Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk?

[KnightWRX]

Sorry chaosbunny, you seem to have taken my tongue-in-cheek comment too seriously. My point was that, like it or not, software download is inevitably the way of the future.

The future ? Talk about last decade. Software as a download has been around in the open source world since... well... since the open source world has existed.

Software downloads are a thing of the past.

 

[radiogoober]

The future ? Talk about last decade. Software as a download has been around in the open source world since... well... since the open source world has existed.

Software downloads are a thing of the past.

LOL! If software downloads are "a thing of the past", what, pray tell, is the future?

 

[chaosbunny]

Sorry chaosbunny, you seem to have taken my tongue-in-cheek comment too seriously. My point was that, like it or not, software download is inevitably the way of the future.

Until recently I would have agreed with you about physical cash/physical money. However, having recently moved from a large house to a small flat, I now realise the staggering amount of storage space that these things need. And my belief in physical has been badly shaken!

Well, I agree that it's the way of the future, I just don't like it. I don't like everything I buy being tracked and profiled to be fed into big corporations databases. I recently took the time to read through iTunes licence agreement, and was shocked when I found a paragraph where it basically says Apple can give my information to other companies without my knowledge.

Then there is the obvious problem with download speed. Most of my "normal user" friends have an usb internet stick with 3-5 gb data caps where I live - which normally is just enough for mails, some surfing & youtube.

I have no problem if you don't agree with me, I'm also not saying there should be no digital distribution and only physical media, but I'm all for more choices! Why can't there be a download AND a disk? Some more choices certainly wouldn't hurt Apple.

And don't say this would be too complicated for users. Has society already become so dumbed down?

 

[sclawis300]

BY THE WAY:

For everyone crying that they have a crappy internet connection, Apple will let you download Lion at their stores or whatever:

http://gizmodo.com/5814419/download...t-apple-stores-if-your-connections-too-crappy

Didn't read the link, but I assume this requires bringing your computer to the store, not such a hassle if it is a mackbook, but what if it is not? So much for convenience. Now instead of going to the store to buy a disk, I have to lug my fragile computer in there with me?

 

[InuNacho]

Didn't read the link, but I assume this requires bringing your computer to the store, not such a hassle if it is a mackbook, but what if it is not? So much for convenience. Now instead of going to the store to buy a disk, I have to lug my fragile computer in there with me?

Or if you have a Pro you could lug it in, ask where to plug it in, ask what monitor to plug it into, and then from there start downloading it.
That'd be pretty cool walking in with a Pro asking where to get Lion from.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Who STILL isn't running Snow Leopard??

The majority of users ARE. And the majority of users will simply do an upgrade, not a clean install. That leaves . . . a minority of a minority.

So where's the problem?

This seems to be the fanboy answer to everything. We've all forked over the cash, even if Snow Leopard made our systems SLOWER and not much else of any practical use (pretty awful 'upgrade' IMO; I see nothing in it that made my life easier or my machine faster). So the other 48% of you are now in the minority. You can fork it over or better yet just go back to Windows if you don't like it. 🙄

So what's in Lion that's so great that anyone should even want to upgrade to it? They've screwed up Spaces. They've made the OS even slower than before. So what's new? The App Store is now required to do most things? Wow. That's a feature I really wanti. NOT. A launch pad to make me feel like I'm using a big iPad? Hooray! NOT.

The main reason to upgrade OSX lately is just to maintain compatibility with current software. Many developers don't want to bother to include support for older operating systems as it often means a lot more work to them for a small percentage of people that aren't fanboys and don't willy-nilly 'upgrade' (feels more like a downgrade lately) just because Steve told them to fork over more money.

For example, if you feel Leopard is "good enough" and don't want Snow Leopard OR Lion, you will quickly find that you no longer have updates to Quicktime. Safari and iTunes updates will soon disappear. Don't expect Flash or other programs to keep supporting Leopard either. But yet again, I ask what is so great in Snow Leopard or Lion that makes it even worthwhile to upgrade to either one? They are SLOWER than Leopard and Leopard was SLOWER than Tiger. But at least Leopard had some nice GUI changes (Spaces, for example). OpenCL has proven useless thus far. Grand Central hasn't shown any improvements on a dual-core (don't' know about 4 or more). And Apple is in no hurry to move up to OpenGL 4.x where games would at least have a decent chance of keeping up with Windows ones (other than Apple's horrid graphic drivers, which would still make them slower no matter what; Apple can't be bothered to update those...EVER).

Bull-****.

The average consumer (Apple's main market) is perfectly fine with what they're doing. They just keep buying more Apple gear and handing Apple record quarters. Like the next one will be.

The people who are pissed off all the time are the tech geeks and IT folk. I find that NO ONE else bitches and moans the way you guys do.

Congratulations. I now nominate you for the fanboy of the year award. 😛

 

[fehhkk]

Just that ? I remember installing Wing Commander II for over 2 hours and having to sit in front of the computer the whole time. Before Multi-tasking.

And I remember having to delete it every 2 days to make room on my then too little 40 MB hard drive.

90 minutes for an OS install sounds like easy stuff.

And let's face it, a lot of you guys are making a big thing out of nothing, who really does "clean" installs of OS X rather than just upgrading ? I upgraded Leopard to Snow Leopard, had 0 issues.

It's kind of a pain, that's all. Not that everyone scratch installs their machine every week or something.

However, if I had the 10.7 .dmg, just burn that to a DVD, reboot it, then after 30 minutes, your scratch install is done. No need to fumble with updates.

I managed to clean install 10.7 with a DP2 .dmg however.

 

[Manderby]

Email in 2013:



"Dear Steve, I heard Apple will not do any more Mac OS X and just focus on iOS. Why?"



"Hardly anyone bought it.

sent from my isomething"

 

[bit density]

Well thank you mr jobs , that's my move back to a PC sorted, I was waiting for lion to launch and then drop £2000 on a nice new iMac but I think I'll custom build a PC that I can clean re-install at will rather than have to install, patch then update

Bye bye OSX I'll be sorry to lose you 🙁 Hello performance and comparability

Wow that is the feature that makes the difference for you? I am pretty sure, the process of building your own PC and clean re-installing at will is WAY more difficult than this process. But I guess we each have our own rulers...

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

There are four groups of people on this forum:

1.) Cult of Apple folks who would stand in line to drink Steve Jobs' magical piss if they could.

ROTFLMAO. 😀 😀 😀

The only people that think this is even remotely acceptable are in group number one: Like LTD

You're hitting 400 today. 😉

Apple has become the evil machine from 1984. They are no longer even remotely close to being an organization that helps you break away from the collective world they're ten times worse than Microsoft could ever be.

Steve, unfortunately, IS the machine from 1984. He's a megalomaniac who has had some serious success over the years. This means he also has talent. But at some point all megalomaniacs lose touch with reality and start veering off in directions that are either bizarre or the world isn't ready for yet.

The idea of ditching physical media WILL one day make sense. When everyone has 10Giga-bit per second Internet connections you'll be able to download a 10GB OS in all of 8 seconds. Even Super-Blu-Ray type resolutions will be stored and played with ease over networks and mega-storage, etc. There will be no point in having physical media. You will probably have a basic browser/bootable OS in a chip type option that will let you boot back into the Net and repair/fix your computer with ease at that point if something goes wrong. You won't need a backup disc or a boot disc. It'll be in hardware and be standard operating procedure for any computer.

The problem in 2011 is that no such setup exists and some poor people are still using god-awful dial-up or some slow 1Mpbs broadband that just doesn't cut it for huge downloads and restores, etc. Steve's idea has some merit in the future, but he's too busy trying to cram it down our throats 20 years in advance to notice that future isn't quite here yet. If he had the common sense to include TODAY'S technologies (e.g. Blu-Ray for one) for NOW and offer tomorrow's as an OPTION (i.e. download it off the App store if you have the bandwidth or want to), then everything would be OK. But it's his megalomaniac personality that has decided he wants to do it FIRST and be the FIRST to rid himself of physical media, etc. Well hooray for Steve Jobs, but he's not listening to his customers.

This will work well for iOS devices, especially ones with 3G setups that will always have access to the Net almost anywhere, but it's a bit laborious for a huge desktop OS in 2011. I've got 10mbps so it wouldn't take that long to update to Lion here, but that doesn't mean I want to jump through hoops in case of a hard drive failure. Notice how Lion has a basic browser mode without even logging in. I'm guessing Steve will eventually realize he can put that in a re-writable flash memory chip and let that connect to the App store directly and restore without the primary OS even being needed to do it. THAT would fix the problem for new computers, but it means that older computers wouldn't have it and so until those models are DITCHED (Steve likes to do this anyway), physical media is still needed for older models without creating a "use SL discs and THEN update" kind of crap.

This release is going to have horrible market penetration and might just be Jobs' unfortunate last failure as CEO. The iCloud stuff and not being able to have your own cloud based capabilities through a Time Capsule like setup is another. iCloud is a great consumer gimmick it's dead on arrival for business users

Steve doesn't care about business and never has (except his own, of course). He's left that AND the gaming market to Windows. It's sad, really, because the Mac could have been great in those markets too, but a megalomania cannot allow others to have that much control and so Steve would rather limit what Apple does than give others enough power to handle those markets themselves. And THAT is Apple's greatest failing. But with Apple making money hand-over-foot lately NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE except us Mac fans that realize the Mac OSX proper market got the shaft when the iPhone started development. THAT is when OSX started getting slower instead of faster and development time increased (and now gets little tiny crappy updates that are little more than an excuse to dump hardware support). Steve is obsessed with iOS and he's left the Mac to essentially ROT.

 

[calcvita]

LOL! If software downloads are "a thing of the past", what, pray tell, is the future?

the future as it seems, are operating systems just like google's chrome os and everything will be in the cloud.

just like KnightWRX said, in the open source community this kind of software distribution was and still is the way of doing things. in fact, linux depends heavily on the internet, not only for os updates but for software installation as well. from who do you think apple "stole" that idea for a centralized distribution of software?
the mas is nothing more than a repository, but with far more limitations than the repos of the various linux distros.
one other thing that sets the mas apart from the linux distros is the fact, that for one linux distro there can be more than one repo and you can costumize your software channels.

the mas idea is great, but not in the way apple decided to utilize it. can anybody tell me why i have to be logged in with my itunes account to be able to download free software from the mas? this should be possible without having to be logged in, without having to provide a credit card number or the purchase of an itunes gift card (which by the way isn't available in my country as a payment method).
this only tells me that apple is more interested in a credit card number than to provide a better user experience.

just my 2 cents……

@MagnusVonMagnum

very nice post, i agree 100%

 

[Joe HS]

Try customizing your default OS X theme to something that looks individual.

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/35187/refinery has very specific dock appearance customisations, and http://mac.appstorm.net/how-to/graphics-how-to/an-introduction-to-changing-os-x-themes/ has hundreds of OSX themes readily available.

Try adding system sounds to system events.

Try turning off the Mac's startup "bong".

These can both be done easily through System Preferences.

 

[Slurpy2k8]

ROTFLMAO. 😀 😀 😀



You're hitting 400 today. 😉



Steve, unfortunately, IS the machine from 1984. He's a megalomaniac who has had some serious success over the years. This means he also has talent. But at some point all megalomaniacs lose touch with reality and start veering off in directions that are either bizarre or the world isn't ready for yet.

The idea of ditching physical media WILL one day make sense. When everyone has 10Giga-bit per second Internet connections you'll be able to download a 10GB OS in all of 8 seconds. Even Super-Blu-Ray type resolutions will be stored and played with ease over networks and mega-storage, etc. There will be no point in having physical media. You will probably have a basic browser/bootable OS in a chip type option that will let you boot back into the Net and repair/fix your computer with ease at that point if something goes wrong. You won't need a backup disc or a boot disc. It'll be in hardware and be standard operating procedure for any computer.

The problem in 2011 is that no such setup exists and some poor people are still using god-awful dial-up or some slow 1Mpbs broadband that just doesn't cut it for huge downloads and restores, etc. Steve's idea has some merit in the future, but he's too busy trying to cram it down our throats 20 years in advance to notice that future isn't quite here yet. If he had the common sense to include TODAY'S technologies (e.g. Blu-Ray for one) for NOW and offer tomorrow's as an OPTION (i.e. download it off the App store if you have the bandwidth or want to), then everything would be OK. But it's his megalomaniac personality that has decided he wants to do it FIRST and be the FIRST to rid himself of physical media, etc. Well hooray for Steve Jobs, but he's not listening to his customers.

This will work well for iOS devices, especially ones with 3G setups that will always have access to the Net almost anywhere, but it's a bit laborious for a huge desktop OS in 2011. I've got 10mbps so it wouldn't take that long to update to Lion here, but that doesn't mean I want to jump through hoops in case of a hard drive failure. Notice how Lion has a basic browser mode without even logging in. I'm guessing Steve will eventually realize he can put that in a re-writable flash memory chip and let that connect to the App store directly and restore without the primary OS even being needed to do it. THAT would fix the problem for new computers, but it means that older computers wouldn't have it and so until those models are DITCHED (Steve likes to do this anyway), physical media is still needed for older models without creating a "use SL discs and THEN update" kind of crap.



Steve doesn't care about business and never has (except his own, of course). He's left that AND the gaming market to Windows. It's sad, really, because the Mac could have been great in those markets too, but a megalomania cannot allow others to have that much control and so Steve would rather limit what Apple does than give others enough power to handle those markets themselves. And THAT is Apple's greatest failing. But with Apple making money hand-over-foot lately NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE except us Mac fans that realize the Mac OSX proper market got the shaft when the iPhone started development. THAT is when OSX started getting slower instead of faster and development time increased (and now gets little tiny crappy updates that are little more than an excuse to dump hardware support). Steve is obsessed with iOS and he's left the Mac to essentially ROT.

You know what's pathetic? That you've called anyone with a rational response a 'fanboy', yet type up these foaming-at-the-mouth responses, containing so much subjective, sensational vitriol and vile hatred. The only fanboys here are people like you, expressing this extreme outrage over something that in reality won't be a big deal, and inventing **** to try to justify whatever delllusions you might have. Dial-up? Really? You want Apple to cater to people who use DIAL-UP? Have you noticed that not a single computer product/device from Apple, or any other company for that matter, has had a dial-up port for the past 10 years or so? Yet you're suggesting that this almost non-existent population of users should now influence Apple's strategy and decisions? You're not a 'mac fan'- you're an angry person that, and if it were up to you and your mentality, Apple would be underground by now. You're absolutely insane. Please, just switch to Linux like you promised, and leave the rest of us sane, rational people alone.

The people that would 'drink Steve's magical piss', and 'fanboys' are the normal consumers now responsible for most of Apple's sales. And yes, they'll be ok with this, believe it or not. You know, the ones that don't live on message boards? If you went out, got some fresh air, and cleared your head you'd realize that. Who are you to say 'Steve isn't listening to his customers'? You actually think you speak for most of them? Trust me- you clearly don't. Maybe you and your dial-up friends can organize an Apple boycott, I'm sure they'll listen to you then.

 

[Rapscallion]

Wow some of you people are really angry about this!

I would like to have a physical copy of the OS, that way I don’t have to rely on an internet connection to install it; this would be pretty simple and easy for me to install when required.
But that is a choice I would like, it doesn’t mean that it’s not the right option for you, just one that fits my particular way of doing things.

 

[radiogoober]

LOL AT DIALUP!

How can anyone think that Apple should cripple technology to worry about dial up people? I haven't heard the words Dial Up in so many years. I didn't think it even existed anymore 🙂

 

[Discoverer]

LOL AT DIALUP!

How can anyone think that Apple should cripple technology to worry about dial up people? I haven't heard the words Dial Up in so many years. I didn't think it even existed anymore 🙂

You'd be surprised to know that there are many places in United States that still do not have broadband options.

 

[InuNacho]

LOL AT DIALUP!

How can anyone think that Apple should cripple technology to worry about dial up people? I haven't heard the words Dial Up in so many years. I didn't think it even existed anymore 🙂

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10454133-94.html

BTW many people in other countries still have dialup or receive dialup speed internet over the air.

 

[robeddie]

You'd be surprised to know that there are many places in United States that still do not have broadband options.

There are two sides here. Both yelling at each other:

1) Those who want OPTIONS (DVD or USB drive install for the OS)

2) Those who are just fine with the download-only model.


I can understand why someone who wants the options to be pissed that it's being taken away.

What I don't understand is why people who are fine with the download-only model are pissed at the folks who want options.

****Why on earth would you be mad at others, who are upset about losing an option that until now, always existed, and that we find useful (for WHATEVER reason)?

 

[Gradivus]

Too bad it won't be available as a straight .ISO file either and that we'll have to "hack" and "workaround" to get it to work in some of our workflows. If only Apple had done like the Linux vendors of old do... I remember the 90s, when I could download an OS and it came with an app to create bootable media.

2011 and Apple still can't get OS downloads right. "It just works" went out the Window long ago.

"Apple sold 3.76 million Macs during the quarter" - quote from a press release dated April 20, 2011.

Now, find a chair in a nice quiet corner, sit down and think hard. How many of those 3.76 million Mac customers do you think know or care about words such as ".ISO files", "hack" and "workaround"? I don't know, but I'd guess it's about three, leaving 3,759,997 customers blissfully happy to click on a button in the Store to get their computer updated!

None of my friends know these words. But I do, I've worked in the IT industry since the 1970s. But I don't expect to hear them when I get home. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. I expect to switch my computer on and just use it. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. I expect software updates and upgrades to take place with a single click and minimal effort from me. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. Ideally, my Mac would be like my TV - download and install upgrades in the middle of the night while it is on standby and I'm fast asleep in my bed.

I'd say Apple has now got its OS downloads absolutely spot on for all of its tens of millions of customers. The only exceptions will be a few dozen anoraks, most of whom will have identified themselves on this forum.

These posts remind me of that old joke about a marching band. "Oh look," says a proud mother, "they're all out of step except my little Johnny!"

You too, are out of step, my friend. The Mac platform is NOT for you. The sooner you realise this and move to, say, Linux the happier you will be.

 

[InuNacho]

What I don't understand is why people who are fine with the download-only model are pissed at the folks who want options.

Something about Steve Job's magical piss.

 

[robeddie]

"Apple sold 3.76 million Macs during the quarter" - quote from a press release dated April 20, 2011.

Now, find a chair in a nice quiet corner, sit down and think hard. How many of those 3.76 million Mac customers do you think know or care about words such as ".ISO files", "hack" and "workaround"? I don't know, but I'd guess it's about three, leaving 3,759,997 customers blissfully happy to click on a button in the Store to get their computer updated!

None of my friends know these words. But I do, I've worked in the IT industry since the 1970s. But I don't expect to hear them when I get home. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. I expect to switch my computer on and just use it. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. I expect software updates and upgrades to take place with a single click and minimal effort from me. That's why I use a Mac, not Windows. Ideally, my Mac would be like my TV - download and install upgrades in the middle of the night while it is on standby and I'm fast asleep in my bed.

I'd say Apple has now got its OS downloads absolutely spot on for all of its tens of millions of customers. The only exceptions will be a few dozen anoraks, most of whom will have identified themselves on this forum.

These posts remind me of that old joke about a marching band. "Oh look," says a proud mother, "they're all out of step except my little Johnny!"

You too, are out of step, my friend. The Mac platform is NOT for you. The sooner you realise this and move to, say, Linux the happier you will be.

Dammit man, no one is upset that you now have the OPTION to download the new software directly. That's great.

But Apple has taken away any OTHER option. That's the problem. Since when is wanting an OPTION out of step with being a Mac user?!?!?

 

[firewood]

LOL! If software downloads are "a thing of the past", what, pray tell, is the future?

Software downloads for mom-and-pop consumers that lots of developers can easily monetize.

"| tar xvfz -; configure; make; sudo make install" missed that goal by several light-years.

 

[Gradivus]

The world moves on

What I don't understand is why people who are fine with the download-only model are pissed at the folks who want options.

An excellent point.

The world moves on. The world might sympathise and drag its feet to accommodate those that don't want to move on. But the world moving on is an unstoppable force; and move on it will despite all protests.

The world has always been like this.

Remember the Luddites? Remember gas lighting? And candlelight? The floppy disc? Cathode ray tube TVs and monitors? Muzzle loading weapons? Cutlasses? Suits of armour? Horse drawn transport? Jousting? Apartheid? The Flat Earth society? Starting handles on cars?

The world moves on. Some people resist, most go with the flow. And some lead. Apple has a history of leading.

 

[KingYaba]

No offline solution is killer. Apple dun goofed with this one. They should do USB or Firewire flash drives with 10.7 on there.

 

[iBug2]

Steve doesn't care about business and never has (except his own, of course). He's left that AND the gaming market to Windows. It's sad, really, because the Mac could have been great in those markets too, but a megalomania cannot allow others to have that much control and so Steve would rather limit what Apple does than give others enough power to handle those markets themselves.

I've never understood this weird idea people have that Apple somehow "left" the gaming market to PC.

Apple never had any chance at the gaming market because Apple hardware costed more than twice as much as PC hardware back then. (Much more than today). Nobody would buy a mac to play games.