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Sorry if I offended everyone when I expressed my opinion, if I state that it's my opinion will you not declare me a troll?

In my opinion whatever small fixes and upgrades it includes are worthy of a patch, and the "notable" upgrades and neat features it includes are admittedly a bit of a stretch to include in a patch, but maybe some sought of... $30 upgrade pack?[/inmyopinion]

I would stick with Tiger but soon enough software will require 10.5.x and I'll be forced to spend quite a large amount of money for a reason that hardly justifies the cost.[/inmyopinion]

I would "keep quiet" about it if this .. what do I call it aside from patch .. upgrade? if this upgrade didn't contain bootcamp. I might consider doing a full install of ubuntu on this macbook, though I have enjoyed the mac os and would like to leave it with its hardware.

I'm not trying to start a fire, I would just like to know why I should pay so much for what benefits me so little. Or advice on how to live without it. (ie. optional bootcamps if they exist; yes yes I am googling for it)

I clearly recognize a windows-user in you... why? because you seem to be used to major changes in every release. Well, Leopard has major changes, but not like the changes between eg xp and vista.
when you take a look at every non-windows system (solaris, linux, OSX) they are all following the 'release many, update often'-line of thinking, which means every few years, there is a major release, which has fixes every error of the previous version, and offers a bunch of new features. just look at ubuntu: every 6 months, there is a new version, and you have to download it, you can't upgrade you're previous OS toi the new version.
Windows on the other hand is always waiting like 4 to 5 years for a major release, and then they come up with a minor release (95(late 94) & 98(mid 97), 2000(early 2000) & XP(early 2002), Vista(2007) & Vienna/windows7(expected 2008-2009)). and in the time being between the major releases, the systems are constantly patched, so you end up with a completely f*cked up system(come on: 884 patches on my XP???). These patches slow down your system, and can't completely remove the problems, cause the problem is in the systems core. the patches merely get rid of the consequences of those problems.
Meanwhile, OSX is constantly adjusting itself from the core, and every 2-3 years, there is a major release, in which you get new major features (TM, spaces, hello?) and a slightly improved system architecture, which is different, but still very familiar to the previous one, while in winodws, you get a completely different system with every new release (Vista: no File, Edit, View anymore? XP: what was up with the start-menu? etcetc)
and last about the price: 150$ every 2-3 years is still less then 400$ every 5 years ;)
 
G'day,

I'm a first time mac owner and the more I read about 10.5, the more I wonder why I should pay (as I understand it to be) $129 US dollars for this patch they call leopard?

I'm more inclined to install ubuntu on this.. but what does it mean for dual booting if I don't have the official bootcamp.. which conveniantly comes with leopard? -_-

On Slashdot, you would get modd'ed down immediately (-1, Flamebait).

Sorry if I offended everyone when I expressed my opinion, if I state that it's my opinion will you not declare me a troll?

"The patch called Leopard" - that is not expressing your opinion, that is a deliberate insult.
 
PatrickF said:
luker said:
I don't have the official bootcamp.. which conveniantly comes with leopard? -_-
So many people mis-understand what BootCamp actually does. The only thing that the BootCamp application does is:
Partition your harddrive without loosing your existing data
Burn a CD with drivers for Windows
Once you've partitioned your drive there's absolutely no need for BootCamp anymore (unless you want to undo that partition without loosing your OS X data).

You don't need the driver CD for a start if you're going to install Linux on there. So you have two options here.
Use BootCamp to partition your drive, install Linux and don't worry about BootCamp expiring (you won't be using it anymore)
Pop in your OS X installation DVD and use Disk Utility to repartition your drive yourself, then re-install OS X. After that you can install Linux in the other partition you created yourself.
Thanks very much, I'll look into these methods.

frerin said:
If the concern goes to a fully working Boot manager, there always also is the chance to use:

http://refit.sourceforge.net/

Beside Bootcamp, you would get a new Finder ( I suppose ) and better Core animated Graphics. There are many rumours out there, some are interesting, some are funny, all of them sound like a update Apple did not see for a long time and Microsoft never will get working ...
rEFIt eh? I've heard about never looked into it, thanks for bringing it up. :D

matthew24 said:
Technical speaking a patch is a correction on existing code, in this sense Tiger is finished/completed as an OS. Leopard should be called a new release with an enhanced future set.

Realise a few hundred people have been working for two years on this new release, and you call it a patch, may be your opinion, but it sounds ridiculous.

Leopard, will be a great update:
GUI independent interface, core-animations, bootcamp, ZFS filsystem, spaces, time-machine, Safari 3.0, Mail, iChat, Spotlight+ etc, etc, this is a major overhaul of the os. As an bonus we will again have a performance improvement. Compare this with Vista..
Out of curiousity, will the leopard install disc contain the entire os or just the upgrade?

kiang said:
luker said:
Sorry if I offended everyone when I expressed my opinion, if I state that it's my opinion will you not declare me a troll?

In my opinion whatever small fixes and upgrades it includes are worthy of a patch, and the "notable" upgrades and neat features it includes are admittedly a bit of a stretch to include in a patch, but maybe some sought of... $30 upgrade pack?[/inmyopinion]

I would stick with Tiger but soon enough software will require 10.5.x and I'll be forced to spend quite a large amount of money for a reason that hardly justifies the cost.[/inmyopinion]

I would "keep quiet" about it if this .. what do I call it aside from patch .. upgrade? if this upgrade didn't contain bootcamp. I might consider doing a full install of ubuntu on this macbook, though I have enjoyed the mac os and would like to leave it with its hardware.

I'm not trying to start a fire, I would just like to know why I should pay so much for what benefits me so little. Or advice on how to live without it. (ie. optional bootcamps if they exist; yes yes I am googling for it)
I clearly recognize a windows-user in you... why? because you seem to be used to major changes in every release. Well, Leopard has major changes, but not like the changes between eg xp and vista.
when you take a look at every non-windows system (solaris, linux, OSX) they are all following the 'release many, update often'-line of thinking, which means every few years, there is a major release, which has fixes every error of the previous version, and offers a bunch of new features. just look at ubuntu: every 6 months, there is a new version, and you have to download it, you can't upgrade you're previous OS toi the new version.
Windows on the other hand is always waiting like 4 to 5 years for a major release, and then they come up with a minor release (95(late 94) & 98(mid 97), 2000(early 2000) & XP(early 2002), Vista(2007) & Vienna/windows7(expected 2008-2009)). and in the time being between the major releases, the systems are constantly patched, so you end up with a completely f*cked up system(come on: 884 patches on my XP???). These patches slow down your system, and can't completely remove the problems, cause the problem is in the systems core. the patches merely get rid of the consequences of those problems.
Meanwhile, OSX is constantly adjusting itself from the core, and every 2-3 years, there is a major release, in which you get new major features (TM, spaces, hello?) and a slightly improved system architecture, which is different, but still very familiar to the previous one, while in winodws, you get a completely different system with every new release (Vista: no File, Edit, View anymore? XP: what was up with the start-menu? etcetc)
and last about the price: 150$ every 2-3 years is still less then 400$ every 5 years ;)
Sadly alot of distros have slowed down on the release many, release often principle they once followed. :(

When you bring up the price, you are correct, perhaps I'm just over annoyed because I got this mac little over a month ago. :(

gnasher729 said:
luker said:
G'day,

I'm a first time mac owner and the more I read about 10.5, the more I wonder why I should pay (as I understand it to be) $129 US dollars for this patch they call leopard?

I'm more inclined to install ubuntu on this.. but what does it mean for dual booting if I don't have the official bootcamp.. which conveniantly comes with leopard? -_-
On Slashdot, you would get modd'ed down immediately (-1, Flamebait).
k.

gnasher729 said:
luker said:
Sorry if I offended everyone when I expressed my opinion, if I state that it's my opinion will you not declare me a troll?
"The patch called Leopard" - that is not expressing your opinion, that is a deliberate insult.
True. I'm insulting the fact that it's more of a patch than a $129 upgrade in my eyes.

bartleby said:
gnasher729 said:
"The patch called Leopard" - that is not expressing your opinion, that is a deliberate insult.
Not an insult, just a very poorly informed opinion.
Also true. :p While the previous posts from a certain few who have been patient with me I have realised that it was a harsh and ill-informed judgement to call it a patch. But I'm still annoyed that I have to spend $129 US to upgrade this month old mac with an upgrade that minorly affects me personally, as much as the wait may be killing some others.
 
Also true. :p While the previous posts from a certain few who have been patient with me I have realised that it was a harsh and ill-informed judgement to call it a patch. But I'm still annoyed that I have to spend $129 US to upgrade this month old mac with an upgrade that minorly affects me personally, as much as the wait may be killing some others.

You don't have to upgrade at all.

I'm running Panther with no problems.
 
Don't you ever want to update software that requires (I don't know the panther number:confused: ) 10.x.x+?
 
I'm using 10.3.9

Everything I need to do I can do. Why would I need to upgrade if it all does the jobs I want?
 
Out of curiousity, will the leopard install disc contain the entire os or just the upgrade?
The entire OS.
But I'm still annoyed that I have to spend $129 US to upgrade this month old mac with an upgrade that minorly affects me personally, as much as the wait may be killing some others.

<shrug> as others have said if you don't want the extra features, don't upgrade :).
 
There is more to Leopard than you realize, and if you really like the Mac OS, and care enough about computers to post on this forum, I'd bet you will understand why you want a copy of Leopard sooner or later.

Let's look at why this is.

First, we have the new set of user-level features, which you have seen and just aren't sure they are worth the value. This includes Time Machine, Spaces, the new iChat, the new Mail, etc, as well as the improvements to Spotlight which in my opinion is quite nice.

Second, there are the new underlying technologies. There are a lot of minor ones that you don't know about, as well as some major ones you may or may not know about: the largest of these is the addition of the new ZFS file system. But the biggest underlying technology for most users is Core Animation, that has far more value than you realize, I assure you. This leads into the next point.

Third, Leopard will have a whole set of applications that require Leopard and will not run on older OSes, just like every previous version of OSX. Chances are, this will include most if not all apps that have been greatly improved by way of Core Animation, and rumor has it the list of apps restricted to Leopard will include the upcoming version of iLife, and probably some of the upcoming pro apps as well (and a handful of third party apps, too).

Fourth, Apple has publicly claimed that Leopard as we know it is not feature complete. I'd say chances are the features that Apple has not yet told us about will be the most compelling reason for most people to upgrade.
 
64 bit

"Mac OS X Leopard ups the power of 64-bit computing delivered in Tiger. Build and run a new generation of 64-bit applications that address massive amounts of memory. Leopard takes 64-bit computing to the next level, while maintaining full performance and compatibility for your existing 32-bit applications and drivers.

Enhanced 64-bit Support
Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now Cocoa and Carbon application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the rest of the system are all 64-bit. Leopard delivers 64-bit power to both Intel- and PowerPC-based Macs, so you don’t have to install separate applications for different machines. " --Taken from the @ mac spring board at the bottom of your dock.

For anyone that has a quad or 8-core this will total change your system performance, provided software codes for it.
 
I can't believe no one has specifically pointed this out. A while ago I found an interesting bit of info on Wikipedia about Mac OS X and Darwin.

Mac OS 10.0 = Darwin 1.3.1
Mac OS 10.1 = Darwin 1.4.1
Mac OS 10.1.5 = Darwin 5.5 (numbering change, skipped ahead to keep with the NEXTSTEP versioning)
Mac OS 10.2 = Darwin 6.0.1
Mac OS 10.2.8 = Darwin 6.8
Mac OS 10.3 = Darwin 7.0
Mac OS 10.3.9 = Darwin 7.9
Mac OS 10.4 = Darwin 8.0
Mac OS 10.4.7 :)apple:TV) = Darwin 8.8.2
Mac OS 10.4.9 = Darwin 8.9

Then look at the last few versions of Windows and you see a totally different thing

Windows 2000 = NT 5.0
Windows XP = NT 5.1
Windows Server 2003 = NT 5.2
Windows Home Server = NT 5.2
Windows Vista = NT 6.0

Mac OS X is about 6 years old and Darwin has changed major versions 3 times. Windows 2000 came out in 1999, and NT 5 is still coming out in their Home Server in Vista. As the base of Windows it lasted for 8 years.
 
I agree the OP had a "trollish" tinge to the post but clearly he's looking for more information. If we all believe in Leopard then we must be able to articulate what we like in it.

My interest in Leopard revolves around these features.

Threaded OpenGL 2.1- OS X has "never" had a UI that was totally fluid. Quartz has to push through a lot of data and while Tiger is the best OS yet it still isn't as "snappy" as I'd like. In Leopard we get a dedicated thread to the GPU for UI. Gone should be the lag that you sometimes get with UI elements. That's important to me because a responsive UI makes the computer feel faster.

Time Machine- The more I learn about this the more I learn this isn't a toy. It's a capable system of snapshots and I wouldn't be surprised to see future incarnations end up supporting replication over a WAN. This stuff costs $1000s for Enterprise software. Easy as pie rile restoration as well. I'll use it.

Core Animation- Apple's silent about what Core Animation will do for their UI design. Methinks their plan is to use CA for a new Finder. We'll see but color me interested.

iChat Theater- I'm not a big chatter but I love good computer control. I'll be using this feature.

Spotlight/Automator- Both tools will be used more now that Spotlight has more boolean search functions and Automator has variables and a "recording" feature. Scripting isn't for everyone but if I can reduce the tedium of computing I'll look into it.

Contact/Calendaring/Sync - My life now revolves around a Calendar. Tiger's iCal is basic. Leopard brings the ability for 3rd party apps to read/write to a Calendar Store and access AddressBook data even easier. This is a lifeblood for anyone like me that wants a systemwide Calendar and Contact db and keeping everything in Sync. Hallelujah.

Audio/Video stuff- Quicktime looks to be improved..encoding h.264 will be faster the alpha channel stuff is damn cool. Audio facilities should be improved. Images will have nice HUD for basic edits and Quicklook is nice for a quick preview of many types of files.

Leopard certainly is going to improve my computing experience. I'm looking forward to improving my use of iLife and iWork with the next versions. Hey I don't blame someone for not wanting to part with $129. For me I just plan to use more computer more than ever for managing my life and thus $130 is a pittance. Tiger has treated me well but Leopard has developers jazzed about many new things and that means cool apps for me.
 
It was a bit of an impulsive post when I stacked up what I knew about leopard, then found out how much it was.:(

Thanks to everyone who showed me why it's worth the money, however I stick by the fact that I'm disappointed that it's $129 1 month after I purchased this mac for a list of features and a performance upgrade that I personally don't feel is worth all of that money. My opinion would probably be different if I had of had this mac for longer, ya'know? (A "free upgrades for 6 months" would be a nice suprise:rolleyes: )

I'll live.;)
 
I think the confusion comes from the fact it's still called osx. as in 10. In other released software, the first number is tusually the major revision #. In osx, the second # is. so 10.5 is the 5th major revision. Like version 5 of the software program called osx. Apple is milking the OSX name for all its worth. In actuality, If you want to follow apples long line of OSs, 10.5 wll be Mac os 15.
 
Sorry if I offended everyone when I expressed my opinion, if I state that it's my opinion will you not declare me a troll?

In my opinion whatever small fixes and upgrades it includes are worthy of a patch, and the "notable" upgrades and neat features it includes are admittedly a bit of a stretch to include in a patch, but maybe some sought of... $30 upgrade pack?[/inmyopinion]

And you call a major overhaul, making the OS 64-bit instead of 32-bit, part of a small patch? Maybe you don't need more than 3-4 GB of memory, but I am looking forward to being able to use more than that, since I do very memory intensive work loading tons of samples into memory. And raising that limit is great for someone like me. Also, there is supposed to be a major speed increase in multitasking in Leopard, at least for Intel Macs. How much improvement we will see remains speculation though. Then there is spaces, BootCamp, Time Machine, better Spotlight and probably a long list of bigger and smaller new features. Hardly a patch. It seems to me like at least as big an update as Vista is compared to XP.
 
1 month after I purchased this mac

It isn't out yet. Won't be for probably a couple of months. Most likely June the earliest at WWDC. But it's been advertised as coming this Spring since last years WWDC, so it's not like it's a surprise. I'm sure between the time they announce and the time it's available, they will be offering the free upgrade, but since it hasn't been announced as being ready to sell yet, you bought what you bought and nothing more.

There will always be newer and better. Once you see it, if you like it, buy. If it's not worth the money to you, don't. Still don't see what the problem is. :confused:
 
Enhanced 64-bit Support
...
For anyone that has a quad or 8-core this will total change your system performance, provided software codes for it.

Not so! 64-bit isn't about increased performance at all. It's about access to more than 4GB of virtual memory, and all that entails.

In practice, performance may be improved by increased registers on Intel processors and a new and more efficient objective-c runtime for 64-bit processes, but the improvements will apply just as much to a single-core Mac as they do to an eight-core, and will not be huge.

Any improvements that there are will be side-effects of the move to 64-bit, there's nothing fundamentally faster about 64-bit processes.
 
you guys are pathetic. trolling? he is expressing his opinion on something and you people have to act like he slapped your mother. get over yourselves.
 
I think the confusion comes from the fact it's still called osx. as in 10. In other released software, the first number is tusually the major revision #. In osx, the second # is. so 10.5 is the 5th major revision. Like version 5 of the software program called osx. Apple is milking the OSX name for all its worth. In actuality, If you want to follow apples long line of OSs, 10.5 wll be Mac os 15.

Hooray for OSXV
 
just wait and get it on ebay...it will be cheaper and if you care that much about money download a torrent...they're free and fast

to all those that read this post...don't worry i'm paying the full price for my copy of leopard when it comes out. i'm just saying there are other options:rolleyes:
 
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