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I had the 2008 cheese grater. Such a tower in Apple form would not sell like hot cakes. MacBooks sell like hotcakes. It's 2019. Majority of market is not tinkler geeks.

Why the hell do you keep bringing GPU in if you say you work in audio?

As far as mini goes, you can add RAM. You can add super fast SSD via a single thunderbolt3 port (and it works great). eGPUs are not "overpriced" for what they deliver, they are what they are, if you really need them.
If you do need them, then Mac Pro is for you, or iMac Pro.
if you do audio you DONT need them, then Mini is great.

Upgradability is not PROFESSIONAL and never was.
Serviceability and SUPPORT makes a professional product.
If I call Apple at 4AM on a sunday and need help, and they provide it. That makes a professional product, not the ability to change RAM.
Ability to change RAM makes a cheap product. Which has absolutely nothing to do with professional.

I do not understand posts like the above. Why are you telling someone else what they need? Mini and iMac are nice but never meant for workstation class work. Yes, RAM can be added to a MacMini but they soldered in the storage (of all things)... for “reasons”. And yes, GPU can be used to accelerate audio processing.

Point out a single server rack that uses soldered-in RAM, storage. Of course “professional” products offer serviceability and support. Soldered in components are not serviceable and thus not professional... it is garbage artificial limitations imposed by Apple to protect their premium pricing for upgrades and increase turnover rate (due to shorted useful lifespan and increased cost of repairs due to integrated components).

Professional in general means capable of or appropriate for a particular task. Is it appropriate for a desktop to have no upgradable parts? Non-removable storage?
 
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No they wouldn't, which is why they haven't bothered.

You just keep quoting nonsense about the iMac Pro (and you're right you definitely don't need all that power either) - the fans don't run at full speed, again you haven't got one, you're talking utter crap. Want a vertical monitor (you don't you'r just being difficult again) then buy a vertical monitor, or mount the iMac Pro onto a VESA bracket and turn it that way, easy.

As I keep saying over and over and you keep proving - you just want a cheaper computer that you can put your own parts in and run macOS. The standard iMac has plenty enough power for you to complete any project you could possible think of doing, but you want to save money by bunging your own budget drives and RAM in - it's all about money - and Apple don't want to have to give support to someone who's built their own desktop system by sticking the latest components on offer at Amazon in it because they didn't want to stump for the original thing.

It's such an entitleist attitude to demand a computer should be upgradeable. My OLED TV cost more than an iMac, it's not upgradeable. Every single piece of pro equipment i've ever bought, including a 2 channel audio interface which does nothing but output a single stereo audio feed and cost nearly £9000, twice as much as the iMac Pro IS NOT UPGRADABLE. So to demand that your computer MUST be upgradeable because once, 15 years ago you could buy a Mac Pro and put your own hard drives in it, is just mental entitleist thinking. 15 years before that the original Mac nor the Lisa were upgradable either.

I wish I could like this twice, point well made. People, you can wish and whine, but the MacPro is here most likely in Sept. Why are ya'll acting like if you fuss enough, the Pro or Apple are going to change their stripes? Consider this in the past, and you can't change the past. It's a kick a*s computer admit it. If you can't think or grow into the scale of this reality, please just accept that you didn't get your wish, and be ok with it. Cause, you can't change a single second of the past. It's done, but you can choose to turn this into a positive. Apple just laid before you...sooooo many possibilities. Have you priced the new ford trucks or my daughter's new Z-71? Her truck cost in the neighborhood of $70,000, ya. Apple isn't the only company raising prices and adding options, and for a bit of perspective these truck prices eclipse a measly $5,999 MacPro, only chances are their not going to make a living using their trucks. I know my daughter isn't, it's purely a 4 wheel driving a toy. Try thinking on a larger scale of possibility, and be grateful that there is a tool available to you, which after you tried it out, would almost surely put a smile from ear to ear on that face, and you'd more than likely admit, it's pretty bad a*s. Honestly, wouldn't you be thrilled just knowing you have a stallion under your desk, and the feeling for once, that you didn't settle for mediocrity?

I discovered many years ago, when shopping for a new house. I looked at what "I could afford." eh... lol. Then I went two grades up, and the salesman knowing my budget, did his magic and guess what? It worked out, and I moved into that better home, because if you ask for your best and highest you'll get it. If you don't, well:). An attitude of possibility creates amazing opportunities. The sheer confidence knowing that powerhouse has got your back in any situation, pumping out whatever you throw at it, and omg! You can't hear the fans! So now you can record those special intimate sessions, inside the control room where a great deal of magic happens. You've all been there I'm sure. Instead of seeing roadblocks, choose to see possibility, because that's how we grow, and the positivity helps make the world a little better place for all of us.
 
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That's so ridiculous tho.
NI and VSL should step up their game and allow streaming directly from NVMe drives. No need for RAM anymore.

Storage limitations aren't the issue. CPUs are needed to create the synth voices, filters, FX etc.
 
I do not understand posts like the above. Why are you telling someone else what they need? Mini and iMac are nice but never meant for workstation class work. Yes, RAM can be added to a MacMini but they soldered in the storage (of all things)... for “reasons”. And yes, GPU can be used to accelerate audio processing.

Point out a single server rack that uses soldered-in RAM, storage. Of course “professional” products offer serviceability and support. Soldered in components are not serviceable and thus not professional... it is garbage artificial limitations imposed by Apple to protect their premium pricing for upgrades and increase turnover rate (due to shorted useful lifespan and increased cost of repairs due to integrated components).

Professional in general means capable of or appropriate for a particular task. Is it appropriate for a desktop to have no upgradable parts? Non-removable storage?
Please show me a practical realworld example where GPU can be used to accelerate audio processing.
Because I've bought the 2008 8-core cheesegrater with a better GPU based solely on that promise, I even added an additional GT120 in later, because OpenCL was supposed to take advantage of it.
Fast forward 10years - I don't have a single plugin in Logic or 3rd party that would do any processing on the GPU, hell, even out of plugins, ONLY ChromaVerb has GUI that's GPU accelerated, everything else is rendered on the CPU.

And i've talked with a plugin dev on KVR and they don't want to bother with rendering on Metal because it's a crossplatform issue.

Soldered components that do not fail are professional. Every capacitor and resistor on a motherboard was never user-servicable and they could as well fail. (every capacitor fails eventually) and that doesn't mean those machines weren't professional. RAM and SSD fails are not something 2012 (first soldered RAM machines) are known for at all. GPUs failed before any of them had RAM issues.

Also, i'm not telling people what they need. Audio is simply not as demanding as Video is. That doesn't mean it's not professional or anything, but you simply don't need as much power for it.

Whether storage is soldered or not is moot - iMac Pro and Mac Pro don't have soldered storage, but it's non-upgradable due to T2 chip anyway, so it's effectively soldered. And in any case, I don't see that as a real shortcoming in a desktop anymore, personally.
I really really embraced TB3 and i love the fact that my external storage is as fast as internal storage and I can just pick up the drive i use for projects and continue working on my laptop when i'm away from the desktop.
But yeah, that's a really personal use case.

And storage had to be removable because HDDs malfunction a lot. SSDs don't, anymore, and have so much more IO operations on them than HDDs it's ridiculous.
So really, a professional machine should have SERVICEABLE parts that OFTEN FAIL, so you can easily get on with your work. This is really the only thing that matters, everything else is some nostalgic notion of how computers could be taken apart.

Is it appropriate for desktop to have no upgradable parts or non-removable storage? I don't know. I had the Cheesegrater 2008 and i would have said no in 2008. In 2019, i don't care, as long as it gets the job done.

Storage limitations aren't the issue. CPUs are needed to create the synth voices, filters, FX etc.
Yeah i agree wholeheartedly, but you were talking about VSL which is sample based, and jumping through hoops is mostly due to poor implementation. Sample based libraries usually eat up RAM before they max out a CPU, even my old 2012 quadcore 15" could handle more than 500 voices from Kontakt.

Storage limitations are issues because you need to load samples into RAM if you have slow storage, on NVMe drive, that issue disappears.

Also, Mini was the single most powerful Mac sans iMac Pro (and even 8-core iMac Pro was pretty close) since ever.

That's why I said (somewhere) that GPU heavy-handed Mac Pros with single-CPU setups such as the 2013 trashcan or 2019 Grater are not really audio computers.
Previous graters were all dual CPU, and i said (somewhere) that dual-CPU single GPU (as to not task cooling so badly, since GPUs are hot as fck) would be a great audio computer.

It's literally the Mini, but double high to accommodate another chip, with pins instead of soldered CPUs, and dual CPU slots. Yes please now.
 
No they wouldn't, which is why they haven't bothered.

You just keep quoting nonsense about the iMac Pro (and you're right you definitely don't need all that power either) - the fans don't run at full speed, again you haven't got one, you're talking utter crap. Want a vertical monitor (you don't you'r just being difficult again) then buy a vertical monitor, or mount the iMac Pro onto a VESA bracket and turn it that way, easy.

As I keep saying over and over and you keep proving - you just want a cheaper computer that you can put your own parts in and run macOS. The standard iMac has plenty enough power for you to complete any project you could possible think of doing, but you want to save money by bunging your own budget drives and RAM in - it's all about money - and Apple don't want to have to give support to someone who's built their own desktop system by sticking the latest components on offer at Amazon in it because they didn't want to stump for the original thing.

It's such an entitleist attitude to demand a computer should be upgradeable. My OLED TV cost more than an iMac, it's not upgradeable. Every single piece of pro equipment i've ever bought, including a 2 channel audio interface which does nothing but output a single stereo audio feed and cost nearly £9000, twice as much as the iMac Pro IS NOT UPGRADABLE. So to demand that your computer MUST be upgradeable because once, 15 years ago you could buy a Mac Pro and put your own hard drives in it, is just mental entitleist thinking. 15 years before that the original Mac nor the Lisa were upgradable either.

This is a very good point. And while I disagree that it is an "entitleist" attitude (I am the one paying so I have to be WILLING to pay for what I get), the issue is different than this.

I remember reading somewhere way back that Steve wanted to make appliances. Apple's direction has simply solidified this in recent years.

While many of us want self-upgradeable Apple machines like they used to offer, Apple simply stopped producing them.

There truly is no choice, you either pony up for whatever Apple wants to charge upfront for upgrades and deal with the downtime associated with repairs, or not use a Mac.

It is that simple.
 
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Please show me a practical realworld example where GPU can be used to accelerate audio processing.
Because I've bought the 2008 8-core cheesegrater with a better GPU based solely on that promise, I even added an additional GT120 in later, because OpenCL was supposed to take advantage of it.
Fast forward 10years - I don't have a single plugin in Logic or 3rd party that would do any processing on the GPU, hell, even out of plugins, ONLY ChromaVerb has GUI that's GPU accelerated, everything else is rendered on the CPU.

And i've talked with a plugin dev on KVR and they don't want to bother with rendering on Metal because it's a crossplatform issue.

Soldered components that do not fail are professional. Every capacitor and resistor on a motherboard was never user-servicable and they could as well fail. (every capacitor fails eventually) and that doesn't mean those machines weren't professional. RAM and SSD fails are not something 2012 (first soldered RAM machines) are known for at all. GPUs failed before any of them had RAM issues.

Also, i'm not telling people what they need. Audio is simply not as demanding as Video is. That doesn't mean it's not professional or anything, but you simply don't need as much power for it.

Whether storage is soldered or not is moot - iMac Pro and Mac Pro don't have soldered storage, but it's non-upgradable due to T2 chip anyway, so it's effectively soldered. And in any case, I don't see that as a real shortcoming in a desktop anymore, personally.
I really really embraced TB3 and i love the fact that my external storage is as fast as internal storage and I can just pick up the drive i use for projects and continue working on my laptop when i'm away from the desktop.
But yeah, that's a really personal use case.

And storage had to be removable because HDDs malfunction a lot. SSDs don't, anymore, and have so much more IO operations on them than HDDs it's ridiculous.
So really, a professional machine should have SERVICEABLE parts that OFTEN FAIL, so you can easily get on with your work. This is really the only thing that matters, everything else is some nostalgic notion of how computers could be taken apart.

Is it appropriate for desktop to have no upgradable parts or non-removable storage? I don't know. I had the Cheesegrater 2008 and i would have said no in 2008. In 2019, i don't care, as long as it gets the job done.


Yeah i agree wholeheartedly, but you were talking about VSL which is sample based, and jumping through hoops is mostly due to poor implementation. Sample based libraries usually eat up RAM before they max out a CPU, even my old 2012 quadcore 15" could handle more than 500 voices from Kontakt.

Storage limitations are issues because you need to load samples into RAM if you have slow storage, on NVMe drive, that issue disappears.

Also, Mini was the single most powerful Mac sans iMac Pro (and even 8-core iMac Pro was pretty close) since ever.

That's why I said (somewhere) that GPU heavy-handed Mac Pros with single-CPU setups such as the 2013 trashcan or 2019 Grater are not really audio computers.
Previous graters were all dual CPU, and i said (somewhere) that dual-CPU single GPU (as to not task cooling so badly, since GPUs are hot as fck) would be a great audio computer.

It's literally the Mini, but double high to accommodate another chip, with pins instead of soldered CPUs, and dual CPU slots. Yes please now.
Modular components help reduce downtime and increase flexibility to both the manufacturer AND the customer. And yes, RAM failures remain a “thing” even after 2012 except now instead of it being a question of spending $40 to swap out a module myself, it is $700-$1000 and several days wait for repair. SSDs also fail. WiFi/BT modules do fail. Modularity/config-ability is professional because it adds so much more value to a system because there is that certainty if some components fail or need to be upgraded, it can be done quickly with a reasonable cost instead of having to replace the entire asset (even big time studios DO have a budget). The T2 chip does not prevent removable storage.

I guess I only caught part of your conversation with someone else and did not realize you were advising specifically about audio work. My mistake. And you are right, for purely audio, nothing mainstream uses GPU acceleration (apparently something to do with audio production benefits from smaller bits processed on the fly - latency). It is a shame Apple did not maintain a multi CPU configuration for new Mac Pro. The old cheese grater trays were marvelous form of configurability. Apple should have kept that so their new machines could have scaled from prosumer up to top-professional.
 
I hope they would keep the trash can but with newer connections and refreshed CPU as a (cheaper) mid version for the pro market that don't need PCI slots and are fine with ok graphic cards. Some people have external chassis already for their PCI cards. But I don't think it will happen.

Agreed.

But that's the frustrating part: Apple keeps trying to reinvent the wheel.

As cool as the latest Mac Pro is, an updated-instead-of-fully-redesigned pre-2013 could have sufficed.

Now the 2013 Mac Pro is a COMPLETE waste of time.

As it stands, the mini+external everything is the setup that'll have to do.

I'll just try to find matching enclosure manufacturers and build a Mac Stack with a mini on top.
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Modular components help reduce downtime and increase flexibility to both the manufacturer AND the customer. And yes, RAM failures remain a “thing” even after 2012 except now instead of it being a question of spending $40 to swap out a module myself, it is $700-$1000 and several days wait for repair. SSDs also fail. WiFi/BT modules do fail. Modularity/config-ability is professional because it adds so much more value to a system because there is that certainty if some components fail or need to be upgraded, it can be done quickly with a reasonable cost instead of having to replace the entire asset (even big time studios DO have a budget). The T2 chip does not prevent removable storage.

I guess I only caught part of your conversation with someone else and did not realize you were advising specifically about audio work. My mistake. And you are right, for purely audio, nothing mainstream uses GPU acceleration (apparently something to do with audio production benefits from smaller bits processed on the fly - latency). It is a shame Apple did not maintain a multi CPU configuration for new Mac Pro. The old cheese grater trays were marvelous form of configurability. Apple should have kept that so their new machines could have scaled from prosumer up to top-professional.

This is the hurt. The frustration. Apple is effectively telling those users like this: We neither need nor want your business.

Apple has changed the terms of their relationship with customers. Or rather, Apple has changed their target customers, including their target pro customers.

It is what it is. The Apple we're used to is gone. Period.
 
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And people that work... in Studios are.......... amateurs? Glad we got that straight.

And people that are PRO and do NOT work in studios are....? Pros as well.

And FYI, many Pro that actually earn their money are NOT willing to spend stu-pid money on something that they actually DO not need. Again, the new Mac PRO is an overkill for many Pro users since is more intended to replace servers, Not the old Mac Pro.
 
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This is the hurt. The frustration. Apple is effectively telling those users like this: We neither need nor want your business.

Apple has changed the terms of their relationship with customers. Or rather, Apple has changed their target customers, including their target pro customers.

It is what it is. The Apple we're used to is gone. Period.

Sort of, but no need to put too much emotions in it. Think of it that way:

You live in certain neighborhood, and there is your favorite grocery where you buy quality organic products for decade or more. They have slightly higher prices than the competition, but you always know what you get for your money and everything is fine. But over the years, demographics begin to change, and there are more and more rich folks in your neighborhood, yuppies, lifestylers and so on. Your favorite grocery starts to sell more and more top quality junk food, along with the 2nd category organic products and ridiculously expensive exotic stuff. You simply don't want first two categories, and don't want to pay enormous amounts for your food, although your income allows you to do so.

And what do you do? Find another grocery.
 
MacBooks sell like hotcakes. It's 2019. Majority of market is not tinkler geeks.

I agree, if you can actually type on them. Still the current Macbook Pros are one of the worse products ever designed in Apple history. And still Apple designs a Mac Pro, which is targeted not to the Pro community but for the high end server/workstation clients, which is actually an even smaller market.

Why the hell do you keep bringing GPU in if you say you work in audio?

Because first we use 2 -3 monitors. Secondly, if you write music to video the computer start having a lot of redraw issues.

Upgradability is not PROFESSIONAL and never was.
Serviceability and SUPPORT makes a professional product.
If I call Apple at 4AM on a sunday and need help, and they provide it. That makes a professional product, not the ability to change RAM.
Ability to change RAM makes a cheap product. Which has absolutely nothing to do with professional

Support and serviceability provides "support" for a Pro product. It does not make a Pro product if it for changing the RAM you actually need to change the computer. That is if you need to change the tires on car you want me to change the car.

A "Professional" product would be easily repairable or serviceable.
If you look at the recent designs, most Apple computers extremely difficult to service or simply un-repairable since most components are soldered.
Example. The MBP if a single key in the keyboard fails, you need to change the entire keyboard. HOw pathetic is that for a "Pro" Product. If an SSD fails, you need to change the entire Logic board.
NOt only is NOT a professional product, it just simply creates more trash, more expensive repairs (which is what Apple wants) or simply users need to buy new computers, because computers are unrepairable.
It does not matter how much good service and support you have, if the products are badly designed.
So much for a "Pro" computer...

(that is not the case with the new Mac Pro... finally)
 
Sort of, but no need to put too much emotions in it. Think of it that way:

You live in certain neighborhood, and there is your favorite grocery where you buy quality organic products for decade or more. They have slightly higher prices than the competition, but you always know what you get for your money and everything is fine. But over the years, demographics begin to change, and there are more and more rich folks in your neighborhood, yuppies, lifestylers and so on. Your favorite grocery starts to sell more and more top quality junk food, along with the 2nd category organic products and ridiculously expensive exotic stuff. You simply don't want first two categories, and don't want to pay enormous amounts for your food, although your income allows you to do so.

And what do you do? Find another grocery.

It is difficult to keep emotion out of it. Apple prides itself in "surprising and delighting" its customers (emotional content).

If something you enjoyed changed in a disappointing way, it's only natural to feel the opposite emotion.

So, while I haven't quite descended into full-blown hate, I must admit I feel a bit angry that my computing will be less enjoyable than it used to be.

Like your favorite restaurant closing up shop or significantly changing the recipe when a new owner took over. If you like the taste of McDonald's, Burger King just won't do.

Although this is more like a personal relationship; a partner that no longer really wants you, and changed because of it. You can leave and find someone new, but it will not the same.

My relationship with Apple has become one-sided like this. Sadly, I love macOS even if Apple no longer loves me back.

And the OSes out there (partners) just don't measure up.

So the choices are divorce, or learn become someone you're not and stay in a strained relationship.

Fun, right?

EDIT: You can also learn to love the new partner. (Didn't want to make it ALL negative). This is want I WANT to do. But I admit it's not easy. And other attractive partners are starting to pop up...
 
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And people that are PRO and do NOT work in studios are....? Pros as well.
I think, if this wasn’t such an emotionally charged topic for you, you never would have typed:
The new Mac Pro is NOT intended for the "Pro" users. It is intended for the Studio that actually need servers/workstations level machines.
So, I should have just taken that as hyperbole because you just were trying to make a point? What you meant to say was “The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pro users, but it is indeed made for Pros, some of whom may work in Studios. I’m just upset that it’s not a system that I can affo... that I am willing to pay for”

The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pros, the iMac Pro is overkill for many Pros, heck the iMac is overkill for many pros (the majority of Apple’s pros use MacBooks and MacBook Pro’s). So Apple has a LOT of systems that are overkill for Pros, but your concern about overkill is focused on JUST THIS ONE?
 
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Modular components help reduce downtime and increase flexibility to both the manufacturer AND the customer. And yes, RAM failures remain a “thing” even after 2012 except now instead of it being a question of spending $40 to swap out a module myself, it is $700-$1000 and several days wait for repair. SSDs also fail. WiFi/BT modules do fail. Modularity/config-ability is professional because it adds so much more value to a system because there is that certainty if some components fail or need to be upgraded, it can be done quickly with a reasonable cost instead of having to replace the entire asset (even big time studios DO have a budget). The T2 chip does not prevent removable storage.

I guess I only caught part of your conversation with someone else and did not realize you were advising specifically about audio work. My mistake. And you are right, for purely audio, nothing mainstream uses GPU acceleration (apparently something to do with audio production benefits from smaller bits processed on the fly - latency). It is a shame Apple did not maintain a multi CPU configuration for new Mac Pro. The old cheese grater trays were marvelous form of configurability. Apple should have kept that so their new machines could have scaled from prosumer up to top-professional.
SSDs failure rate is pretty much negligible nowadays. I mean, failing SSD is the least of my worries with the Mac Mini.
What i'm worried is crappy GPU not being enough sooner than i hoped it will.
And CPU being to weak, also sooner than i hoped.
RAM can be changed.

There's absolutely no aftermarket SSD upgrades for SSD, you still need to turn it in to apple to get it upgraded, because the cards are limp NAND without controller, the latter being the T2 chip. So you're stuck with apple either way.

And yes, i agree. MultiCPU would be much better for audio than dual MPX modules and accelerator card. Trashcan was also dual-GPU and single CPU.
Mac Mini is really the most audio targeted Mac apple made since 2006-2012 original grater. (The 2008 8-core which i had and loved it)

I agree, if you can actually type on them. Still the current Macbook Pros are one of the worse products ever designed in Apple history. And still Apple designs a Mac Pro, which is targeted not to the Pro community but for the high end server/workstation clients, which is actually an even smaller market.



Because first we use 2 -3 monitors. Secondly, if you write music to video the computer start having a lot of redraw issues.



Support and serviceability provides "support" for a Pro product. It does not make a Pro product if it for changing the RAM you actually need to change the computer. That is if you need to change the tires on car you want me to change the car.

A "Professional" product would be easily repairable or serviceable.
If you look at the recent designs, most Apple computers extremely difficult to service or simply un-repairable since most components are soldered.
Example. The MBP if a single key in the keyboard fails, you need to change the entire keyboard. HOw pathetic is that for a "Pro" Product. If an SSD fails, you need to change the entire Logic board.
NOt only is NOT a professional product, it just simply creates more trash, more expensive repairs (which is what Apple wants) or simply users need to buy new computers, because computers are unrepairable.
It does not matter how much good service and support you have, if the products are badly designed.
So much for a "Pro" computer...

(that is not the case with the new Mac Pro... finally)
I mean, I run an LG ultrafine 4K monitor + a second smaller monitor and so far i didnt get any redraw issues. But yeah, GPU is underwhelming. But not much more would be necessary. I am opting to one day get a 2nd hand 580X blackmagic.

I agree about everything said about the MacBook Pro. Mac Mini tho, was a step in the right direction.

But yes, the 2019 Mac Pro is not for audio. It has too many things unnecessary for audio and not enough that are.
 
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Things fail
I guess the question to ask is what’s the Mean Time To Failure? I may google this later, just wondering. My assumption is that a failure of a system part is the same soldered or not. A capacitor that’s going to fail will fail either way. Meaning that a socketed solution has more points of failure than a soldered solution (since you could have a perfectly working part that for some reason has issues with the socket).
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And still Apple designs a Mac Pro, which is targeted not to the Pro community
Soooo, right above you JUST typed...
Again, the new Mac PRO is an overkill for many Pro users since is more intended to replace servers, Not the old Mac Pro.
So, which is it? Is the Mac Pro not targeted for the Pro community or is it OVERKILL for the Pro community? If it’s overkill for the Pro community, are you inferring that NO one will buy it? And, if anyone DOES buy it that they’re not a pro?

OR, do I go by my prior post and just change a couple words
“Apple designs a Mac Pro, which is targeted not TO ME
“the new Mac PRO is an overkill FOR ME

Those make WAAAAAY more sense.
 
I think, if this wasn’t such an emotionally charged topic for you, you never would have typed:

So, I should have just taken that as hyperbole because you just were trying to make a point? What you meant to say was “The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pro users, but it is indeed made for Pros, some of whom may work in Studios. I’m just upset that it’s not a system that I can affo... that I am willing to pay for”

The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pros, the iMac Pro is overkill for many Pros, heck the iMac is overkill for many pros (the majority of Apple’s pros use MacBooks and MacBook Pro’s). So Apple has a LOT of systems that are overkill for Pros, but your concern about overkill is focused on JUST THIS ONE?

You're just being obtuse.
If most silk ties cost $50, but every year I buy an Apple Silk Tie for $75, it's still perfectly valid to be angered when you wait 6 years for a promised new tie and find that when it arrives it costs $175!!!
It's more than twice the price of the item it replaced and so represents poor value for someone who just wants an updated Apple tie.
Aside from the anniversary Mac, the new Mac Pro is BY far the highest price Apple have ever charged for a computer...EVER!
Being disappointed, angry and upset by that is totally normal, defending it isn't.
Pompously declaring that if you can't afford it you don't need it is nonsense.
By your logic the New Mac Pro could start at $15,000 then and it'd still be okay?
The reason the cMac Pro has lasted so long is because it's had to.
There's been no other Tower since 2012, forcing users to hold onto their towers for almost a decade.
It's not expandability and user serviceable parts that have prevented users from upgrading to a new Mac, it's that Apple hadn't made a viable replacement since.
If Apple had released a new tower with better energy performance, modern connections and expandable RAM and internal storage in 2013, I'd be typing this on that right now.
They didn't - they made a cylindrical white elephant.
You yourself said the new Mac Pro is "overkill for many Pro users" which kind of proves the point that Apple have (once again) missed the brief, but this time by designing a product that isn't scalable enough to meet the needs of the users waiting for it.
The small market that want to spend $6k plus on an Apple tower with 256GB storage may be happy, but the many more (like me) who required the form factor more than just the improved raw CPU grunt will simply pass. In a few years time Apple will find themselves with another poor selling flagship desktop, just like the trashcan was.
History will repeat except this time it'll be because of the disproportionately high selling point of the product rather than the totally flawed design.
Maybe you're a troll or maybe you're just a polemicist - I'm not sure.
What I am sure of is that expecting people to pay $6k for a replacement to a $3k product is not reasonable.
 
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You're just being obtuse.
No, not slow to understand, probably too quick to understand for some (we haven’t even reached 10 pages yet). We KNOW why people are upset and want to shout to the hilltops about the Mac Pro. They’re being snubbed by Apple. Some have said as much (like you), some may still be attempting to show otherwise, but it’s quite clear by now.

Once you understand that, you can look at the posts to find the pieces/parts where they’re trying to say that’s NOT what it is. But, in the end it all falls apart because there are clear disconnects in the reasoning. If it’s really not for pros, then it’s not for pros, and stick to that... UNTIL, of course it IS for pros. :)

It’s perfectly valid to be angered
No one is saying it’s not valid to be angered. That’s what happens when you get snubbed, you get emotional about it (and, again, if they weren’t so emotional, the statements would likely hold a LOT more coherence) Everyone is free to be angry at whatever they like. I could be angry about the lowercase letter g... how it LOOKS SO WEIRD IN SOME FRIGFGIN FONTS!! Be angry, BUT don’t be surprised or disappointed that others don’t feel the same seething hate. Actually, don’t be surprised or disappointed that MOST don’t feel the same seething hate.

highest price Apple ever charged
And see, here, again, you are trying to make a case for being outraged, but it falls flat because this is NOT the highest price Apple ever charged for a computer. Or did you not try pricing out a fully modded iMac to see that it comes in at nearly $15,000!! That’s like me saying the lowercase letter g in Adobe Caslon Pro should not even BE in a PRO font! It looks like a badly malformed 8!!

Being disappointed is normal. Not being disappointed isn’t.
HOW CAN EVERYONE GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CHOOSING TO USE A BODONI LOWERCASE G WHEN A COURIER LOWERCASE G IS NOT ONLY MORE PLEASING TO THE EYE, BUT ALSO NOT LITERAL DEMONSPAWN!?! HOW CAN PEOPLE EVEN ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE!!??!

Pompously declaring that if you can’t afford it, you don’t need it is nonsense
Look, you can pompously SAY that Bolton is an OK font to use, but have you even LOOKED at the g in THAT font?!? All g’s should be your basic “circle with a tail” and to tell me that all lowercase g’s shouldn’t look like that is NONSENSE!

By your logic, the New Mac Pro could start at $15,000 then and it’d still e okay?
Yes, because I’m not in LOVE with the New Mac Pro. I wouldn’t see $15,000 it’s laser crafted holes, it’s $15,000 sexy lift top handle and see something I LONG to be with, but, alas, can never be. I’d see a $15,000 computer and... if, like, I wanted it... and I had $15,000... I’d.. y’know. I’d have one once they’re available.

yourself said the new Mac Pro is “overkill for the many Pro users”
Quite hilarious that you picked that particular illogical phrase to point out. Because that was from someone ELSE that’s also frustrated, angry, upset, mad, disappointed. See, even YOU pick out that text from an emotionally charged user lacks clarity.

will simply pass on it
First, you won’t simply pass on it, you’ll try to make others feel the outrage you do first. It’s not going to happen, but you’ll try! Second, the Mac Pro is DESIGNED to be low selling. That’s it’s purpose for being! There’s a VERY small number of users, in the low single digit percent of all Macs sold, that will ever buy ANY Mac Pro. So, saying that it will be low selling is just understanding market forces, market segments and economics. Good on you!

This is HARDLY a controversial debate! Folks are hurt, they are striking out to anyone who will listen and striking out harder at those who just don’t get the disappointment, the anger, the frustration, the hurt feelings that they feel (which is pretty much everyone else) There’s nothing at all controversial about that. Because of the emotional payload, ONLY the people carrying the same payload will understand the anger. Some well meaning users will not understand the emotional undercurrent to the posts and will try to figure out, logically, if they can help some of the angry folks feel better. They’ll try, and will be successful with some that say, “Yeah, I realized I’m being overly emotional... about a computer”. And it will be good for those.

There are others that don’t WANT to be calmed, they want to feel that fire in the belly that righteous indignation that makes posting to message boards such and act of “striking back” at the computer company that did them wrong. Who knows how long they’ll strike back? Not me.

What I am sure of is expecting ME to pay $6k for a replacement to a $3k product us not reasonable
Fixed that for you. Folks will understand you better if you just let them know that it’s the frustration in you that makes you say it’s not reasonable. Not that you’ve talked to a majority of Mac users and you innately KNOW that they consider reasonable.

But, gotta say... I think I’m getting really riled up about this whole lowercase g thing... looks like someone slammed a p down on top of a b and shoved an apostrophe in the side... JUST BECAUSE?? REALLY???!?!
 
L


You're just being obtuse.
If most silk ties cost $50, but every year I buy an Apple Silk Tie for $75, it's still perfectly valid to be angered when you wait 6 years for a promised new tie and find that when it arrives it costs $175!!!
It's more than twice the price of the item it replaced and so represents poor value for someone who just wants an updated Apple tie.
Aside from the anniversary Mac, the new Mac Pro is BY far the highest price Apple have ever charged for a computer...EVER!
Being disappointed, angry and upset by that is totally normal, defending it isn't.
Pompously declaring that if you can't afford it you don't need it is nonsense.
By your logic the New Mac Pro could start at $15,000 then and it'd still be okay?
The reason the cMac Pro has lasted so long is because it's had to.
There's been no other Tower since 2012, forcing users to hold onto their towers for almost a decade.
It's not expandability and user serviceable parts that have prevented users from upgrading to a new Mac, it's that Apple hadn't made a viable replacement since.
If Apple had released a new tower with better energy performance, modern connections and expandable RAM and internal storage in 2013, I'd be typing this on that right now.
They didn't - they made a cylindrical white elephant.
You yourself said the new Mac Pro is "overkill for many Pro users" which kind of proves the point that Apple have (once again) missed the brief, but this time by designing a product that isn't scalable enough to meet the needs of the users waiting for it.
The small market that want to spend $6k plus on an Apple tower with 256GB storage may be happy, but the many more (like me) who required the form factor more than just the improved raw CPU grunt will simply pass. In a few years time Apple will find themselves with another poor selling flagship desktop, just like the trashcan was.
History will repeat except this time it'll be because of the disproportionately high selling point of the product rather than the totally flawed design.
Maybe you're a troll or maybe you're just a polemicist - I'm not sure.
What I am sure of is that expecting people to pay $6k for a replacement to a $3k product is not reasonable.


I'm in no way poking or making fun at you, and with that being stated, you just wrote, "being disappointed, angry and upset by that is totally normal, defending it isn't."

One of life's greatest truths is: "Expectations are just set ups for disappointment." In reference to your signature, if you've ever attended AA, it is many times spoken in this manner.
"There are some things we complete control over, some control over, and no control. over. The key to maintaining and feeding a healthy emotional state and it's actions is, knowing which is which, and then choosing to BEHAVE appropriately.

This isn't aimed at you personally, but to each of you ranting at being powerless over Apple. Ask yourself where this issue belongs among those three categories. It is 100% Apple's decision, and honestly if you wanted any input as to design, features and price point, You HAD (past tense) two choices. You either could have petitioned them by letter, email, Pony Express, etc your input, or #2. Became a share holder with enough clout to influence those discussions.

The unit will most likely last 10 years, but let's make it 7, that is by anyone's book a reasonable number. $5,999 divided by 84 = $71.41/month. Since many of you will upgrade lets say $8,999= $107.13/month. I know those aren't the terms of Apple finance, but there are many options and approaches that lower that amount. I can almost bet you're paying $71.00/mo. for your bundled cable package. You make your living doing creative things and using your creativity, so why are you choosing not to use it here? Ask yourself, "am I happier right in this moment blaming a company and it's products over something you had ZERO control over? Now after you answer that, I would admonish you to choose the proper behavior, equal to that reality. It isn't snobbery or preaching, it's simple daily common sense, nothing more or less.
 
“The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pro users, but it is indeed made for Pros, some of whom may work in Studios. I’m just upset that it’s not a system that I can affo... that I am willing to pay for”

Exactly, you are correct! IT is not just the price. paying for an 18 wheeler when you need a car does not make sense, even if I have the money.

The Mac Pro is overkill for many Pros, the iMac Pro is overkill for many Pros, heck the iMac is overkill for many pros (the majority of Apple’s pros use MacBooks and MacBook Pro’s). So Apple has a LOT of systems that are overkill for Pros, but your concern about overkill is focused on JUST THIS ONE?

I respect your opinion, but this one you are wrong. All the computers you are mentioning are NOT an overkill for Pros, including the iMac Pro. The iMac Pro external and internal design, has a lot of issues that a 5-8k Pro computer should not have to deal with not adjustable monitor, upgradable RAM is super easy in the regular iMac, in the Pro you need to disassemble almost the entire machine, Almost every component is soldered, etc...
It is far from being a "Pro" Computer, especially if you plan to spend 7-8k.

 
Although the new Mac Pro is great, it is not the object or product we desire or that we actually need.

Regardless of affordability, As I mentioned before, we do not need to buy an 18 wheeler oversized truck, when we actually need a car.
The new Mac Pro is NOT intended for the "Pro" users. It is intended for the Studio that actually need servers/workstations level machines.
And furthermore, a "Pro" user is not defined for how much money you can spend on a computer with features that you do not need.
Apple delivered a big hose of features, when we actually needed a bottle of water.

So basically most of the "Pro" users are still left with no option.
Why whine so much?

I'm a pro user and this machine is intended for me, as far as I'm concerned. I have an old 2015 MacBook Pro that I use as a sonic 'Swiss Army knife', just picked up a fully loaded Mac Mini a couple days as a stop-gap and will buy a Mac Pro once it becomes available - I'm just waiting to see specs before deciding what to go for specifically.

You said you know Grammy-award winners; if they don't want to buy one that's fine. Although not a winner, I am Grammy nominated and have sold a fair few records in my time, even got some platinum coloured things given to me for my trouble (yes that's 'coloured', that should give you a hint where I'm from!) so even though I think it's expensive I already know how long it'll take for it to pay for itself; that time frame doesn't even include the tax write-off.

I work by myself 95% of the time so it's not being bought to impress clients, in fact I'll probably go for the rack-mounted version. I'm very happy with what I've seen regarding what this new Mac Pro is capable of and am very much looking forward to using it. I think it's going to be a great tool and if it's too expensive for you then, well, whining about it won't change that fact.

There is plenty of choice out there, not all from Apple. I've had a Hackintosh built for me which served me well in its time but I'm looking forward to things being straightforward once again!

How can you say that the computer has features you don't need? If you really ARE a pro, you'll know that the whole point of this machine is that it's truly upgradable and it wasn't designed solely for musicians (by the way, I was using Logic when it was called Creator... one ALWAYS ends up using the power their machine has, eventually). If you moan that a iMac Pro or a Mac Mini doesn't cut it due to lack of expandability and heat issues etc then how then can you say that "Apple delivered a big hose of features when we actually needed a bottle of water"? That "we" should really be an "I"... Let's be honest.
 
The unit will most likely last 10 years, but let's make it 7, that is by anyone's book a reasonable number. $5,999 divided by 84 = $71.41/month. Since many of you will upgrade lets say $8,999= $107.13/month. I know those aren't the terms of Apple finance, but there are many options and approaches that lower that amount. I can almost bet you're paying $71.00/mo. for your bundled cable package. You make your living doing creative things and using your creativity, so why are you choosing not to use it here? Ask yourself, "am I happier right in this moment blaming a company and it's products over something you had ZERO control over? Now after you answer that, I would admonish you to choose the proper behavior, equal to that reality. It isn't snobbery or preaching, it's simple daily common sense, nothing more or less.

Tring to provide finance options is ridiculous. You sound like a banker more like an Apple user.
Is like, i use to buy a BMW, but now if you want to buy a Lamborghini you can finance it.
WE DO NOT NEED A LAMBORGHINI. We want an updated product that is intended to replace the old Mac Pro.
The new Mac Pro are replacing the server types, not the old Mac PRO.
Why would i want to buy an 18 wheeler truck if I only need a car?
Why do we need to be forced to buy a Lamborghini when we only want to buy a BMW?
 
How can you say that the computer has features you don't need? If you really ARE a pro, you'll know that the whole point of this machine is that it's truly upgradable and it wasn't designed solely for musicians (by the way, I was using Logic when it was called Creator... one ALWAYS ends up using the power their machine has, eventually). If you moan that a iMac Pro or a Mac Mini doesn't cut it due to lack of expandability and heat issues etc then how then can you say that "Apple delivered a big hose of features when we actually needed a bottle of water"? That "we" should really be an "I"... Let's be honest.

The new MAc Pro was not intended to replace the old Mac Pro, but the server line.
They just called it MAc Pro.
But no Pro user that use the old cheesgreater, will ever need or use 8PCI slots. Neither 1.5tb of RAM.
The new Mac Pro is like an 18 wheeler, with plenty of power which is great. But it is NOT what most of the old Mac Pro users need.
If Apple would have released a smaller Mac Pro with 4PCI, 512 RAm, and smaller specs for less money (3k) it would have made more sense. Technology prices go down in price while speed grows exponentially. Still Apple lately, seems to charge more money for every product they released while lowering the entry specs.
 
All the computers you are mentioning are NOT an overkill for Pros, including the iMac Pro.
At this point you’re disagreeing with facts in order to make your anger feel MORE justified. You don’t need more justification for your anger, just feel it! Trying to pull others into your frustration and disappointment, especially when most DON’T feel frustration and disappointment is just going to make you feel more frustrated and angry. At anonymous Internet people.
 
@Peperino,
I'll admit I've only been a music editor since 1999 starting with Yamaha Music and then many other companies and well known artists, so please excuse my lack of knowledge, skill, and real world use. I've only personally bought maybe 8-10 Macs since that time. I'm not a banker, but each one of us are xxx. LLC corp and that whether you see it that way or makes you a business owner. I'm not just an editor or engineer, first and foremost, I'm a musician who has earned his stripes. Together that constitutes the Kevin xxx company, whether I want it to be or not, although the most successful of them not just understand, they take it seriously. Look around you at successful businesses in general. Do you see them (other than Sears, and K Mart) trying to make old paradigms that everyone else passed up work? No, they are forward looking companies, who consider expenditures such as these (They'd consider this expenditure chump change in reality) a simple cap expenditure, (well for this they'd use Apple pay, click done) because you can't be like sears, and not invest in your future, unless you like where they're headed. for God's sakes, grow up and stop thinking with your little brain. If all you can do is find reasons not to succeed, then welcome to mediocrity, hope buying your formal wear at Wallmart, just makes you giggle with pride. Back more than a few decades ago, I bought two basses, which by garage band standards was Wow! That's so cool. I never cared what anyone thought of me, my only intention was to rise above, but I had not learned that you cannot rise, driving a moped to a Cadillac event. The night before our biggest gig at that time, we were rehearsing and my moped took a crap on me. Being frustrated because it wasn't the first time, in the middle of a song, I raised the instrument over my head and did a Pete Townsend with it, face down on the concrete, snapping the neck in half. (omg that act felt like the chains of prison were snapped right off me) The band was like wtf?? I was exhaling, free from that mediocrity around my neck. My best friend ask, "Kev, what are you going to do?" I looked at him and said, I'm not going do anything. WE, you and I are leaving first thing tomorrow morning and we're buying the instruments we deserve. No more excuses, and no more second class. That next morning he bought a '70 Les custom in all real gold and a 100 watt Marshall stack. I bought a '70 precision, and that killer Acoustic 360 amp and that monster folded bottom. We played all day, trying to get a feel but when we stepped on stage, they came alive, and the possibilities of our imagination became instantly real and expressed by the honesty and purity of the sounds. Hell we had just turned 18, lol without a lick of credit, but guess what? The music store's finance manager had seen us and knew us, and gave us that credit, because she knew this purchase wasn't about feeding our egos, it was about everything to do with expressing our music with a higher purpose and passion, which was evident in every note we played. WE obviously weren't the slumped shoulder trollops that shuffle their way through the gates at Guitargit, lol i.e. Guitar Center. But here's the lesson: You absolutely kill possibility, passion and dreams when you put negative, arbitrary limits on yourself and that s***s contagious to anyone who works with you or has to be in that place with you. Because whether you believe or not, those around know, and can feel those chains suffocating their own creativity.

There is a reason I don't talk about the Mac Pro specifically, and that is because $5,999 doesn't deserve a thread this long, but it speaks volumes about your character and whether you believe you can, or even want to succeed or not. I'd bet you my house, you'd fork that amount up for your idol's guitar on auction tho. It tells us where your priorities lie and how much we can trust you.

I spent a number of years managing the electronics test lab for NTS, one of the two largest labs the Military and NASA use for qualification, failure analysis, and engineering. This lab began in the garage of one of the three founders, cleaning satellite fuel tanks, in their Mil-spec certified clean room garage. They did what they needed to do and impressed these agencies, so much that they gave them enough work and bumped up the 3 man lab quotes so could buy a lab. That's what pursuing excellence by exceeding most others work ethics will get you. Fast forward to the mid 90's. These agencies and the president himself offered these two largest test labs a military base, fully functional...for one dollar. We got McClellan AFB in Sacramento, the only test facility on earth where you can stress test a fully functional 747, elevated by only the test rig, bending, stretching, twisting, you name it. For a buck! Now that is trust and faith in action. Why? Because knowing we could never afford that facility, but without a doubt knew we had the wherewithal and would succeed by our never accept failure attitude and the creativity it requires. Exactly what those agencies not just need, but require to minimize casualties from poor engineering. Btw, we were the lab the discovered the O ring in the '86 Space Shuttle disaster. Morton Thiokol as with anyone who manufactures mil grade or NASA parts are required to support the structure and also environmentally control their storage at 70 degrees, +/- 2, and 50% humidity +/- 2. We found the rings thrown in a pile in a shed without doors. See what small mindedness and greed get you, and cost others?

Raise the bar and quit thinking small even if you are right now, because businesses invest in the future not in the past dumb dumbs. I don't talk it, I live it. You might the wonder why I retired 11 years early:). It's your life and you alone are responsible for it. Clue...I didn't get here crying about the color of the sky, I created wings so that sky could lift and take me here, before the majority. Exchanging excuses for gratitude is the key. Just...get over yourselves, you're embarrassing to watch. We use less than 10% of our brains, it's possible to use more, it only requires believing. Yes toto, we gotta believe:) lol.
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Tring to provide finance options is ridiculous. You sound like a banker more like an Apple user.
Is like, i use to buy a BMW, but now if you want to buy a Lamborghini you can finance it.
WE DO NOT NEED A LAMBORGHINI. We want an updated product that is intended to replace the old Mac Pro.
The new Mac Pro are replacing the server types, not the old Mac PRO.
Why would i want to buy an 18 wheeler truck if I only need a car?
Why do we need to be forced to buy a Lamborghini when we only want to buy a BMW?

"We want an updated product that is intended to replace the old Mac Pro." You actually mean, I don't want to improve or grow, and I'm whining cause Apple is pushing that possibility at me. It's not an 18 wheeler, it's just a car with a better engine and better options. If you want the same ole', buy the same ole. This ain't your grandmas Buick.

Edit: I can relate though. When Apple blacklisted my 9,1 iMac I was pissed, until I realized that Apple was just moving forward in tech. So I ordered a new iMac, and OMFG, I felt like a third grade school girl whining about my poor antiquated iMac. This new one just obliterates it. Am I crying now. Actually I'm singing it's praises and being very grateful for their push. Thank you Apple... Enough said.
 
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