Lightning Headphones: Are They Better or Just an Inconvenience?

[drumcat]

Apple isn't going to remove the DAC from the iPhone. They will likely put a less expensive low cost version in there since the built-in speakers don't required the same quality as the headphone jack does.



So every pair of speakers capable of BT are Lo-Fi? THere's not one quality BT speaker out there with an analogue interface? Give me a break. And then there's Sonos. Not BT, but wireless, built-in amp, DAC and power supply. And hardly "Lo-Fi".



You do understand that Apple pays less than $18 for all of the user I/O chips, not just the DAC and amp. You're making a ignorant mountain out of a molehilll you don't even understand.

You're ignoring his point, even if he is using a hammer for surgery.

The DAC probably won't even change, making it all the more disappointing.
Most BT speakers that aren't headphones are mono, improving single channel quality. And if I'm not mistaken, BT Stereo is sent using 128, with "fill in" stereo encoding (edit: joint-side stereo... had to google since it hasn't been relevant for a decade.) - essentially reconstructing the channel separation on the fly. It's not true two-channel because then you'd be stuck with two discreet 64kbps for data, and even HE-AAC at 64 is noticeable. So "Lo-Fi" has a point; the signal underutilises the hardware, often by a lot. Of course you know this because using a patch cable vastly improves quality, and that's the point, no?
How much they pay... like I said, they'll probably maintain the same DAC for a lot of reasons.

 

[dk001]

Don't know how many "music players" you personally use, but I'm almost certain that your average person uses one...their phone. I mean just look around you and use anecdotal evidence...when was the last you saw someone outside of a music studio with headphones that weren't attached to a phone? Your personal use case notwithstanding, removing the 3.5mm jack won't effect the extreme majority of people. They will use the (alleged) Lightning headphones with their primary music player...their iPhones.

Worst case scenario, you can keep and use your legacy Earpods for all of your other music players.

Actually, the average is around 3. Personally I have 4.
Like many, I buy a midrange quality headphone set (>$50 - $200<).

 

[gnasher729]

Right -- Apple is so greedy, that despite losing market share and reporting their first losses in 13 years, ....

If I had one thousandth of Apple's losses in the last quarter, I'd be a multi-millionaire.

 

[Mac 128]

Apple's hubris might end up biting them in the butt here. This is only going to make money for Apple if people continue to buy future iPhones without the 3.5 mm headphone socket. Look at the number of comments this headphone jack issue regularly garners here on MacRumors. There are a LOT of people who are very unhappy at the prospect of losing that 3.5 mm audio socket. Apple would be making a mistake to assume we're all going to roll over and buy the iPhone 7 regardless.

I'm not really convinced that this forum's members represent any kind of real world sample. Most are tech enthusiasts and tend to err on the side of backward compatibility with pre-existing technologies. On any given debate there's about 50% for and 50% against.

Now take an actual sample from the real world:

http://www.macnn.com/articles/16/01...o.ask.apple.shoppers.what.they.thought.131986

Now, to the two-fold question that launched this process. Verbatim, we said that "rumor has it that Apple will eliminate the headphone jack in favor of wireless or Lightning-connector headphones. If true, will this have any effect on your day-to-day use?" The majority, 723 users, said that the removal of the headphone jack would have no effect, with 189 saying it would have a detrimental effect on usage of the devices. The remaining 88 users had no opinion.

Here's an interesting data point -- not all of the 189 who claimed that they would be negatively impacted thought that the removal would be a bad idea. Only 132 of the 189 thought that the removal would be bad for Apple and the phone. There's still no overwhelming majority in favor of the eradication of the headphone jack, though -- 412 of the full pool said that the removal was a good idea, leaving 466 with no opinion one way or another.

I'd take that survey over what I see on this site on any given topic. Either way, it's debatable that Apple would be making a mistake if it's customers really come down on the issue according to the macnn sample.

Where Apple would be making a mistake is arbitrarily removing a headphone jack they don't have to yet remove to make improvements to the iPhone, when their competition is not also in the same position, especially at this particular crossroads. Given that Intel is also pushing digital audio, I have to believe that all mobile phone companies are in the same boat, and it's only a matter of time before all flagship phones with identical features will be forced to leave the 3.5mm jack behind.

 

[teknikal90]

Right -- Apple is so greedy, that despite losing market share and reporting their first losses in 13 years, they're going to remove a universally adopted audio standard from their phones giving their competition a huge edge, when they don't have to? Better sell all of my stock now then.



What are you talking about? How do you think BlueTooth speakers reproduce any audio without a DAC and amp!? How do you think my AirPlay and BT Denon capable amp reproduce any audio without them? And how do you think home theater amps with digital optical inputs, which have been a staple for years, reproduce audio without a DAC? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Not even worth addressing your other points -- but, if a manufacturer cuts corners, they will lose business. Period.

he's talking about 'high-end'.
not your $500 Bluetooth receiver from Bestbuy

 

[dsmedic10]

Whatever Apple does I'm sure it will only improve audio quality. The iPhone made its bread and butter on high quality audio in a portable device. The biggest appeal was quality audio and the iTunes Store on your phone. It's highly unlikely they would mess with that in a negative way.

 

[doelcm82]

The Apple I know will sell an *additional* $19.99 adapter to allow simultaneous changing and listening. It will be inconvenient for customers but wildly profitable for Apple.

It may be inconvenient for a subset of customers, who need or want such an adapter.

It won't be inconvenient for me. The only place I simultaneously charge my iPhone and listen is in my car, and it has a USB input which comes from the Lightning port.

 

[Exhale]

Energy per bit transferred goes down (tho the wider channels in 802.11ac offset this some, listening in idle to an 80MHz channel isn't the world's most efficient thing...).

I'm sorry - but thats flat out wrong. Bandwidth efficiency vs. Power efficiency is the tradeoff in using narrow bandwidth vs wide bandwidth modulation. You use a high-bandwidth with low-density modulation scheme when you need high power efficiency - and low-bandwidth with high density modulation when you need high bandwidth efficiency.

Why the hell do you think conserving bandwidth is so important? Because of the severe diminishing returns on power efficiency when you're chasing bandwidth efficiency.

 

[mildmannered]

View attachment 630647
Most of us probably have one or more of these unopened in a desk drawer.

Yes, but only because I'm still using a pair from one of my earlier Apple devices and I keep the new ones unopened as spares.

When travelling for work. I would only need to take my Apple in ear buds, and they would be suitable for my iPhone, iPod and windows netbook. Not forgetting, you can plug your own headphones into directly into an aircraft entertainment system (rather than having to use the awful supplied ones). Having the minimal amount of clutter to lug around with you is important

 

[uid15]

Countdown to AudioPhool bollocks in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

 

[drumcat]

Whatever Apple does I'm sure it will only improve audio quality. The iPhone made its bread and butter on high quality audio in a portable device. The biggest appeal was quality audio and the iTunes Store on your phone. It's highly unlikely they would mess with that in a negative way.

False. If Apple moves to a mostly Bluetooth connection scheme, it will adversely affect audio quality, period.

If Apple removes the 3.5, it will require a connector to achieve the prior quality, or a new set of cans.

The reality is that unless they have rewritten the BT Spec so that it can pass 256kbps AAC stereo, it will be officially worse without a dongle. The quality of the encode you buy from the store will be technically superior than the protocol charged with getting it to your ears.

I'd like to say it's not the case, but that's what we're staring at right now. My money is on a Lightning DAC adapter in the box, and as an investor, that pisses me off.

 

[GoodWheaties]

View attachment 630647
Most of us probably have one or more of these unopened in a desk drawer.

The interim solution for Apple if they are convinced of the higher fidelity of lightning audio, is to keep the 3.5mm port, but package lightning earbuds with iPhone 7.

The problem with that solution is just as you said though. Most of them stay unused in a drawer. I don't know a single iPhone user who uses Apples EarPods. I haven't used the stock buds since the days of the iPod Classic. They never stay in my ears and that is usually the complaint I hear about them from other people.

 

[drumcat]

I also find it incredible how some here lament the "it just works" factor leaving. I hope you all have parents that call you weekly to help walk through audio Bluetooth connections.

 

[Mac 128]

he's talking about 'high-end'.
not your $500 Bluetooth receiver from Bestbuy

Oh I see. Now we're moving the goal posts.

For the record, the Denon BT receiver I'm referencing cost $3,000 and it didn't come from Best Buy. The iPhone is not the sort of 'high-end' device you're referencing either so, let's try to keep the perspective in this debate. There's a vast difference between consumer technology which is the iPhone and 'high-end' audiophile equipment like you're referencing. And there's significant room for quality improvement within the low-end of that spectrum without jumping to niche 'high-end' equipment.

Let's not forget, the original comment was that DACs were not built into most high end amps and speakers. While I don't disagree that most high end speakers are still analogue and don't yet have a lot of digital interfaces, there are plenty of wireless BT speaker systems priced over $1,000 that qualify for 'high-end' for most consumers. And even some of the most 'high end' audiophile amps have digital inputs and thus DACs -- but that's really a cheat, because in the audiophile world, the DAC will be an external unit, like every link in that rarified world's chain.

And that was my whole point -- for the audio purists, the DAC and Amp paired with their speakers are very important individual links in the chain. No they don't use "off-the-shelf" components adjusted to accommodate any speakers plugged into their system. Everything is customized. And the same principle can be effectively applied to lower end products like consumer grade headphones without skewing into audiophile prices.

 

[drumcat]

It may be inconvenient for a subset of customers, who need or want such an adapter.

It won't be inconvenient for me. The only place I simultaneously charge my iPhone and listen is in my car, and it has a USB input which comes from the Lightning port.

The volume buttons are inconvenient for me. I always use on-screen control runners. Let's ditch those buttons!

(PS, this was sarcasm)

 

[2010mini]

Come on, Iphone specific headphones I can't use with any other devices? At least have them USB C. As it is, I'll need a dongle to use my existing noise canceling headsets? I've got lots of places I plug my phone into a set of speakers. BT is nice for some situations, but no headphone jack is a deal breaker -- I've bought a 4S, 5, 5S, 6+ and 6S+ each year (contract free and max memory) and the same with each gen of the ipads, but I can use them all with different audio equipment. I'm sorry apple, but you're cutting off this functionality too soon. The 3.5mm audio interface has been in use for a long time and it's not going away any time soon, so dropping it will inconvenience a lot of people.

Even if Apple does create this. 3rd market will have adapters available before the iPhone ships

 

[jthesssin]

Can you find me a pair of bluetooth earbuds that sound better or just as good as corded ?

As someone who considers themselves an amateur audiophile, I was quite impressed with the Definitive Technology Symphony 1 headphones while using bluetooth. They have their own built in DAC when connected with a USB cable to the Macbook (tried them with flac files, ALMOST as good as my vinyl's), but the bluetooth sound quality was equally good. I noticed a little muddiness of the midrange while in bluetooth but otherwise highs were crystal clear, drum beats sounded like I was right there, and bass, while lacking a little in the 20-35Hz range, was still powerful without being boomy. I have used them in bluetooth and direct connect USB for movies (iTunes) and audio (MP3 and FLAC) on a Macbook Pro and MP3/Videos on an iPhone 6s Plus.

 

[teknikal90]

Oh I see. Now we're moving the goal posts.

For the record, the Denon BT receiver I'm referencing cost $3,000 and it didn't come from Best Buy. The iPhone is not the sort of 'high-end' device you're referencing either so, let's try to keep the perspective in this debate.

Exactly so why move the DAC out?

 

[drumcat]

As someone who considers themselves an amateur audiophile, I was quite impressed with the Definitive Technology Symphony 1 headphones while using bluetooth. They have their own built in DAC when connected with a USB cable to the Macbook (tried them with flac files, ALMOST as good as my vinyl's), but the bluetooth sound quality was equally good. I noticed a little muddiness of the midrange while in bluetooth but otherwise highs were crystal clear, drum beats sounded like I was right there, and bass, while lacking a little in the 20-35Hz range, was still powerful without being boomy. I have used them in bluetooth and direct connect USB for movies (iTunes) and audio (MP3 and FLAC) on a Macbook Pro and MP3/Videos on an iPhone 6s Plus.

And what you're likely hearing is the bandwidth limitation of Bluetooth. That's the point; it is effectively going to take that great sound, and data-compress it over BT. That means that you spent that money on equipment, and it will no longer function as well as it once would have.

For many of us who have quality headphones, not necessarily "audiophile" stuff - I go with my Se215s for iPhone - that's not a small thing. I've tried Bluetooth adapters, and they generally sound like a hissing bag of poop. Thus, the only reasonable way to move past that will be a LDAC cable. Having been an iPhoner for 9 years, it sucks that somehow this music-centric device now believes that the absolute industry standard, passively powered, very small plug that it is, now is obsolete. For what? I understand there are some cubic millimeters it will remove from the case components, but there is unlikely going to be anything added in that will substitute for that convenience and quality.

In an era where many are already saying "that's thin enough, guys", I think we've reached a point where change is being substituted for "innovation".

 

[Spontida]

Wireless Charging will be in the next iPhone, and headphones will plugin via lighting.

Watch Apple call the wireless charging revolutionary.

 

[drumcat]

Exactly so why move the DAC out?

And if you want a speaker, you can't anyhow.

 

[dukebound85]

Why don't we see what the actual product will before before poo-pooing the idea?

Why would you need to? It makes headphones only compatible with the iPhone and makes my existing headphones not compatible. No thanks

 

[doelcm82]

The volume buttons are inconvenient for me. I always use on-screen control runners. Let's ditch those buttons!

(PS, this was sarcasm)

Maybe Taptic 3D Touch simulated rocker switches on the 2017 iPhone. If it happens, you get credit for predicting/promoting it!

 

[falainber]

Oh I see. Now we're moving the goal posts.

For the record, the Denon BT receiver I'm referencing cost $3,000 and it didn't come from Best Buy. The iPhone is not the sort of 'high-end' device you're referencing either so, let's try to keep the perspective in this debate. There's a vast difference between consumer technology which is the iPhone and 'high-end' audiophile equipment like you're referencing. And there's significant room for quality improvement within the low-end of that spectrum without jumping to niche 'high-end' equipment.

Let's not forget, the original comment was that DACs were not built into most high end amps and speakers. While I don't disagree that most high end speakers are still analogue and don't yet have a lot of digital interfaces, there are plenty of wireless BT speaker systems priced over $1,000 that qualify for 'high-end' for most consumers. And even some of the most 'high end' audiophile amps have digital inputs and thus DACs -- but that's really a cheat, because in the audiophile world, the DAC will be an external unit, like every link in that rarified world's chain.

And that was my whole point -- for the audio purists, the DAC and Amp paired with their speakers are very important individual links in the chain. No they don't use "off-the-shelf" components adjusted to accommodate any speakers plugged into their system. Everything is customized. And the same principle can be effectively applied to lower end products like consumer grade headphones without skewing into audiophile prices.

This Denon receiver may be a high quality receiver (at this price I am sure it is) but it has nothing to do with the quality of BT connection. BT is added for convenience. It's just one of many sources.

As far as DACs are concerned, I think the important point that need to be made here is that even relatively cheap DAC chip in iPhone will provide pretty decent quality. Most headphones below $100 (and maybe higher) won't even be able to match this quality. So all the talk about external DACs and amplifiers is relevant only for really expensive head phones which represent very small fraction of the headphone market. So, I see a lot of sense to keep 3.5mm jack for cheap head phones that represent the bulk of the headphone market.

 

[drumcat]

Maybe Taptic 3D Touch simulated rocker switches on the 2017 iPhone. If it happens, you get credit for predicting/promoting it!

In reality, you really only need one button. Not sarcastic. I imagine a phone with one side button and all screen is all you need. 2020ish.