Way

Apple doesn’t have to do this appeal. All the individuals in the EU whose privacy would be reduced by these silly inter-op policies could sue and appeal.

 

[Beautyspin]

It’s probably been mentioned, but I don’t think this will hold up to a court challenge. The EU seems to have decided on a specific set of companies they wanted to target and then made a very specific set of rules that would only affect those companies, but no EU member companies. It’s a discriminatory proposal.

That said, if Apple is forced to allow sideloading then they should set up a team that checks these Apps. They can look for Apps that have malware or abuse your privacy by sharing data or ignoring rules that prevent tracking (all super easy to do if nobody is vetting your Apps).

They can publish an easily searchable database so consumers can see what these Apps are doing. All perfectly legal since Apple is simply telling the truth about how these Apps work. Apple can scream about privacy/security going down with sideloading, but it’s only a prediction. Showing it actually happening would prove Apple was tight, and would provide compelling evidence for a court challenge.

You must be kidding. First, let them vet their App Store properly so that it does not have any scam apps. It is beyond embarrassing that Nearly 2 percent of Apple's top-grossing apps on one day were scams and they have cost people $48 million. Let them first look into this and then we can talk about the this task force that you are talking about. Lol!

 

[Beautyspin]

Apple doesn’t have to do this appeal. All the individuals in the EU whose privacy would be reduced by these silly inter-op policies could sue and appeal.

I do not see that as possible as far as I can see from the articles I read.

 

[Beautyspin]

WOW! A reasonable response, many thanks!

I agree with your comment implying hypocrisy in principle but I would offer this...

Many of the folks who want the iOS store to remain untouched tell those who want alt-stores and alt-payments to "get and Android" is because if the current Apple ecosystem is legislated into extinction there is no place for us to go for the experience we currently enjoy. The current iOS ecosystem is one of a kind.

Does that make sense?

Today those in favor of the "alts" have somewhere to go for more freedom with their devices, it called Android. I concede that the cost of that freedom is you don't get Apple hardware but we all need to make choices right? You may love the look of a Ford Mustang but want a Chevy engine in it, well guess what, you can't without "jailbreaking" your car. Those in favor of the current Apple "walled garden" have no other ecosystem to go to that offers a one stop shop for apps and payments with a focus on privacy.

Hopefully that helps explain some of the perceived hypocrisy of the "go buy an Android" statement.

Apple could spin off its App Store so that it becomes a different company in each country. This could ensure that it does not hit the Gate Keeper definition in any country. Problem solved. /s

 

[Abazigal]

Since when does the App Store take power from developers and gives it to the end users? Its simply a troll under a bridge asking consumers for payment to get to the other side. No one that plays Diablo 3 with MacOS uses the Apple App Store, they merely purchase it online thru secure web pages and then access the game through through the cloud. Apple could have worked out more viable deals to direct payments to developers, but since they didn't, most developers sell their MacOS software via their web sites. Yes I know the iOS/IPadOS software via the App Store is the only way you can purchase apps, but is it all the cake you really want?

Take a feature like ATT or Sign In with Apple. Left to their own devices, there would be zero incentive for developers to support a feature which, while useful to the end user, holds zero benefit for them. This is an example where Apple is able to enforce the adoption of such features through their control over the iOS App Store.

The itunes payment option also means that developers never get my credit card details, and I am able to track my purchases and subscriptions via a single page in the App Store, which makes for easier monitoring. Rescinding an ongoing subscription is also as simple as one tap in the App Store as well.

Or even something as basic as the recent news about Apple forcing developers to update their apps. Some developers are complaining that it’s extra work for them, and my reaction is - it’s about time.

What the App Store does is make developers sell their apps on Apple’s terms, not the developers, and it so happens that Apple’s terms are more or less in line with my own priorities and vested interests as a consumer. I desire privacy, security, ease of use and the reality is that Apple is in a better position to deliver on this promise than any of the developers themselves.

This is why I have on more than one occasion likened the buying of an iphone to joining a union. Yes, there are annoying parts, but as a whole, it gives us users a collective voice to force app makers to behave. If there are rival app stores or the ability to sideload, then the user base can be divided, losing power to app developers. an iphone is like joining a union.

So if you ask me, this whole fight has never been about right or wrong, but about power, who has it, and who will be the one to hold on to it at the end of the day.

 

[dk001]

Isn't that the developer's decision?

Developers realized they could make more income, steady reoccurring income, if they do subscriptions.

I'm not saying I like it... but that's why they do it.

Developers could offer one-time payments in the App Store right now if they wanted. They don't need an alternative indie store to do it.

I can only answer that based on comments in multiple venues by current developers.
I can say that even crap apps are part and parcel of that model. I know Apple started pushing this a few years back (2018?) as they still pulled 30% across the sub.
Here is an interesting article from MacWorld … https://www.macworld.com/article/231813/apple-push-to-subscriptions.html

 

[Beautyspin]

Actually there might be, per the dev agreement all apps (that are allowed by Apple) must maintain a presence on the iOS store even if they choose to be available via other stores, eliminating exclusive distribution agreements which are anti-consumer anyway and no one should have a problem with.

Those Apple chooses to not allow in their store are free to do what they want.

If I haven't made it clear already I don't care if people want to throw their data and privacy away as long as I am not forced via legislation into doing the same thing.

Really? So, Apple can reject developer's submissions but developers cannot reject being listed in the Apple Store? Will Apple collect 15% (or 30%) from even those developers who are not interested in listing in the App Store? You think that is fair?

 

[christophermdia]

Europe is a poor nation, always looking for excuses to sue american companies for extra $$. Apple should make a stripped down iPhone …. Possibly XR available to EU only … then give them a stripped down App Store with it … Pro users can get a “Pro“ App Store … but not make the pro available in Europe … lets see how legislatures bitch that they have an inferior phone to the rest of the world despite having the freedom to buy apps for 30% cheaper

 

[pacalis]

I am happy with Apple opening up its OS and AppStore to foster competition and increase interoperability. This is a good move by the EU. This will bring Apple down to its knees. Apple can no longer hold developers as hostages as they can move to other app stores. They cannot hold users as hostages as interoperability can make it easier for them to switch platforms. It will be forced to listen to its users and developers and heed their requests. How is that not a win?

You may not realize that when I buy iPhone, I am intentionally buying that app store. It is a feature.

It was simply too hard to manage all my kids accounts on android so I switched to Apple.

What you are supporting is a nightmare for parents, and most nearly everyone I for whom their phone has surpassed either their capability or interest to manage (and I suspect that is the vast majority of users).

 

[icanhazmac]

Really? So, Apple can reject developer's submissions but developers cannot reject being listed in the Apple Store? Will Apple collect 15% (or 30%) from even those developers who are not interested in listing in the App Store? You think that is fair?

Yup, sure do. To get your dev account for a paltry $99/year those are the rules. Don't want to have your app on the Apple store... no problem, your dev account is $1,000,000/yr, I'm all for it.

 

[Beautyspin]

Yup, sure do. To get your dev account for a paltry $99/year those are the rules. Don't want to have your app on the Apple store... no problem, your dev account is $1,000,000/yr, I'm all for it.

Let Apple do this, and see how fast dev's will desert Apple land, it will become a desert. For $99 they are not mortgaging their lives. The DMA and Antitrust bills couldn't come sooner. Now, Apple will have to beg the developers to be on their store.

 

[Beautyspin]

You may not realize that when I buy iPhone, I am intentionally buying that app store. It is a feature.

It was simply too hard to manage all my kids accounts on android so I switched to Apple.

What you are supporting is a nightmare for parents, and most nearly everyone I for whom their phone has surpassed either their capability or interest to manage (and I suspect that is the vast majority of users).

Parenting is a personal choice and hence I do not want to make any comments because they will become personal.
iOS has about a quarter of the global market share whereas Android has 75% of the global market share. Parents using Android devices are doing fine with their parenting so I am convinced it is not a strong argument for supporting iOS "for that reason".

 

[pacalis]

Apple could spin off its App Store so that it becomes a different company in each country. This could ensure that it does not hit the Gate Keeper definition in any country. Problem solved. /s

They won't do this. The app store is not a product or company or even a store. It is part of the OS.

They may however form an independent distributor for specialty crap iEurophones for the EU market, or iEurocrap distributor agreements, while making all their other global phones interoperable and unlocked for sane global markets...

Or something like that.

 

[pacalis]

Parenting is a personal choice and hence I do not want to make any comments because they will become personal.
iOS has about a quarter of the global market share whereas Android has 75% of the global market share. Parents using Android devices are doing fine with their parenting so I am convinced it is not a strong argument for supporting iOS "for that reason".

It's not about parenting. I pay more money for Apple because it makes managing phones easier.

If you take that away, it reduces the value of the product to the consumer. It does not enhance it.

Maybe for some devs its the opposite, but your distribution agreements are a business decision so I do not want to make any comments about that because it is about your corporate self-interest. ; )

 

[Beautyspin]

Apple’s entire business model is about tight vertical integration with hardware, software, and services… this is what makes them competitive with other OEMS who just grab a copy of Android and use that instead of developing their own platform.

You seem to be under the illusion that if Apple makes a feature phone and charges thousands of dollars for it, people will still buy them and let it retain its market share. It will become a niche phone maker with sales in the thousands, not billions.

So if this passes, iOS devices no longer have that unique advantage and may not be worth Apple’s time to re-architect their platform… They’ll either abandon the EU, or create a completely closed “feature” phone, with no 3rd party developer support and no App Store.

They will not abandon the EU as that means it will lose about $90 billion per annum revenue to Samsung or Google. There is no way shareholders are supporting this move.

This is part of the EU’s push to force Apple out so they can reach their goal of a single platform (Android) where every user only has access to the exact same software, services, ports, and technologies.

Why would the EU want a single platform?

 

[Beautyspin]

Again, I am being FORCED by legislation to make that choice.

Why not let the market decide this instead of brainless politicians, you leave Apple and if enough of you exist and Apple loses enough customers then they will change their model.

The playing field was not level until now. This law makes it a level playing field for everyone. Now, let us let the market decide which ecosystem is better. We cannot let an ecosystem thrive at the cost of developers and at the cost of limiting user's choices.

 

[Beautyspin]

How much of this about “standards”, and how much of this is about “…give us back doors or we’re going to make your life miserable”? Because if it’s about standards, maybe the European’s should focus on the ten so so types of a/c wall outlets BEFORE fretting over what’s plugged into them. And if it’s about back doors, Apple, don’t back down.

You must be kidding. Apple backs down everywhere except the USA because it can get away there. Even there, it is now relenting.

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[Sf844]

Have you ever considered that Apple(as well as other digital giants) see themselves as "the government"?
It is all about power, anybody who thinks that it is about some dumb sideloading(or money) is extremely naive.
The real question here is: do people trust digital corporations more than they trust their actual governments?

I know a lot of wealthy pr1ck5, both individuals and companies, think of themselves as nations.

That’s when reality kicks in: none of them have the ability to charge taxes, create laws or use violence in any territory against real governments and nations.

So at the end of the day they’re just pr1ck5 counting cotton paper issued by real governments, hoping those allow them to keep counting.

 

[Beautyspin]

I’m not seeing the merits on the arguments. Apple is not the sole player in these realms, there’s plenty of choice. The way I “think it’s supposed to work” is for public desire, not law, to move Apple to make these changes. If they never do, my opinion is that’s within their rights to operate their hardware and software unless and until it becomes anti-competitive or wrong for them to do so. I don’t think they’re at that point yet, but again, that’s just my personal opinion.

Apple is the sole player in the realm of iOS. After the DMA passes, it will not be. Let us see how it fares then. Once they have sold their hardware and software, they have no more rights to them. Apple is a monopoly: Apple may already have lost the strategic battle over antitrust market definition in multiple European jurisdictions: App Store monopoly. As written by an Apple supporter and apologist.

 

[threesixty360]

I'm not the one arguing that allowing third-party app stores will compromise the security of Apple's devices. Apple is. If iOS and macOS are inherently more secure than Windows or Android, then this is a nonsense argument. If what Apple is arguing is true, then macOS and iOS are truly security swiss-cheese and can only be secure when functionality is restricted or when their market share is negligible.

You know when you have an ultra important system for your work that needs to have zero problems. And you purposely don’t connect it to a network so that you can NEVER have malware. Or you never use a usb stick so nothing can get into it that way either.

Well are you saying that is a wrong approach if you need zero issues? Because as draconian as that may seem it is an approach that 100% works. And that’s the point… does your approach to security bring you the desired result? Does a DMZ approach and complete cut off actually do the job.

Or are you going to have more and more intricate security features within a system that can be exploited anyway? (Anything coded can be exploited generally).

Apples approach, just like the “no back doors” idea works because the logic is sound. Where there are less holes in the first place the more secure everything can be. It’s simple and works.

 

[avz]

I know a lot of wealthy pr1ck5, both individuals and companies, think of themselves as nations.

That’s when reality kicks in: none of them have the ability to charge taxes, create laws or use violence in any territory against real governments and nations.

So at the end of the day they’re just pr1ck5 counting cotton paper issued by real governments, hoping those allow then to keep counting.

LOL. And who do you think are the "real governments" and "real nations"? Central banks are private so "real governments" don't exactly issue that "cotton paper".

Apple is being paid directly by the customers so it does not rely on a "real government" as much as you would like to think. "Real government" is more of a nuisance from Apple's perspective.

 

[threesixty360]

Even I don't get the mentality of Apple consumers who have been in the ecosystem for so long knowing fully well that it fosters lockin and hence will be regulated by governments at ome time in the future. Why did you keepbuying Apple products and make it so big that it meets the threshold for Gatekeepers according to DMA?

I doubt regulations eill halt development of better technologies. They can submit their standards and get approval.

All areas such as the health sector, automotive sector, power sector etc., are heavily regulated. Is there no innovation in those sectors? Especially coming from the followers of a company that patents the hell out of rounded corners as if they are the pinnacle of innovation, this is rich.

People keep enjoying the apple eco system because it’s makes their lives better!
It’s similar to the way people keep using Google even though it’s use of their data is bordering on illegal.. it makes their lives easier so they put up with it.

And you must be joking about the car industry and medical industry innovation stuff. They move at a snails pace! The standards employed their are for safety reasons, nothing else. Smartphones do not have safety problems beyond battery and radiation issues (which are both heavily regulated and take years to change).

Even in software where we have standards (the web) it’s a mess. And has led to Google WebKit and apple blink implementing things when they can because the standards bodies are far too slow.

You wouldn’t have a smart phone industry like it is now if the EU regulation stuff was in place a decade or so ago. Regulation ALWAYS slows down innovation.

 

[Beautyspin]

About the response one could expect… same type of drivel we been getting from Google all the years about privacy, or why you shouldn’t expect any, and a diversionary shot at the CCP. Though doth protest too loudly.

All while avoiding the obvious. IF this is about standards, why attack this particular device, a minority device outside the US, why attack iMessage, with so few users outside the US, as well as the App Store and iCloud… especially when Apple customers are not even asking for this?

They are not attacking Apple… they are attacking Apple customers.

We'll truly know whether Apple's customers want it or not if this is allowed and they overwhelmingly reject it by not using even a single one of the new changes. Until then, it is only you who does not want it.

 

[Beautyspin]

People keep enjoying the apple eco system because it’s makes their lives better!
It’s similar to the way people keep using Google even though it’s use of their data is bordering on illegal.. it makes their lives easier so they put up with it.

And you must be joking about the car industry and medical industry innovation stuff. They move at a snails pace! The standards employed their are for safety reasons, nothing else. Smartphones do not have safety problems beyond battery and radiation issues (which are both heavily regulated and take years to change).

Even in software where we have standards (the web) it’s a mess. And has led to Google WebKit and apple blink implementing things when they can because the standards bodies are far too slow.

You wouldn’t have a smart phone industry like it is now if the EU regulation stuff was in place a decade or so ago. Regulation ALWAYS slows down innovation.

I get why people use Apple's ecosystem. My response was a tongue-in-cheek response to somebody asking why people buy Apple's products knowing fully well that it is a locked system, as if that is the sole reason why people buy iPhones.