Why? Because these people who want options are going out of their way calling everyone who is ok with this decision names, accusing them of being fanboys, 'drinking Steve's urine', etc etc, and at the same time sensationally calling for the resignation of Steve jobs, pounding their chests proclaiming they're abandoning apple, and all manner of extreme, faux outrage and ********. THAT is what is irritating, not the fact they'd rather have options. There's a way to say you disagree with something in a level-headed way, without dwelving into insanity and sensationalism- have some damn perspective, instead of proclaiming that Apple is now useless and should essentially liquidate itself because of this small decision you may not agree with, you're switching to linux/windows/whatever. And thats pretty much what most people are doing. It stinks of childish entitlement and imputence.
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Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk?
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Why? Because these people who want options are going out of their way calling everyone who is ok with this decision names, accusing them of being fanboys, 'drinking Steve's urine', etc etc, and at the same time sensationally calling for the resignation of Steve jobs, pounding their chests proclaiming they're abandoning apple, and all manner of extreme, faux outrage and ********. THAT is what is irritating, not the fact they'd rather have options. There's a way to say you disagree with something in a level-headed way, without dwelving into insanity and sensationalism- have some damn perspective, instead of proclaiming that Apple is now useless and should essentially liquidate itself because of this small decision you may not agree with, you're switching to linux/windows/whatever. And thats pretty much what most people are doing. It stinks of childish entitlement and imputence.
But hard drives and SSD's still are in all the Macs they sell. And as long as the computers they sell require a hard drive to run, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an easy way to re-load the os on that hard drive, in the event I replace it, either from failure or upgrading it.
I have 5 macs in the house, and due to the need for space and rapid decrease in hard drive prices, for the past couple of years, I've put a new, bigger hard drive in every one of those macs.
I have also done a clean install on the macs that I've sold. (about 3 in the past 3 years).
Having an OS install disk that allowed me to boot the computer and restore it. It's a simple and easy tool.
The next generation of macs that are Lion-only (and don't even boot SL) then possibly won't come with that valuable tool that came in very handy to me.
It's not about 'moving forward' and all this philosophical crap you're talking about. It's about having an important tool that's USEFUL RIGHT NOW, with the macs that we have RIGHT NOW.
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Mine doesn't correct it. I'm running 4.3.3. It just puts the dashed red line beneath the misspelled word. When I tap on it, I get a choice of either "Leopard" or "Leopardi".
Actually, in further testing, I got it to autocorrect to "Leopard" once, when "Leopaard" was the first thing I typed. I'm testing in the Messages app. But when I type "Snow Leopaard" it doesn't pop up the autocorrect bubble.
So I don't think the misspelling by itself disproves the authenticity of the email. Of course, I'm a day late, so nobody will read this as usual...
Cost
OK, Robeddie, if you want practicalities, I'll do my best. I really don't KNOW why Apple has removed the option, but I'll give you my view based on my decades in the IT business.
It's cost.
1) Having the option of download or DVD will mean two different variants of the installer. True, they won't be vastly different but they will be different. Developing two different variants WILL incur a cost on Apple.
And accommodating the two variants will probably have a knock-on affect on future updates and upgrades. Again incurring a cost.
Believe me, variants are not popular in the industry. Where I worked, (business to business) customers accepted our distribution methods or had very long conversations with the Sales Dept!
2) Physical distribution of physical discs incurs a cost. Transport, stock control, warehousing, shop shelf space (lost opportunity to sell other products), theft, fraud, forgery, damage, re-stocking, returns, complaints, staff training (customers WILL ask questions and expect the sales staff to be able to answer them), hassles with export and import... Plus the costs of the discs, the costs of writing them, the box and packaging.
3) Anti-piracy measures. Apple has always put convenience ahead of anti-piracy measures, but the app-store neatly sidesteps the problem by linking a download to an Apple ID. I have no doubt whatsoever that Apple will beef up this feature considerably in years to come keeping the system very simple for the end user - until they try to rip-off Apple. So, yet again, we're talking about costs.
Now, none of these costs is significant in its own right. But they do add up. And with some there is a potential 'hostage to fortune' for the future. Obviously, the answer is to charge more for the DVD version. But how much more? Can you imagine the explosion on MacRumors if, say, Apple were to charge an extra $50 for the DVD over the download? Conversely, a physical DVD would get shoes on the floor in the Apple Stores and impulse buys could offset the cost of DVDs. But I doubt the numbers would add up.
And that's the bottom line. I doubt that the number of people who want the option of a DVD is enough to make it a financially viable option. Apple, of course, will be infinitely better than me at predicting all this, and I'm certain clever people at Apple will have done the predictions, the costs, the number crunching, etc.
Apple will have reached the best compromise between customer convenience, long term customer loyalty and profit. Remember, the ONLY function of ANY business is to make profit. Apple does NOT make computers, it makes MONEY.
And if you believe anything else, you're phenomenally naive.
OK, Robeddie, if you want practicalities, I'll do my best. I really don't KNOW why Apple has removed the option, but I'll give you my view based on my decades in the IT business.
It's cost.
1) Having the option of download or DVD will mean two different variants of the installer. True, they won't be vastly different but they will be different. Developing two different variants WILL incur a cost on Apple.
And accommodating the two variants will probably have a knock-on affect on future updates and upgrades. Again incurring a cost.
Believe me, variants are not popular in the industry. Where I worked, (business to business) customers accepted our distribution methods or had very long conversations with the Sales Dept!
2) Physical distribution of physical discs incurs a cost. Transport, stock control, warehousing, shop shelf space (lost opportunity to sell other products), theft, fraud, forgery, damage, re-stocking, returns, complaints, staff training (customers WILL ask questions and expect the sales staff to be able to answer them), hassles with export and import... Plus the costs of the discs, the costs of writing them, the box and packaging.
3) Anti-piracy measures. Apple has always put convenience ahead of anti-piracy measures, but the app-store neatly sidesteps the problem by linking a download to an Apple ID. I have no doubt whatsoever that Apple will beef up this feature considerably in years to come keeping the system very simple for the end user - until they try to rip-off Apple. So, yet again, we're talking about costs.
Now, none of these costs is significant in its own right. But they do add up. And with some there is a potential 'hostage to fortune' for the future. Obviously, the answer is to charge more for the DVD version. But how much more? Can you imagine the explosion on MacRumors if, say, Apple were to charge an extra $50 for the DVD over the download? Conversely, a physical DVD would get shoes on the floor in the Apple Stores and impulse buys could offset the cost of DVDs. But I doubt the numbers would add up.
And that's the bottom line. I doubt that the number of people who want the option of a DVD is enough to make it a financially viable option. Apple, of course, will be infinitely better than me at predicting all this, and I'm certain clever people at Apple will have done the predictions, the costs, the number crunching, etc.
Apple will have reached the best compromise between customer convenience, long term customer loyalty and profit. Remember, the ONLY function of ANY business is to make profit. Apple does NOT make computers, it makes MONEY.
And if you believe anything else, you're phenomenally naive.
Robeddie,
Our conversation seems to have got out of sync.
In reality I agree with almost all you say, I too replace HDDs, etc. But we must recognise that, in doing so, we're in a very small minority and out of step with the millions of regular users.
Presumably, you can buy and download another copy from the App-Store? It's scheduled to be priced at 21 GBP here in the UK, which is a ludicrously cheap price. It costs me over three times that to fill my car with petrol (gas) for goodness sake. It's cheaper than a decent restaurant meal for one! I'd feel a bit miffed at repurchasing it, but it would be the principle not the cost!
A fair response. Hard to swallow that the biggest tech and most profitable tech company in the world is removing what I think is an important tool, just to make another few million on top of their 100 billion, but I guess that's the fact.
On the flip side, it's been said before that Apple is a 'hardware' company. What was meant by that is that they made their big cash with the hardware, and the software they provide is, as much as anything, an incentive for buyers to get the Apple 'hardware'. The OS was never meant to be a big money maker in an of itself, rather it has been the incentive for me (and millions others) to buy the only hardware that can run it ... Apple's.
I have loved Apple hardware, and spent a heck of a lot of money on it over the years (5 newish macs in the house right now - as I said). Having a portable, easy to install OS has been one of the BIG reason I have always loved Apple over Windows based systems.
So, in order to make a little more money then, what you're saying is that the most profitable tech company in history is now taking a tool away from me that was one of the big reasons I bought all their stuff in the first place.
It's just damn frustrating. That's all I can say about that.
The concern trolls are still here I see. LOL
What a joke. This is a non-issue.
The greatest consumption of time in a reinstall of an OS on a hard drive is the recovery with a Time Capsule. The installer takes no time at all. The fact that you install SL then Lion makes this no less true. And installing lion is like having one extra OS update instead of them all in one combined updater.
The only people with a reasonable gripe are the ones who don't own SL. Go buy it from the Apple Store for $29 and you are all set.
Or take a stand and go run Windows. Your Mac can do this already. Go buy Windows 7 or 8 when it comes out. You will pay more than you will to get SL + Lion. But sometimes you need to take a stand. Or you can do what many Windows users do: get a pirated copy. But be careful of the viruses if you do.
And as for people managing large numbers of work stations, nothing has been said to suggest Apple will not have something available for institutions that the regular user doesn't need. Perhaps Lion Server will offer something to help? But then of course the concern troll just sees an opportunity to pile on. No need to wait on official statements.
What a joke. This is a non-issue.
The greatest consumption of time in a reinstall of an OS on a hard drive is the recovery with a Time Capsule. The installer takes no time at all. The fact that you install SL then Lion makes this no less true. And installing lion is like having one extra OS update instead of them all in one combined updater.
The only people with a reasonable gripe are the ones who don't own SL. Go buy it from the Apple Store for $29 and you are all set.
Or take a stand and go run Windows. Your Mac can do this already. Go buy Windows 7 or 8 when it comes out. You will pay more than you will to get SL + Lion. But sometimes you need to take a stand. Or you can do what many Windows users do: get a pirated copy. But be careful of the viruses if you do.
And as for people managing large numbers of work stations, nothing has been said to suggest Apple will not have something available for institutions that the regular user doesn't need. Perhaps Lion Server will offer something to help? But then of course the concern troll just sees an opportunity to pile on. No need to wait on official statements.
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I ... along with others here on my side would agree that if the FINAL version has that capability, that would be good. But that's not what these (potentially fake) responses by Jobs seem to be saying.
But again, the whole Apple ID thing stills puzzles me. When I then install Lion from this Disk I've created using the DMG, exactly when and how would the OS 'require' me to put in my apple ID, so that it knows that it's being used 'legally'?
Seconly, let's say I want to wipe my drive and just have a clean OS for when I"m selling a mac with Lion on it... then what happens when I 'deauthorize' the computer? Does Lion fail to work?
After all, when I download any other app from the mac store and try to run it on a computer that is not 'authorized' by me, it refuses to run.
If someone could explain how this would work, that would be interesting.
If you have an answer for the question I stated above... please speak up, rather than just label me a 'concern' troll, and walk away snickering like a little grade school kid.
Your insults are just more of the same to be expected from a concern troll.
Go buy a snow leopard disk if you haven't already.
First time your Macs HDD fails, it will cease to be a non-issue, unless you LIKE paying an apple store care troll to fit a massively overpriced disk and re-instal the OS for you.
The ONLY reason i can see there being no physical media version is to drive sales of a MAC repair / upgrade service in apple stores, Couple the fact you physically wont own media to install the OS with the fact apple are trying harder and harder to make the drives proprietary (like the iMac drives) and all it point to is apple wanting to more and more enforce its "3 years and buy a new mac" business model thats made it so much money over the years.
What apple seems to have failed to notice is that its core customers are no longer just the die hard mac fanatics, the iPhone brought main stream consumers into the fold, and those people will buy a new PC once every 7-10 years , as low as every 5 years if your really lucky, so they are trying to take away any chance of the end user being able to restore or update an apple product in anyway.
Forced obsolescence, gotta love it.
or maybe im just cynical
A complete distortion from the truth.
You replace the hard drive.
Install SL
Restore from time machine - rate limiting step
Update it.
Download Lion from the App store and install.
Done
This is a non issue.
The only people complaining are those who seem to think a $29 SL disk is asking too much.
And all this about having to install SL first is based on an iffy email to begin with. But if true it is no big deal. And even if it begins this way, there is nothing to say that as time passes, the entire process won't evolve. I'm guessing that each computer will come with a restore disk as they always have. Perhaps SL will always be the first install and Lion will be downloaded but always at its latest version. Something tells me that after several years have passed though that this process would evolve beyond SL being involved.
Good. A bit of an answer. Plus another insult by you. (you did start it you know).
So back to your answer. Fine. SL works with the macs I have now. But what about the future Macbook Air I intend to buy two months from now. That model will come with Lion installed, and presumably ONLY BOOT WITH LION.
Then, what sha'll I do, oh wise one ... when I want to do a clean install to SELL that MBA one or two years later, and don't want my apple id embedded in the OS?
First of all, you need to read the definition of fanboy because I'm sure as hell not one (you, however might be given your hate-filled response over some of us wanting a physical media OPTION).
Secondly, I don't have dial-up (I've got 10mbps and can get 50mbps for more money), but that doesn't mean I live in world where I think everyone else has broadband just because I've had for 15 years. Someone posted a nice link to an article that says 40% still do not have access to broadband. You should be thankful you're NOT in that 40% because I have a friend that was up until last year and it was a freaking NIGHTMARE to do software updates online (especially for Windows which has them constantly). They're slow even at 1mbps speeds (just awful really).
I simply don't think forcing people to download 4GB files over the Net is the best answer for EVERYONE right now. There is no reason what-so-ever for Apple to REQUIRE a download of Lion. They could make it the default method but provide the OPTION of a DVD purchase for those that need or want it, even if it's a little more money. It's ASININE to go online only (with a previous OS version needed to even install it, showing that physical media is still NEEDED). And for pointing that out, we get people like yourself with these vitriol replies telling everyone who doesn't believe as you do how stupid they are.
And yet you wonder why some of us don't like fanatics. Fanatics always base their replies and opinions on their own needs or desires or emotions and couldn't care less about the rest of the community. Me Me Me! Me Too!
Any other company? Apple sold a dial-up modem up until 2009 dude!
I guess you missed the 40% post about non-broadband users. And like I said, even broadband can be slow as hell at lower rates with modern GB sized files.
Thanks for telling me what I am (being 'insane' and all, LOL). I know what you are. You're a selfish fanatic with delusions of knowledge of what's best for everyone.
Sadly, you're probably right. Let's all ride the magic bus to Steve's house to drink magical piss.
Yet people who buy Macs don't want to play games? Funny, but many BUY Windows to do just that (because even the games that ARE available for the Mac run like crap because of old OpenGL and even older video card drivers, which are the fault of Apple and no one else). And games are made for a platform based on users that might play them. During the first half of the past decade, Macs had very few users (and even fewer running OSX when the games were made for OS9).
Now Macs have enough users for some gaming support, but they run like crap due to slow GPUs, old drivers and old OpenGL versions (i.e. bad/slow APIs). Running the Windows version on the same hardware typically results in 2-3x faster frame rates and that's SAD because it's mostly Apple's fault. They claim to have the "most advanced OS in the world" (or did at least), but it lags in several key areas behind Windows and has a giant hole in the desktop lineup (i.e. a consumer tower at consumer prices).
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Stick the restore disk the computer comes with in the external drive. And before you say an external drive is an added cost, it already is for Air owners. It is a choice. Get the Air and reduce the size be removing the drive but sometimes you need the external.
The other option is to always clone your drive. Get SuperDuper. It works great.
As for the OS being linked to your id, well I appreciate the privacy argument. I imagine eventually there will be methods to get around this. But until then it is a choice you have to make. Personally I am more comfortable with Apple than many other entities with my information. But if privacy laws were introduced that forced Apple to change it then I would support the legislation.
Therin lies the big question mark here.
You are assuming that new Lion-only Macs will come with restore disk that can be imaged, and create from that image, an OS that does NOT have my apple ID embedded in it..
I would stop being a 'concern-troll' right away if I were certain that was true.
P.S.
Now isn't this better? instead of you just flipping me off as a complainer, you're actually trying to answer my questions. I really do feel like our relationship is moving in the right direction ... LOL.
The catch I see is that if then I want to 'deauthorize' the computer when I sell it, will it not also 'deauthorize' the OS (since the OS is now essential just another app from the app store).
That would then turn the 'deauthorized' computer I'm trying to sell into a brick.
NOTE: And I would want to deauthorize it, since I can only authorize 5 total computers with Apple, and I'm already hitting that limit.
sure. how can icloud services keep your devices in sync if they dont know what (free) apps youve downloaded? your AppleID is the primary key. also for future upgrades to your known-apps.
but if you really dont want to log in w/ an AppleID, you are free to download free stuff from anywhere on the web.
It's not even as simple as popping in a SL disc, installing, and then installing Lion. The version of Snow Leopard on the disc is version 10.6.0. So immediately after installing SL on a new HDD, I would immediately have to update the OS to version 10.6.6 in order to get access to the Mac App Store to re-download Lion.
For a company that makes it impossible to downgrade to a previous version of iOS, I find it strange that in order to install Lion you first need to revert back to a legacy OS.
For a company that makes it impossible to downgrade to a previous version of iOS, I find it strange that in order to install Lion you first need to revert back to a legacy OS.
YOU jumped to the conclusion I was referring to you specifically when I made that comment.
This thread is full of concern trolls making an issue out of nothing. The usual suspects.
And you are assuming new macs will not come with restore disks.
The install of SL plus updaters takes under 1 hour. You will spend more time restoring files from time machine backups than that.
Just how often do you intend to do this?
Generally when I replace a hard drive I assume it will be a day long process. Luckily it isn't very often.
I think all these concerns are jumping the gun based on a cryptic email that may not even be from SJ.
It would be a corporate suicide if Apple left no options available so I really do not see this being an issue.
People may say Apple decides to do things that don't make sense like not offering Blu-ray support. While you and I may want Blu-ray, Apple's decision is based on marketing studies and cost analysis. So while I wish BR were available, I can see Apple's decision making is based on reasoning that helps the company. This is different. If Apple were to give no options for users in such a situation then the backlash would catch up to them and be far greater than the BR example. Finally, not offering people the ability to de-authorize their OS would be a security issue. Apple has a selling point over Windows in the security argument. Make it difficult for people to de-authorize and some people will ignore it and private data will be stolen. You can argue the individual should know better but people will complain that Apple created a difficult situation.
So I absolutely find it a non-issue.
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As for those who say the difference is minimal between upgrading a clean installed system and clean installing a new system I will say this.
I tested Leopard on my computer cleanly installed. Then Snow Leopard upgraded from the Leopard cleanly installed (no app installed). Finally, I cleanly installed Snow Leopard. Performance-wise, Leopard performed pretty good, Snow Leopard clean not as good, and Snow Leopard upgraded was the worst.
Leopard: not freezes in daily use for some time.
Snow Leopard Clean: Occasional beach balls, takes time to do stuff (like opening Macintosh HD).
Snow Leopard Upgraded: Worse
AnonMac50
I tested Leopard on my computer cleanly installed. Then Snow Leopard upgraded from the Leopard cleanly installed (no app installed). Finally, I cleanly installed Snow Leopard. Performance-wise, Leopard performed pretty good, Snow Leopard clean not as good, and Snow Leopard upgraded was the worst.
Leopard: not freezes in daily use for some time.
Snow Leopard Clean: Occasional beach balls, takes time to do stuff (like opening Macintosh HD).
Snow Leopard Upgraded: Worse
AnonMac50
