Lost TV show (Season 6) -- includes spoilers on show nights

[Knowlege Bomb]

Jack answered this. He said he didn't believe Jacob would want Desmond there unless he would be able to help him so he didn't believe MIB was right about Desmond being able to destroy the island. He had faith that whatever Desmond did down there, it was going to be necessary for them to come out on top (and it was).

Okay, so ultimately it was necessary for him to go down there to revert the MiB to mortal status. That's perfectly clear but they didn't know that so it was a lucky guess?

I apologize if I'm missing something obvious. I only got to watch it once and my girlfriend was trying to get caught up enough to understand what was going on.

 

[abijnk]

I don't think "cork" is the right word for what we saw in the finale. I think people are using it because of Jacob's speech earlier in the season about the island being a cork. That stone was more of a "plug" that was preventing the liquid/light from falling through that hole in the pool. When it was unplugged, it all drained out (to who knows where) and there was just darkness. No water. No light.

Oooh, that's a much better way to think of it.

Okay, so ultimately it was necessary for him to go down there to revert the MiB to mortal status. That's perfectly clear but they didn't know that so it was a lucky guess?

I apologize if I'm missing something obvious. I only got to watch it once and my girlfriend was trying to get caught up enough to understand what was going on.

It was a complete toss up, or "lucky guess" as you put it. Neither jack nor Flocke knew what would happen, but they knew it had to be Desmond. I believe Jack said something to the effect that he thought Desmond might actually be a weapon.

 

[Peace]

Okay, so ultimately it was necessary for him to go down there to revert the MiB to mortal status. That's perfectly clear but they didn't know that so it was a lucky guess?

I apologize if I'm missing something obvious. I only got to watch it once and my girlfriend was trying to get caught up enough to understand what was going on.

Well the only way to kill someone who is immortal is to make them mortal again. Which Jack figured out I believe.

Also I now realize there were actual survivors on the island.

As the credits rolled by you see this small "table" made up of various stuff. Not sure what it means. Whether or not it was just a scene but this is Lost so.

 

[abijnk]

Which Jack figured out I believe.

Accidentally, yes.

 

[Knowlege Bomb]

Speaking of Locke's body one, on of my favorite lines from the finale was the line where Jack says something to the effect of "You disrespect his memory by wearing his face" or something similar. It really showed Jack's relationship to Locke well.

That was a great line. Is it strange that I felt kind of bad for Ol' Smokie when Jack said that to him?

I believe Jack said something to the effect that he thought Desmond might actually be a weapon.

I remember hearing that as well. All the more reason for me to wonder why they would send him down there.

 

[abijnk]

I remember hearing that as well. All the more reason for me to wonder why they would send him down there.

Not at all... This is the reasoning Jack gave (to Hurley, I think) for sending him down there.

Gah, I need a transcript of the show!

EDIT:
This is what Lostpedia says: "Sawyer asks Jack how he is going to kill Locke. Jack says it has to do with Desmond, that he thinks Jacob brought him back not as bait but as a weapon."

 

[Unspeaked]

Oooh, that's a much better way to think of it.

Thanks! That thought hit me when I was thinking of the finale before going to bed last night. It seemed much more like a sink and drain (to put it simply) than a cork and bottle.

It was a complete toss up, or "lucky guess" as you put it. Neither jack nor Flocke knew what would happen, but they knew it had to be Desmond. I believe Jack said something to the effect that he thought Desmond might actually be a weapon.

I like to think of it as another example of Jack's transformation into a man of faith. He finished his life with so much faith in Jacob and the island that he was willing to risk everything because he knew it was all happening for a reason.

 

[abijnk]

I like to think of it as another example of Jack's transformation into a man of faith. He finished his life with so much faith in Jacob and the island that he was willing to risk everything because he knew it was all happening for a reason.

Completely agree.

 

[Lyle]

In the "flash-sideways", or limbo as we've come to discover, contact with certain people/things allows these "souls" to regain their memories. OK, fine. But Ben did lots of really bad things, especially to Alex. Won't her memories of Ben be some good (she was her adoptive father in the original time line after all) and really horrible (he basically let Keamy kill her)? How does he find redemption there?

You're right to be wondering about this. As of the end of the finale, he apparently is not yet ready to join the others, which suggests (to me, anyways) that unlike them he's still trying to make peace with his life and "let go".

By bringing Locke's body back to the island, the Man in Black found a "loophole" and was able to kill Jacob. Well, didn't he take over Christian Shepherd's body too?

Yes...

And why wasn't his taking over of Christian Shepherd's body sufficient to create this Jacob-killing "loophole"? There was nothing special about Locke in season 1-5... even when he became the leader of the Others, he wasn't granted any special status like Richard Alpert. So what made Locke so special that his body allowed MIB to create a Jacob-killing loophole and not any other?

The rule was that the MiB couldn't kill Jacob (or any of the candidates) directly. The loophole that the MiB realized was that he could try to convince someone else to do his dirty work. We saw him try this with Richard, but Richard may not have been the first person.

I think the key was that by impersonating a resurrected Locke, the MiB was able to convince someone else (Ben) to kill Jacob. This was someone that they knew and trusted, maybe even feared. So your question is, could MiB appearing as Christian have convinced one of them to kill Jacob off even sooner? Was that maybe what he had in mind for Claire when he brought her under his wing?

 

[Knowlege Bomb]

Not at all... This is the reasoning Jack gave (to Hurley, I think) for sending him down there.

Gah, I need a transcript of the show!

I'll certainly be watching it again sometime this week. Maybe I'll get a firmer grasp on how it was meant to be understood. Or I can, in the spirit of the past five seasons, suspend disbelief and enjoy it for what it is without asking questions that won't be answered.

All that aside, I was and still am completely content with the way they chose to end it. I had to be up early this morning so I decided to DVR JK with the alternate endings but I really can't think of any other way I would have preferred.

 

[chrmjenkins]

Desmond wasn't the weapon. He was the safety. Neither fate was ensured by his actions; it was still up to Jack and MiB to determine the outcome.

I stopped watching lost at the end of season two when I realized that the plot was going nowhere.

I am so glad i did, hours of my life saved from the peril of trying to figure out what the hell the writers meant, while the writers themselves laughed themselves silly thinking about the dumb masses wasting their time with this stupid show.

How it should have ended, (season should have been over in season 2)

Little black boy is Jesus and cannot die, his presence creates a singularity vortex in space and time where everything is screwed up. So quit trying to make sense of anything.

Jack and Kate get married by Jesus.

The Numbers are the magic sequence that controls DNA sequencing and life itself. These special numbers are keeping the planet's electromagnetic stasis, when they are no longer entered, the planet ends its existance leaving only Jesus floating in space to begin a new world again.

WOW. This is amazing! What are you doing wasting your time on an internet forum?! You should go become a writer. Now. Seriously, don't waste your time here.

 

[stonyc]

There was no resolution for Ben, not yet. That's why he told Hurley he was going to stay outside for a while. For all the reasons you listed and more Ben was not ready to move on. It was supposed to be unsatisfying because he hadn't reached his "peace" yet.

I guess the question I had was how was he -ever- going to find his peace, then? Given his antagonistic (at times) with Alex and his stealing/raising Alex as his own daughter, how would he ever find peace with Rousseau as well?

They weren't the biggest of characters, so I'm guessing that, like Ethan, they had important parts in the limbo area, but weren't dealt with because of their relative insignificance. However, these moments of realizations started out, for each character, slowly, with little remembrances. When Rousseau is in the kitchen with Ben you get the feeling that he (and maybe she) is having a sort of deja vu, for lack of a better word.

I guess this is what bothers me on the whole about Lost... they introduce all of these wonderful and amazing characters and ideas, and pose all sorts of interesting question, and they (the writers) just drop them when it's convenient to do so.

Put simply, in my opinion, the energy of the cork is separate from the energy that was being corked.

That explanation is as good as any since we have no idea what that energy is and were given no answers as to its nature.

The loophole was not that MiB was taking over Locke's body. The fact that he was appearing as Locke was almost incidental. The loophole was getting Ben (i.e. someone other than MiB himself) to kill Jacob. Wearing Locke's body merely facilitated this.

Speaking of Locke's body one, on of my favorite lines from the finale was the line where Jack says something to the effect of "You disrespect his memory by wearing his face" or something similar. It really showed Jack's relationship to Locke well.

I think this "loophole" was one of the weakest plot points, in my opinion. Why couldn't Smokey use Christian Shepherd's image to manipulate Jack into killing Jacob? How couldn't this same exact loophole not have been tried ad nauseam(sp?) over the countless centuries Smokey was trying to kill Jacob? How was it that Smokey only learned/exploited this loophole just recently? This tactic could have been used to test every single character in the show (they were all flawed, remember?)... this could have been a major undercurrent of the show, but it seemed like the writers knew they had to come up with something that fit within a year or two of writing, and this was the best they could come up with?

Again, I think my main complaint is that the writers wove such a rich history, characters, etc. and set up such a great back story, only to throw things away when it seemed like they couldn't use or explain something/someone anymore.

 

[stonyc]

You're right to be wondering about this. As of the end of the finale, he apparently is not yet ready to join the others, which suggests (to me, anyways) that unlike them he's still trying to make peace with his life and "let go".

Right, I get that... but referencing my response to abjink... how could he -ever- find peace?

The rule was that the MiB couldn't kill Jacob (or any of the candidates) directly. The loophole that the MiB realized was that he could try to convince someone else to do his dirty work. We saw him try this with Richard, but Richard may not have been the first person.

I think the key was that by impersonating a resurrected Locke, the MiB was able to convince someone else (Ben) to kill Jacob. This was someone that they knew and trusted, maybe even feared. So your question is, could MiB appearing as Christian have convinced one of them to kill Jacob off even sooner? Was that maybe what he had in mind for Claire when he brought her under his wing?

That's true, I had forgotten that he had tried to get Richard to kill Jacob.

So, we can say then that he had been trying to indirectly kill Jacob for a long time, and we can assume then repeatedly. That answers that question for me sufficiently, thanks.

 

[abijnk]

I guess the question I had was how was he -ever- going to find his peace, then? Given his antagonistic (at times) with Alex and his stealing/raising Alex as his own daughter, how would he ever find peace with Rousseau as well?

It's an intriguing thing to think about, for sure. I'm not sure that anyone but Ben could answer that question.

I guess this is what bothers me on the whole about Lost... they introduce all of these wonderful and amazing characters and ideas, and pose all sorts of interesting question, and they (the writers) just drop them when it's convenient to do so.

I understand what you are saying, but I think in this particular case it came down to nothing more than what they did and didn't have time for. They could have tried to reconcile every single person we had some sort of extended contact with, but then it would have been cumbersome and l-o-n-g. I would have like some resolution with those characters as well, but I understand the choice to just deal with those who were most prevalent throughout the series.

I think this "loophole" was one of the weakest plot points, in my opinion. Why couldn't Smokey use Christian Shepherd's image to manipulate Jack into killing Jacob? How couldn't this same exact loophole not have been tried ad nauseam(sp?) over the countless centuries Smokey was trying to kill Jacob? How was it that Smokey only learned/exploited this loophole just recently? This tactic could have been used to test every single character in the show (they were all flawed, remember?)... this could have been a major undercurrent of the show, but it seemed like the writers knew they had to come up with something that fit within a year or two of writing, and this was the best they could come up with?

I think those are the kinds of questions that just go to far, to be frank. I can give you one good reason for all of them: because then we wouldn't have had a show. Some things just are.

EDIT: Lyle's answer is much better.

 

[chrmjenkins]

I think this "loophole" was one of the weakest plot points, in my opinion. Why couldn't Smokey use Christian Shepherd's image to manipulate Jack into killing Jacob? How couldn't this same exact loophole not have been tried ad nauseam(sp?) over the countless centuries Smokey was trying to kill Jacob? How was it that Smokey only learned/exploited this loophole just recently? This tactic could have been used to test every single character in the show (they were all flawed, remember?)... this could have been a major undercurrent of the show, but it seemed like the writers knew they had to come up with something that fit within a year or two of writing, and this was the best they could come up with?

Again, I think my main complaint is that the writers wove such a rich history, characters, etc. and set up such a great back story, only to throw things away when it seemed like they couldn't use or explain something/someone anymore.

The difficulty of this loophole was that Jacob had to willingly expose himself to danger. He didn't really do that (with few exceptions) until he started recruiting his candidates, and the MiB preyed on the most vulnerable person, Ben. Ben no longer had an attachment to any one person. His attachment was to the island (and power on it). He said himself that he was jealous of Locke's power, and that's why he killed him. Thus, at that point not knowing it wasn't Locke, he'd be very influenced by that promise of power.

Trying to convince Jack to do the same (or any other person for that matter) seems like much less of a sure bet. Failing to convince one may end up turning all against him (Richard). He chose carefully.

 

[Unspeaked]

I think this "loophole" was one of the weakest plot points, in my opinion. Why couldn't Smokey use Christian Shepherd's image to manipulate Jack into killing Jacob? How couldn't this same exact loophole not have been tried ad nauseam(sp?) over the countless centuries Smokey was trying to kill Jacob? How was it that Smokey only learned/exploited this loophole just recently? This tactic could have been used to test every single character in the show (they were all flawed, remember?)... this could have been a major undercurrent of the show, but it seemed like the writers knew they had to come up with something that fit within a year or two of writing, and this was the best they could come up with?

Oddly enough, as skeptical as I am about some of this stuff, I don't have a problem with the loophole.

The recent few years on the island aside, it doesn't look like a ton of people make their way there so there aren't that many people for MIB to manipulate.

Further - and this is the most important part for me - there's not many people who would have killed Jacob, I think. Ben was the perfect choice. Jack wouldn't have just been like, "Oh, my dead Dad has reanimated himself and tells me to kill this guy I don't know. Where do I sign up?" Jacob was a stranger to most of these people and would you just kill a stranger because someone you know - who died themselves - told you told to?

Ben/Locke was perfect people Ben already had all this frustration and anger at Jacob for not giving him the respect and attention he thought he deserved and Locke was someone who he knew was supposed to be special and who the island loved (it allowed him to walk - is it really that far fetched to think it would bring him back to life?). Those two had a dynamic that was perfect for MIB's loophole plans and one that I doubt had presented itself before, even if he had thought of the plan hundreds of years ago (we were never given a time-table for when that "I found a loophole" conversion between MIB and Jacob took place. It may have been within days of him turning into the smoke monster and he spent centuries searching for the right pair of people to use as pawns).

 

[stonyc]

The rule was that the MiB couldn't kill Jacob (or any of the candidates) directly. The loophole that the MiB realized was that he could try to convince someone else to do his dirty work. We saw him try this with Richard, but Richard may not have been the first person.

I think the key was that by impersonating a resurrected Locke, the MiB was able to convince someone else (Ben) to kill Jacob. This was someone that they knew and trusted, maybe even feared. So your question is, could MiB appearing as Christian have convinced one of them to kill Jacob off even sooner? Was that maybe what he had in mind for Claire when he brought her under his wing?

Oh, follow-up question then...

How is it that talking to Smokey makes it impossible for a third-party to kill him (re: Sayid and Dogen's dagger)... but Ben is able to kill Jacob?

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

How is it that talking to Smokey makes it impossible for a third-party to kill him (re: Sayid and Dogen's dagger)... but Ben is able to kill Jacob?

I think that's because Jacob is just a regular person (for the most part) and the smoke monster is a smoke monster. It's hard to stab smoke.

 

[Surely]

As the credits rolled by you see this small "table" made up of various stuff. Not sure what it means. Whether or not it was just a scene but this is Lost so.

They showed that scene to communicate to us that the Island existed before the crash, and it will continue to exist after the crash. It's still there.

 

[abijnk]

Does anyone remember seeing how Ben got out from under the tree that fell on him?

 

[Unspeaked]

They showed that scene to communicate to us that the Island existed before the crash, and it will continue to exist after the crash. It's still there.

Speaking of which, anyone else think that when ABC is struggling for ratings in a few years they might get Jorge Garcia and Michael Emerson under contract and do a little spin-off series with the post-Jacob years? I could see that...

 

[chrmjenkins]

Oh, follow-up question then...

How is it that talking to Smokey makes it impossible for a third-party to kill him (re: Sayid and Dogen's dagger)... but Ben is able to kill Jacob?

I'd say it has to do with his form. Perhaps it simply means that if MiB talks to you, it means he acknowledges you (and the potential danger) and somehow modifies his form.

However, if you remember, Sayid strikes him with the knife prior to him speaking after leaving the temple. The blow would not have been a killing blow necessarily (missed his heart), and perhaps that's the reason he was ok. It's also possible that that is a myth. Do we ever hear from Jacob that that's a reliable way to kill him?

 

[Unspeaked]

Do we ever hear from Jacob that that's a reliable way to kill him?

No, we didn't.

I took the whole "If he speaks, you're too late" to mean if he begins talking to you, he's going to sway you to his way of thinking so it'll be too late to kill him.

 

[chrmjenkins]

No, we didn't.

I took the whole "If he speaks, you're too late" to mean if he begins talking to you, he's going to sway you to his way of thinking so it'll be too late to kill him.

That seems likely, however there is something to be said for the knife meeting flesh and physical resistance whereas bullets go directly through him.

 

[zoetropeuk]

Flash forward ????

I want to know how and Penny and Charlie were flashed forward as well as sideways. Is it possible that Flash Forward is the real ending to Lost and that Penny and Charlie will be the ones to reveal all !

Matt