Logic Pro X Gets Refresh for Upcoming Mac Pro

[Peperino]

At this point you’re disagreeing with facts in order to make your anger feel MORE justified. You don’t need more justification for your anger, just feel it! Trying to pull others into your frustration and disappointment, especially when most DON’T feel frustration and disappointment is just going to make you feel more frustrated and angry. At anonymous Internet people.

Sorry but the only one neglecting the facts its you...I am just pointing them. I like how you speak for most of the people...when actually most of the people that actually own the old Mac Pros for 2.5-3.5k will not think about spending 8-10k for a new Mac Pro. Especially about the pathetic 1k stand.

 

[Kevbasscat]

And people that are PRO and do NOT work in studios are....? Pros as well.

And FYI, many Pro that actually earn their money are NOT willing to spend stu-pid money on something that they actually DO not need. Again, the new Mac PRO is an overkill for many Pro users since is more intended to replace servers, Not the old Mac Pro.

Apple wouldn't try to fill the server gap today, as it would be suicide. You obviously haven't seen what ARM can do and how much in energy savings they create, and that's the biggest single drain in any server company. Oh, and look! There is a distinct lack of any ARM architecture in the MacPro. Stop talking about things you're ignorant about. Intel or even AMD's architecture uses 30% more energy. It's a no brainer. GEt ready for that shift.

 

[Sedulous]

I guess the question to ask is what’s the Mean Time To Failure? I may google this later, just wondering. My assumption is that a failure of a system part is the same soldered or not. A capacitor that’s going to fail will fail either way. Meaning that a socketed solution has more points of failure than a soldered solution (since you could have a perfectly working part that for some reason has issues with the socket).

Riiiight, a socket is more likely to fail than a single byte in a RAM module? I am glad you brought this up because yeah, I have had two MacBooks repaired for faulty RAM ($800 each). The entire logic board and all the RAM, SSD, WiFi/BT module were replaced with it. This should have been as simple as going down to Best Buy and dropping $70 for a new module.

I honestly do not comprehend your insistence that there should be no issue with Apple’s hardware design philosophy. Perhaps some posts here are made by people that feel “slighted by Apple”. However, my dissatisfaction with Apple is the hardware design trend that seeks to treat computers as appliances.... appliances that are starting to cost as much as an automobile. Yet when the season changes, I can swap out the snow tires without having to buy an entirely new vehicle. Or if a spark plug needs replacing, only the spark plug is replaced, not the entire engine. Furthermore, if I want to put in a big ‘ol Interstate battery to power the upgraded stereo I dropped in... you get the point.

The complicating factor is that Apple’s product lines are muddled. The iMac / MacBook were the consumer desktop/notebook lines with the Mac Mini as the alternative (all affordable but not cutting edge). The Mac Pro / MacBook Pro were for prosumers but could be scaled up to full “pro” specs. Now the mini is partly consumer but also partly pro but priced exclusively in the “pro” column but performs closer to consumer-grade. The MacBook is... what the Air should be and the Air is what the MacBook should have been but both are of questionable value because they are priced too close to the 13” MacBook Pro. The iMac remains great value for consumers (aside from the insulting entry model that STILL ships with a rotational drive) but the iMac Pro is priced like a “pro” kit but far too thermally constrained and cannot maintain performance (sadly it thermal throttles before it even tried to spin up fans)... leaving really just the Mac Pro as the only clearly “pro” system in the entire product line. But here is the root of the problem. Whereas previously the Mac Pro could be configured to scale from prosumer spec all the way up, now the cost of entry is very high for a base model with specs that are bizarrely inferior to the iMac Pro... which coincidentally costs less while including a 5k display.

That is why it is frustrating to me. The product lines, pricing, and design philosophy are too muddled and highly suggestive that Apple knows that it is more profitable to force customers into paying for integrated upgrades. Because so much hardware is now integrated, repairs are often 75% original purchase price. High price of repairs and high cost of upgrades leads to greater turnover and more sales. It is admittedly smart “business” but crappy for customers.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

like how you speak for most of the people...

I’m not speaking for most people. They are speaking for themselves, just read this thread and you will come away with the fact that most of the folks don’t understand your pain because they don’t have your same deep emotional attachment to Apple.

Riiiight, a socket is more likely to fail than a single byte in a RAM module?

Yes, and I”m pretty sure that your current emotional state is preventing you from seeing the logic that adding MORE points of failure to any system, makes a system more failure prone. Because RAM slots have ALWAYS been flawless and no one has ever had a MB replaced because the RAM slots had gone bad.

insistence that there should be no issue

I’m not insisting anything. Folks are angry (or dissatisfied, or disappointed, or frustrated... some kind of negative emotion directed at a Corporation), and they have a right to be angry. I’m not angry and I have a right to not be angry. Good?

But here is the root of the problem.

Yes, we know, they don’t make a system that has the features you want that you can aff... that you want to pay for. That leaves you feeling slighted, frustrated and angry. Like Apple doesn’t desire to have you as a customer anymore. That’s the root of the problem. As a result, there’s no amount of logic or reason that will appeal to you because you’re beyond reason right now. And again, that is completely your right to feel the way you feel.

 

[Sedulous]

I’m not speaking for most people. They are speaking for themselves, just read this thread and you will come away with the fact that most of the folks don’t understand your pain because they don’t have your same deep emotional attachment to Apple.


Yes, and I”m pretty sure that your current emotional state is preventing you from seeing the logic that adding MORE points of failure to any system, makes a system more failure prone. Because RAM slots have ALWAYS been flawless and no one has ever had a MB replaced because the RAM slots had gone bad.


I’m not insisting anything. Folks are angry (or dissatisfied, or disappointed, or frustrated... some kind of negative emotion directed at a Corporation), and they have a right to be angry. I’m not angry and I have a right to not be angry. Good?


Yes, we know, they don’t make a system that has the features you want that you can aff... that you want to pay for. That leaves you feeling slighted, frustrated and angry. Like Apple doesn’t desire to have you as a customer anymore. That’s the root of the problem. As a result, there’s no amount of logic or reason that will appeal to you because you’re beyond reason right now. And again, that is completely your right to feel the way you feel.

I am guessing you must be a psychologist but you are wrong about the “emotional state” motivating at least my own opinion (I cannot speak for others). Admittedly, I am still human and therefore have emotions. But I am debating from an informed and logical perspective. This is far more truthful than outright dismissing everything that disagrees with my opinion as “blinded by emotions”.

I repair electronics including Macs. Soldered in RAM still has just as many solder joints as a socketed module. Soldered in RAM and other traditionally modular components offers little benefit. There are just as many points of failure (still has just as many SMD components/solder joints or BGA) and occupies just as much space on the logic board. There are many downsides to integrating components that are usually modular. If that component fails, it means the entire logic board must be replaced along with all the other integrated components. In other words, if Bluetooth dies, all the RAM, SSD, CPU, GPU, all of it, has to also go in the trash. As I have previously said, this sort of integration is acceptable to at least some degree for some form factors/use-cases such as mobile devices like phones, it is not a splendid idea for computers. Even more so for professional gear that should not have downtime because of zero user serviceability.

Aside from the many downsides to integrating everything, the hardware loses flexibility. Or more specifically in Apple’s case (pun intended) a muddled product line. For example, a prosumer might like the price and specs of the iMac Pro but the form factor is not ideal, severely thermally constrained, zero serviceability, and includes a display that may not be wanted. The base Mac Pro historically served this market. Yet now the base Mac Pro is priced too high and comes with specs inferior to the iMac Pro.

From a business perspective, it makes sense for Apple to sell base models with anemic specs and cashing in on premium priced BTO options. Anemic base models that used to remain in circulation because their usefulness was extended because they were upgradable; integrated parts end that market. This increased turnover drives new Apple sales. The high cost of entry to the upgradable new Mac Pro ensures these will not interfere with that business strategy.

TLDR; Apple’s compulsion to make appliance-like computers has less to do with good hardware and more a business driven choice. This has left their product lines muddled (and mostly hobbled) leaving customers with no clear choices. The Mac Pro is a fine design but cost/spec on the entry base model is too unfavorable to help with this problem.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

There are just as many points of failure...occupies just as much space

Having said that you repair electronics, meaning you’ve been inside and have seen with your own eyes many situations... and THEN say that both 1) the points of failure are identical AND to say that 2) a socket PLUS chip occupies as much space as JUST a chip... MINUS the socket, just highlights the fact that you’re beyond reason on this. If you’re at the point where A+B = A-B, then I guess I’ve come to the end of that conversation

This has left their product lines muddled... leaving ME with no clear choices.

On this we agree, you don’t have clear choices. Others that aren’t feeling disappointed, dissatisfied, and frustrated (these are all valid emotions, by the way) DO have clear choices.

 

[Sedulous]

Having said that you repair electronics, meaning you’ve been inside and have seen with your own eyes many situations... and THEN say that both 1) the points of failure are identical AND to say that 2) a socket PLUS chip occupies as much space as JUST a chip... MINUS the socket, just highlights the fact that you’re beyond reason on this. If you’re at the point where A+B = A-B, then I guess I’ve come to the end of that conversation


On this we agree, you don’t have clear choices. Others that aren’t feeling disappointed, dissatisfied, and frustrated (these are all valid emotions, by the way) DO have clear choices.

Yup.
Red = integrated RAM
Green = SODIMM RAM
Can you tell which color rectangle is bigger?

 

[JazzyGB1]

No one is saying it’s not valid to be angered. That’s what happens when you get snubbed, you get emotional about it (and, again, if they weren’t so emotional, the statements would likely hold a LOT more coherence)

My posts have been perfectly coherent.

And see, here, again, you are trying to make a case for being outraged, but it falls flat because this is NOT the highest price Apple ever charged for a computer. Or did you not try pricing out a fully modded iMac to see that it comes in at nearly $15,000!!

I wasn't making a case for being outraged, merely pointing out the fact that (aside from the anniversary Mac), this is by far the most expensive Mac Apple have ever made...and it is.
That you can spec other models to be more expensive via build to order options is irrelevant.

Yes, because I’m not in LOVE with the New Mac Pro. I wouldn’t see $15,000 it’s laser crafted holes, it’s $15,000 sexy lift top handle and see something I LONG to be with, but, alas, can never be. I’d see a $15,000 computer and... if, like, I wanted it... and I had $15,000... I’d.. y’know. I’d have one once they’re available.

I don't think most of us see laser crafted holes or a sexy lift handle, they simply see a form factor that's more than doubled in price after a 7 year wait.
It's not reasonable to expect a $3k product to be replaced with a $6k one however much you try to argue differently.

This is HARDLY a controversial debate! Folks are hurt, they are striking out to anyone who will listen and striking out harder at those who just don’t get the disappointment, the anger, the frustration, the hurt feelings that they feel (which is pretty much everyone else)

You're doing your best to make it controversial - and it's not folks 'striking out' it's you striking out at them.
Only you have been sanctimonious and condescending to posters.
It's perfectly reasonable for users to express dissatisfaction of an Apple product on a Mac forum and it's also perfectly reasonable for them to be unhappy at the new Mac Pro costing twice as much as the one it replaces.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Can you tell which color rectangle is bigger?
View attachment 843732

Yeah. Now, JUST IMAGINE if that green rectangle wasn’t there (like on today’s computers)! Now, I’m guessing you’ll say that the Area of RED + GREEN = Area of RED. Which it doesn’t, but, I don’t know... at least it keeps your frustration and disappointment going?
[doublepost=1560882646][/doublepost]

that this is by far the most expensive Mac Apple have ever made... That you can spec other models to be more expensive via build to order options is irrelevant.

So, this is the most expensive Mac ever made except for all the more expensive Macs... which are, of course, irrelevant because you want them to be. OK. And, by the way, the Macintosh IIfx? Retailed for US$8,969(equivalent to $17,200 in 2018). So, even from a introductory price point, this is NOT the most expensive Mac Apple have ever made.

It's not reasonable to expect a $3k product to be replaced with a $6k one however much you try to argue differently.

Pointing out that you’re angry and disappointed and frustrated isn’t arguing, that’s stating a fact.

You're doing your best to make it controversial

When people say they’re dissatisfied, that’s OK, but when I AGREE that they’re dissatisfied, that’s sanctimonious and controversial and condescending?

It's perfectly reasonable for ME to express dissatisfaction of an Apple product on a Mac forum and it's also perfectly reasonable for ME to be unhappy at the new Mac Pro costing twice as much as the one it replaces.

100% agreement. It’s also reasonable to understand that not everyone feels the same outrage you do.

 

[Peperino]

On this we agree, you don’t have clear choices. Others that aren’t feeling disappointed, dissatisfied, and frustrated (these are all valid emotions, by the way) DO have clear choices.

THe only one that think that have clear choices is just you and a few others. I actually agree 100% with Sedulous.

The current computer design of Apple computers (except the new Mac pro) is quite lame, because all components are soldered, they are more difficult to repair, creating computers that are disposable appliances that if a single component fails you need to replace the entire computer or pay extremely high repair costs, which ultimately only benefits Apple.

Please do not reply saying that other computers are also soldered and blah blah. Apple used to set a great standards which other companies look up to, now for example the Macbook Pro went from what was best in its class to become the running joke and Apple refuses to change the design 3 years despite all the problems.

Once again, you should know that technology improves exponentially while prices actually fall with time.
So raising 70% the price of an iMac Mini and deliver still with 8gb Ram and 128SSD is quite lame.
[doublepost=1560887039][/doublepost]

"We want an updated product that is intended to replace the old Mac Pro." You actually mean, I don't want to improve or grow, and I'm whining cause Apple is pushing that possibility at me. It's not an 18 wheeler, it's just a car with a better engine and better options. If you want the same ole', buy the same ole. This ain't your grandmas Buick.

There is a reason I don't talk about the Mac Pro specifically, and that is because $5,999 doesn't deserve a thread this long, but it speaks volumes about your character and whether you believe you can, or even want to succeed or not. I'd bet you my house, you'd fork that amount up for your idol's guitar on auction tho. It tells us where your priorities lie and how much we can trust you.

You JUST POST COMPLETE NONSENSE after NONSENSE displaying your complete ignorance.
First, paying for a lamborghini, when I do not need one has nothing to do me wanting to be successful.
Second, comparing instruments with computers, shows that you clearly HAVE NO CLUE. Some good instruments actually appreciate in value while technology actually loses value as soon as you buy it. Computers technology grows exponentially while loses value year after year. Hence, why previously Apple use to release hardware upgrades at the same prices. Now with Cook's greed, he thinks that for putting a useless touchbar he can raise $400 on the price of a Macbooks Pro, that is Pathetic.
Third, Even having the best instrument it will not warranty that you will play or sound better. Jaco Pastorius, one of the best bass players ever lived used to play on his old crappy bass having one of the best sounds ever.
Your arrogant, condescending and demeanor attitude and comments that whoever cannot afford a 10k computer does not want to be succesful is complete BS and show your true colors.

The truth is that the basic MAc Pro model is less powerful than the iMac Pro. And we all know the iMac Pro is NOT expandandable and Blah blah...And in order to get a decent MAc Pro set up you will end up spending 9-10k. SO the entry $5999 is the typical Apple marketing scam...same thing they did with the pathetic $1k monitor stand

 

[Sedulous]

Yeah. Now, JUST IMAGINE if that green rectangle wasn’t there (like on today’s computers)! Now, I’m guessing you’ll say that the Area of RED + GREEN = Area of RED.

Apparently you do not understand that the area of integrated RAM (red rectangle) is LARGER than the size of a RAM module (green rectangle). Integrating the RAM with logic board does not actually save space. Why debate it further when the truth is there in illustrated photo?

I don’t know... at least it keeps your frustration and disappointment going?

Sadly, no. It is not frustration but sadness that these simple comparisons are not understood. Red box BIGGER THAN green box.... this is elementary stuff.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Integrating the RAM with logic board does not actually save space.

You have a reason for believing what you do, I just did a quick search and found that your assumptions are off, but, none of that is going to change how you feel about Apple and their practice of soldering RAM to the motherboard.

not frustration but sadness

Ok, so you were frustrated before, now you’re sad... still, very valid emotions to feel!
[doublepost=1560894751][/doublepost]

THe only one that think that have clear choices

Are people that aren’t feeling emotional about the state of the Mac lineup. They want a computer that does a thing, they go buy that computer, they go on with life.

I actually agree 100% with Sedulous.

Yes, people that are feeling the same disappointment, frustration, sadness at being snubbed by Apple are going to have a lot in common. That’s expected.

all components are soldered

ALL the components? In ALL the systems other than the Mac Pro?

 

[Sedulous]

Ok, fairly sure we are being trolled.

Anyways, back on topic. Considering how rapidly core counts are increasing, I wonder if Logic will need to be updated to increase thread cap for future CPUs. I mean, AMD has gone bananas with core count and presumably Intel will have to follow suit. Anyone know if the "afterburner" card might impact audio production suites?

 

[xjk]

If you’re a real pro you can afford a Mac Pro. I guess you’re just not “Pro” enough ;-)

You're talking major nonsense. The Mac Pro is for a very specific and small segment of "Pro". For example, there are full time coding professional data scientists or econometricians who need a lot of CPU and sometimes RAM often enough that cloud computing is too inconvenient. But most of them have very little use for a 8k Monitor, ECC Memory, and other Mac Pro hardware features.

Personally I'd prefer Mac under somewhat reasonable and justifiable terms. So I guess my future will be Linux.

 

[Peperino]

ALL the components? In ALL the systems other than the Mac Pro?

Mac mini- Except RAM everything else yes.
iMac Pro- Yes and it is almost unserviceable.
iMac- iT is good since you can easily exchange RAM.
Macbooks- Are all soldered. Even worse, in the Macbook Pro if a single key fails (which they actually do quite often), Apple needs to change the entire keyboard.

So if you are asking is because you have no clue about the computer line up...so keep dreaming, talk about emotions and speaking nonsense. A 9 year old kid has better critical mind and ca better see the facts.
[doublepost=1560903988][/doublepost]

Ok, fairly sure we are being trolled.

Anyways, back on topic. Considering how rapidly core counts are increasing, I wonder if Logic will need to be updated to increase thread cap for future CPUs. I mean, AMD has gone bananas with core count and presumably Intel will have to follow suit. Anyone know if the "afterburner" card might impact audio production suites?

Regarding Logic, they just released an update 10.4.5 which increased the track counts to 1000 audio, 1000 soft synth, 1000 aux. I do not know how they optimize it to take advantage for the cores. But if you are recording live, it is better to have faster cores (and less number), than more quantity of cores and with less speed.

 

[Sedulous]

People that have no clue or work for Apple PR post similar things and have no critical minds whatsoever. We can see that in your baseless postings.


Mac mini- Except RAM everything else yes.
iMac Pro- Yes and it is almost unserviceable.
iMac- iT is good since you can easily exchange RAM.
Macbooks- Are all soldered. Even worse, in the Macbook Pro if a single key fails (which they actually do quite often), Apple needs to change the entire keyboard.

So if you are asking is because you have no clue about the computer line up...so keep dreaming, talk about emotions and speaking nonsense. A 9 year old kid has better critical mind and ca better see the facts.
[doublepost=1560903988][/doublepost]

Forget about UNregistered. He is a troll. Talking to a kid makes better sense.
Regarding Logic, they just released an update 10.4.5 which increased the track counts to 1000 audio, 1000 soft synth, 1000 aux. I do not know how they optimize it to take advantage for the cores. But if you are recording live, it is better to have faster cores (and less number), than more quantity of cores and with less speed.

Actually for current MacBooks of all flavors, a failed keyboard requires replacing the entire top case (because keyboard is riveted to body and battery is glued to same frame). This means the entirety of the computer has to be removed from old case, the old body, keyboard, and battery are then “recycled”. The logic board and display are then swapped to a new top case/keyboard/battery assembly. That is some awful engineering and must be costing Apple a fortune to cover under extended service program.

Thanks for answer about audio work. I guess it is still unclear if the new Afterburner card would be useful for audio production.

 

[Kevbasscat]

Having said that you repair electronics, meaning you’ve been inside and have seen with your own eyes many situations... and THEN say that both 1) the points of failure are identical AND to say that 2) a socket PLUS chip occupies as much space as JUST a chip... MINUS the socket, just highlights the fact that you’re beyond reason on this. If you’re at the point where A+B = A-B, then I guess I’ve come to the end of that conversation


On this we agree, you don’t have clear choices. Others that aren’t feeling disappointed, dissatisfied, and frustrated (these are all valid emotions, by the way) DO have clear choices.

@Unregistered 4U,
@Sedulous point is correct about soldered vs socket points and size. Unless you're talking about tiny useless discrepancies that do not effect the performance or reliability of the machine. Apple's decision to solder vs use contacts is purely an attempt at putting us under their thumb to force us to buy new, and kill any opportunity to allow third party repair shops the ability to do their jobs. But honestly limitation is only a place your mind creates for whatever reason. HOWEVER, advancements in technology don't necessarily enable Apple to engineer unrepairable or non upgradable hardware. Back when consumer dvd/cd/tv's etc became affordable to the masses, "flat pacs," (see attached photo) the term used by tech's back then did not have the reliability they have today, and needed to be replaced much more often. I owned a factory authorized service center for consumer, professional, and high end (JPL, NASA, tv broadcast & recording ind. etc) grade audio, video, transmission, system components, repair and service. We were required to attend ea company's factory training classes to keep up with their new approaches, and associated theory of operation, in order to troubleshoot and service these new advancements. I would imagine @Sedulous remembers this. Back in the '80s for a year or two, they weren't using heat guns to remove/replace these flat pacs, they used highly configurable solder stations, and at first we desoldered and soldered these items in by hand, one tab at a time. it didn't take long (months I believe) before the chisel approach was adopted and we could then solder a whole side by hand. Tbh lol, it was so far ago, I could certainly get the timetable wrong, but the approaches are fairly close. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This required developing solder skills previously not even considered. It was oh, I imagine a year or more before they came out with the heat gun approach, which required it's own set of skills to avoid over heating the adjacent components and we adopted lower temp silver solder as a way to keep that thermal soak to other components at a minimum. We didn't have pre heaters and much of the tech we use nowadays to solder, unsolder. With our advances in solder technology today, it is certainly not impossible to remove soldered in RAM and CPU/GPU's, etc. It does however require developing higher skill sets to achieve. Back then the most common issue was those d*&^m solder bridges from one contact to another as seen in the attached photo. For examples of techs achieving and overcoming this very thing today, you only need to watch dosedude1 and Louis Rossman. These are the examples of the human spirit, (the never quit mindset) and the application of ever expanding skill sets inspired by creativity, and need. They don't see obstacles, they "choose" to see opportunity to grow.

I've also been repairing electronics my whole life including Macs. I'm afraid this discussion has turned into picking the fly dung apart in efforts to be right. That being said, there are many versions of "right." It all boils down to perspective and you both have valid points, but without having hard empirical data it's all just conjecture in the end.

I will say, you're both passionate, intelligent, resourceful people and make compelling arguments. Personally when I see these kinds of debate, I can't help but want to see the two of you work together, because passion, knowledge, and a never quit attitude squared is pretty awesome to watch. It only requires shelving egos for the pursuit of the more important mission. For a view of that right now check out the unsupported Catalina thread. It is pure inspiration watching that group work. Those amazing examples of inspiration happen nearly every single day on that thread.

It is sad that today's Apple, departed Steve Job's mission statement, especially for those of us who not only became emotionally attached, but fell in love with Apple. It very much feels like betrayal, and that the very things which created that love, were abandoned for profitability. What hurts even more is the division it creates, such as this one. Personally I don't care if I'm right, because I prefer knowing and understanding the truth. At my age time and the truth are paramount. A wise soul told me, "we spend the first half of our lives trying to build our ego, and the second half trying to destroy it, because the things I don't know...fill libraries. Being teachable is the realization that I have only one perspective, among 7 billion. Being "right" at the expense of other's is not wisdom, it lack thereof...
namaste,

Edit: Duh lol, Forgot to attach photo, please forgive me.

 

[Sedulous]

@Unregistered 4U,
@Sedulous point is correct about soldered vs socket points and size. Unless you're talking about tiny useless discrepancies that do not effect the performance or reliability of the machine. Apple's decision to solder vs use contacts is purely an attempt at putting us under their thumb to force us to buy new, and kill any opportunity to allow third party repair shops the ability to do their jobs. But honestly limitation is only a place your mind creates for whatever reason. HOWEVER, advancements in technology don't necessarily enable Apple to engineer unrepairable or non upgradable hardware. Back when consumer dvd/cd/tv's etc became affordable to the masses, "flat pacs," (see attached photo) the term used by tech's back then did not have the reliability they have today, and needed to be replaced much more often. I owned a factory authorized service center for consumer, professional, and high end (JPL, NASA, tv broadcast & recording ind. etc) grade audio, video, transmission, system components, repair and service. We were required to attend ea company's factory training classes to keep up with their new approaches, and associated theory of operation, in order to troubleshoot and service these new advancements. I would imagine @Sedulous remembers this. Back in the '80s for a year or two, they weren't using heat guns to remove/replace these flat pacs, they used highly configurable solder stations, and at first we desoldered and soldered these items in by hand, one tab at a time. it didn't take long (months I believe) before the chisel approach was adopted and we could then solder a whole side by hand. Tbh lol, it was so far ago, I could certainly get the timetable wrong, but the approaches are fairly close. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This required developing solder skills previously not even considered. It was oh, I imagine a year or more before they came out with the heat gun approach, which required it's own set of skills to avoid over heating the adjacent components and we adopted lower temp silver solder as a way to keep that thermal soak to other components at a minimum. We didn't have pre heaters and much of the tech we use nowadays to solder, unsolder. With our advances in solder technology today, it is certainly not impossible to remove soldered in RAM and CPU/GPU's, etc. It does however require developing higher skill sets to achieve. Back then the most common issue was those d*&^m solder bridges from one contact to another as seen in the attached photo. For examples of techs achieving and overcoming this very thing today, you only need to watch dosedude1 and Louis Rossman. These are the examples of the human spirit, (the never quit mindset) and the application of ever expanding skill sets inspired by creativity, and need. They don't see obstacles, they "choose" to see opportunity to grow.

I've also been repairing electronics my whole life including Macs. I'm afraid this discussion has turned into picking the fly dung apart in efforts to be right. That being said, there are many versions of "right." It all boils down to perspective and you both have valid points, but without having hard empirical data it's all just conjecture in the end.

I will say, you're both passionate, intelligent, resourceful people and make compelling arguments. Personally when I see these kinds of debate, I can't help but want to see the two of you work together, because passion, knowledge, and a never quit attitude squared is pretty awesome to watch. It only requires shelving egos for the pursuit of the more important mission. For a view of that right now check out the unsupported Catalina thread. It is pure inspiration watching that group work. Those amazing examples of inspiration happen nearly every single day on that thread.

It is sad that today's Apple, departed Steve Job's mission statement, especially for those of us who not only became emotionally attached, but fell in love with Apple. It very much feels like betrayal, and that the very things which created that love, were abandoned for profitability. What hurts even more is the division it creates, such as this one. Personally I don't care if I'm right, because I prefer knowing and understanding the truth. At my age time and the truth are paramount. A wise soul told me, "we spend the first half of our lives trying to build our ego, and the second half trying to destroy it, because the things I don't know...fill libraries. Being teachable is the realization that I have only one perspective, among 7 billion. Being "right" at the expense of other's is not wisdom, it lack thereof...
namaste,

Appreciate the sentiment.

Just wanted to add detail: soldering some large chips like GPU or CPU is very difficult and usually requires expensive machines (particularly necessary for flip chip packages). Medium size chips like the SMC use BGA but can be done with simple hot air station. Smaller chips like the ISL power management chips are trivial. On balance, the challenge with this is not soldering but acquiring parts.

 

[Kevbasscat]

THe only one that think that have clear choices is just you and a few others. I actually agree 100% with Sedulous.

The current computer design of Apple computers (except the new Mac pro) is quite lame, because all components are soldered, they are more difficult to repair, creating computers that are disposable appliances that if a single component fails you need to replace the entire computer or pay extremely high repair costs, which ultimately only benefits Apple.

Please do not reply saying that other computers are also soldered and blah blah. Apple used to set a great standards which other companies look up to, now for example the Macbook Pro went from what was best in its class to become the running joke and Apple refuses to change the design 3 years despite all the problems.

Once again, you should know that technology improves exponentially while prices actually fall with time.
So raising 70% the price of an iMac Mini and deliver still with 8gb Ram and 128SSD is quite lame.
[doublepost=1560887039][/doublepost]

Lol, that piece of crap jazz bass nowadays sells in the high 5 digits, and I'd bet his personal Jazz Bass is most likely in the 6 digits. So why isn't he playing it today? Because he was an arrogant a**h**e, who got beat to death for bashing on everyone around him, and being right all the time, then shoving it down people's throats. Was he a genius? Absolutely. Did he create harmony on any other level than musical notation? Absolutely not. Was he respected? Only by the ignorant. I was the bass player in the house band at Cain's Ballroom in Tulsa OK, for their Wed night Pro Blues jam. I don't remember the exact date but between 6 months and a year prior to his death, he dropped in on his way to somewhere, and sat in. Admittedly I'm nowhere in the same universe as he and I showed him the upmost respect, and filled every demand he pushed at me, but that didn't stop him from verbally shredding me into tiny bits in front of my family and peers on stage. Did that make him right? I'd have to say yes, most humbly. Did he gain any fans or respect? The truth is at this level, it's a very small incestuous family, and word spreads faster than wildfire. My point is, "being right," at the expense of others is difficult to swallow, much like griping at things you have no control over, such as the new MacPro. You're both extremely ungrateful for what you have and the opportunities given to you, as if Apple owes you anything at all. Creating music that touches the heart and soul, require overlooking your circumstances, exactly like happiness does. It's simply a choice. I will promise you, an attitude of ungratefulness will bleed onto anyone's efforts at transparency and creating pure emotion. What you fail to realize is music has a higher calling other than just the sound. It effects our spirit and healing. You cannot express love and be ungrateful simultaneously, they simply come from mutually exclusive intention. I'm not poo pooing your desire to have a machine that works for you. I am saying, you missed the boat, this round to have any meaningful input as to what you desire. Maybe you should begin communicating to Apple now. If you just laugh at that statement let me say, "whether you think you can or whether you think you can't...You're right.


You JUST POST COMPLETE NONSENSE after NONSENSE displaying your complete ignorance.
First, paying for a lamborghini, when I do not need one has nothing to do me wanting to be successful.
Second, comparing instruments with computers, shows that you clearly HAVE NO CLUE. Some good instruments actually appreciate in value while technology actually loses value as soon as you buy it. Computers technology grows exponentially while loses value year after year. Hence, why previously Apple use to release hardware upgrades at the same prices. Now with Cook's greed, he thinks that for putting a useless touchbar he can raise $400 on the price of a Macbooks Pro, that is Pathetic.
Third, Even having the best instrument it will not warranty that you will play or sound better. Jaco Pastorius, one of the best bass players ever lived used to play on his old crappy bass having one of the best sounds ever.
Your arrogant, condescending and demeanor attitude and comments that whoever cannot afford a 10k computer does not want to be succesful is complete BS and show your true colors.

The truth is that the basic MAc Pro model is less powerful than the iMac Pro. And we all know the iMac Pro is NOT expandandable and Blah blah...And in order to get a decent MAc Pro set up you will end up spending 9-10k. SO the entry $5999 is the typical Apple marketing scam...same thing they did with the pathetic $1k monitor stand

[doublepost=1560913474][/doublepost]

Appreciate the sentiment.

Just wanted to add detail: soldering some large chips like GPU or CPU is very difficult and usually requires expensive machines (particularly necessary for flip chip packages). Medium size chips like the SMC use BGA but can be done with simple hot air station. Smaller chips like the ISL power management chips are trivial. On balance, the challenge with this is not soldering but acquiring parts.

Oh my brother, you are so right...except that Ram and CPU's are available.
[doublepost=1560914125][/doublepost]@Sedulous,
I think the real issue for each of us is, are we equal to the task, expense and finding hardware to hone those skills. Building confidence is crucial to success, imho.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Exactly, you are correct! IT is not just the price. paying for an 18 wheeler when you need a car does not make sense, even if I have the money.

I respect your opinion, but this one you are wrong. All the computers you are mentioning are NOT an overkill for Pros, including the iMac Pro. The iMac Pro external and internal design, has a lot of issues that a 5-8k Pro computer should not have to deal with not adjustable monitor, upgradable RAM is super easy in the regular iMac, in the Pro you need to disassemble almost the entire machine, Almost every component is soldered, etc...
It is far from being a "Pro" Computer, especially if you plan to spend 7-8k.

The video from Linus Tech Tips pretty much addresses everything that is wrong with Apple "Pro" products today, and shows EXACTLY why they are the opposite of "Pro". I love their snark, 'cause it's RIGHT ON.

There is simply NO excuse for Apple to do this other than money for them.

But still, THAT's how much we love macOS.

We PUT UP with all that bull because we must if we love Mac OS.

 

[Peperino]

Actually for current MacBooks of all flavors, a failed keyboard requires replacing the entire top case (because keyboard is riveted to body and battery is glued to same frame). This means the entirety of the computer has to be removed from old case, the old body, keyboard, and battery are then “recycled”. The logic board and display are then swapped to a new top case/keyboard/battery assembly. That is some awful engineering and must be costing Apple a fortune to cover under extended service program.

Thanks for answer about audio work. I guess it is still unclear if the new Afterburner card would be useful for audio production.

I do not believe the Afterburner will help in audio production.

 

[AvantiVendingMachines]

That is good! Because have 64-bit processor.

 

[Kevbasscat]

Just a short explanation and why we feel so strongly about the decisions. For a very quick view of why soldering and glueing CPU"s GPU's and glueing batteries in Apple computers has such impacts not only because we cannot repair how it effects our economy and the but on the ecosystem of our earth visit iFixit.com.

Apple has intentionally taken these very routes in which honesty, puts families who can marginally afford them now if they get broken, and let's not pretend that 87% of teens have an iPhone. Now how many of yours or any of your friends teen have broke at least one phone. We all know the parents will do without in order to help their kids be acceptable. So Apple has literally got them by the short 'n curly's. With computers, these require a much larger investment, but since their reliability has declined, because the Apple's hardware isn't what it used to be, nor the engineering. With soldered ram and ssd's along with the CPU's and GPU's, if it requires any kind of. soldered replacement, consider you investment a loss, because they'll hand it back to you, and they say you must purchase and new laptop or desktop. Not too many years ago, all or most of Apple's hardware was user replaceable, you know ...like a chevy. Honestly? it very much feels like extortion. The biggest contributor of passion was created by Apple not recognizing just how attached this HUGE selection of zealots (raises hand), has been. even at out own expense we've sung their praises, being their best salesmen and women. Example: Since 1999, I have not purchased any phone or computer, not made by Apple and that's goes for my whole family also. That is large chunk of change, I promise you.

Now what makes it even more like we've been betrayed is, I have owned a few service companies and we did Apple repairs although it wasn't a large number and they all out of warranty work.
The advent of soldering has literally put a death sentence on your devices toady. A much much shorter one than if you had removable integrated hardware. If you think your computer is expensive when you purchase it. After it's warrantees and Apple Care expire and it breaks.... you'll experience and understand these emotions. If it weren't for that darn OS...lol..

 

[AvantiVendingMachines]

Great information about apple. It is one of the best brand. Thank you Apple!

 

[Abazigal]

@Kevbasscat

I have been thinking of how to best word my response and after a few revisions, I think this is as coherent as I can make it.

I guess my attitude can best be described as indifferent.

Here's my experience with Apple products. I got my first Apple product - a 27" iMac in 2011. I owned it for about 6 years (upgraded to a 5k iMac in 2017). During this time, I have experienced only 1 screen problem with it, which AppleCare took care of. I don't know if that was the norm, but Apple actually sent someone down to my house to take a look at it, brought it back for servicing, and then had it returned to my house a couple of days later. Otherwise, my iMac hasn't given me any issues since.

I have also had a dead motherboard problem with my 6S+ and the anodisation on my Series 2 Apple Watch peeling, and Apple replaced them for me (both were within AppleCare warranty periods). But apart from them, I haven't had any issues with my apple products.

Prior to this, I had owned numerous windows PCs, and not once have I thought of opening up the internals to upgrade or tinker with it. So while I do agree that all other things equal, having the option to open up your device is better than not having the option to, but let's at least start with buying the right device for the right operation. Laptops/phones/iMacs are bought for the thinness and fashionableness of them at the expense of easy access and user fixability, and I wager the majority of Apple customers are not going to be cracking open their apple products to service them anyways.

Just a short explanation and why we feel so strongly about the decisions. For a very quick view of why soldering and glueing CPU"s GPU's and glueing batteries in Apple computers has such impacts not only because we cannot repair how it effects our economy and the but on the ecosystem of our earth visit iFixit.com.

I am just quoting this segment but I really mean to address your entire response.

I guess that first and foremost, it is a company's right to decide how accessible and repairable they want their products to be, is it not? If you want a device that can be easily opened up and upgraded / repaired, then maybe don't get a Mac in the first place? I am sure there are tons of PCs that fit the bill. Which brings me to my next point.

It seems to me like the average consumer doesn’t even like using PCs and doesn’t know how they work anymore, so I think the laptop/phone/tablet generation are going to continue to buy these disposable products. Yes, the old laptops used to be operable and openable, but the new super-thin laptops of today are clearly not meant for that, and Microsoft even made one that’s all glued together, so it's not just Apple.

People get excited about MacBook Pros. They just like the look of skinny-thin things. They come with all these limitations, and yet people still like them. Maybe they just look and feel cool. It’s like buying a car that’s super thin, but has no hood that you can reach and requires the dealer to do anything. That’s becoming our future and if people are buying these products, then Apple is going to continue to make more laptops and phones that are not openable, and Apple likes this, because it means people replace their laptops more frequently than they would if they had gone to some PC outlet to get the computer parts they needed. This is the future tech companies have always wanted, and since consumers evidently love thin products, it’s really a marriage made in heaven, so disposable hardware it is!

Second, I don’t necessarily see it as Apple "preventing" people from fixing them. Maybe the way technology is headed is inherently "preventative" and perhaps even better if they are designed this way, because they are more streamlined/cheaper if glued or soldered together? Who knows - maybe the advantage is that they can be thinner, more efficient, and possibly use technology that’s beyond what would be possible if they were held down by ideas of trying to make it accessible?

I do agree that it is more profitable for the company (and initially cheaper for the consumer when they buy the product), but in the long run, it is also more expensive for the consumer. However, the consumers are the ones supporting that future by continuing to buy laptops and iMacs and these other skinny little devices which by their very own admission are extremely hard to access and service.

At the end of the day, it’s probably still better for the consumer to have more money be thrown at these companies, because it means that in theory, they have more money to work with to make more inventions. If we didn’t spend as much money on computers, then it would be less lucrative, there would be fewer investors, which means the market would be smaller and while things would be cheaper for us, and the products themselves probably wouldn’t be as good as they could be. For instance, iPhones are as advanced as they are, because for the last 10 years we’ve been paying a premium towards it, and we see how far that has brought us since Steve Jobs first unveiled it in 2007.

Yes, it is more expensive for us, but that also means we get better service and more investment from these companies into these devices. If we were still using PCs and Macs that had tower frames with user-upgradeable parts, then these computers would last longer and you could argue people would spend less money on them, which means Apple would not have invested in battery or computer technology as much, which means we wouldn’t have our technology as advanced as we do, because they wouldn’t have had the money or financial incentive to do the research, because we didn’t give them the extra money, and instead chose to spend it on food or cars or homes.

The amount of money available at our economy is finite. If we don’t spend on one thing, then the money goes somewhere else. As a society, we have voted with our wallets and chosen to invest more and more of our money on phones and laptops, which means less money for other things, but hopefully this means more innovation and better quality hardware and software, since computers are getting more of our money.

Am I making sense? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯