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Right, comparable Mac Pro starts at 20k+
Intel still can have more memory if needed, so depends on use case what is better.
No. Comparable Mac Pro starts at $14,199 (28 cores, 96GB RAM (no 64GB option), 1TB drive). The prices for the Mac Pro are still even more ridiculous than when it launched 3 years ago. Apple hasn't dropped the price a penny after 3 years.

This article is comparing CPU, not GPU.

Again, this article is about comparing the CPUs...not the chassis and expandability and use cases.
 
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How so?



No. This is Apple offering a great new choice. The Mac Pro isn't suddenly bad.
it is clear there was too big of a jump in price from iMac/Mac Mini to Mac Pro. Mac Studio will sit in between when the fully fledged Mac Pro comes out later this year.
 
That's because "doing something about it" would be an unthinkable step for Apple: lower their prices sigfnificantly. Successful and supported game systems always were financially attractive to a wide audience. Furthermore, by leaving x86 they clearly prioritized power efficiency and performance over compatibility with native Windows. They don't want to be a AAA gaming platform. That's why they don't offer the combination of cores you suggested. So, where is the incentive for AAA developers? My advice: Build a windows PC to go along with that Mac Studio. That's what I will do.
Lower their prices? Many gamers pay thousand of dollars for GPU upgrades and gaming laptops sale pretty well. In fact, Apple is only laptop brand that does not have gaming line of machines. There is a lot of money in the gaming industry. If Apple can equip a 14inch MBP with M1 Pro/Max version designed specifically for gaming and throw some millions to the big developers to release their most popular titles for Apple Silicon, then, the industry, including smaller developers would follow. Mac should not be the top gaming platform for AAA games, but it should be a decent platform, so that people dont decide to go for Windows machine only because the Mac is crappy for any gaming activity. Many many potential buyers are pushed away from the Mac just because you cant play the games that your friends play on their PCs.
 
it is clear there was too big of a jump in price from iMac/Mac Mini to Mac Pro. Mac Studio will sit in between when the fully fledged Mac Pro comes out later this year.

The Wife said 'Don't cry for the Mac Pro owners. They likely burn through money like flash paper. They will survive.' Sure, they will, but I am thinking of the 'little guy' who ponied up HUGE CASH (for them) and now find out they could have waited x amount of time and be farther ahead. The Studio isn't a Mac Pro replacement, but for the cost, and performance, I'm sure a few new Mac Pro owners are seeing red in more ways than one. But such is the market. You never know what can happen until it's happened.
 
I was on one of the original groups of Apple grid computing to interconnect several boxes to increase total compute power. This device has 10gb Ethernet and Thunderbolt for its interconnect ports. If the grid software has been updated to include Apple silicon, a server farm could offer time-slice services to do compute heavy tasks, or a local grid in an office could do near real time compute tasks. But real time is still limited to big iron above some limit. That limit decreased substantially yesterday.
 
Not suddenly bad, but suddenly really much more expensive.

I've never really understood that kind of complaint, TBH.

Like, it was inevitable that the Mac Pro's components would eventually look pricey. They were very high-end, and they're also two and a half years old now. You only get that kind of machine if you really need that amount of horsepower ASAP.

it is clear there was too big of a jump in price from iMac/Mac Mini to Mac Pro. Mac Studio will sit in between when the fully fledged Mac Pro comes out later this year.

Yup.
 
Lower their prices? Many gamers pay thousand of dollars for GPU upgrades and gaming laptops sale pretty well. In fact, Apple is only laptop brand that does not have gaming line of machines. There is a lot of money in the gaming industry. If Apple can equip a 14inch MBP with M1 Pro/Max version designed specifically for gaming and throw some millions to the big developers to release their most popular titles for Apple Silicon, then, the industry, including smaller developers would follow. Mac should not be the top gaming platform for AAA games, but it should be a decent platform, so that people dont decide to go for Windows machine only because the Mac is crappy for any gaming activity. Many many potential buyers are pushed away from the Mac just because you cant play the games that your friends play on their PCs.

The "code games for M1" debates are always the same. The delusional side seems to believe that the primary programmer motivation is about the power of the chips. It's not. It's about the money. Programmer can code for the relative tiny market that is ALL MACs... or- per the delusion- they can code for the much tinier slice of that market to code for those with Macs with Silicon (which, I would guess is still dwarfed by the installed Intel-based Macs in operation).

OR, they can code from the relatively GIGANTIC market that is Windows. Whether that means they are coding for weaker or stronger chips, weaker or stronger GPUs, chips that can run on a watch battery vs. chips that need a personal nuclear reactor, doesn't matter so much. Where is the money? Where is the money? Where is the money?

In one market you have giant programming studios being paid huge amounts of money to code for specific platforms. The leaders of that space pour huge money into motivating the programming of big games for their side. In the other corner, you have a much richer company that- to the best of my knowledge- has never purchased a gaming studio... even one to drive games for their most lucrative cash cow (which is not the Mac).

Programmers who don't want/need to get paid (or paid relatively much) may in fact be attracted to prioritizing coding for Apple Silicon. Those who want to make as much money as possible for their work simply go where they will get paid the most money. If classic Amiga, Atari, Commodore or Radio Shack came back to life and offered them the most money to code for 68000 or 6502, etc, you'd see "exclusives" coming out for ancient chips less powerful than the one powering a Home Pod.

All logical or illogical issues/questions start here: what yields the most profit? Apple could "own" the gaming space by taking a bigger chunk of idle cash and buying up Studios as we see Apple competitors doing on a regular basis. They do not. In lieu of that approach, there's simply not enough Apple Mac owners to create greater motivation to code for Silicon vs. coding for Windows. Where you get exceptions is where the motivation strays from the most fundamental one: profit potential.

I don't foresee this changing unless Silicon overtakes Windows PCs so that it is THE bigger market and/or Apple decides to part with some of the cash hoard in the vault to buy a good number of Studios to get "big" games written exclusively for Silicon.

This idea that because Apple (marketing) says these are the most powerful chips ever made doesn't automatically translate to the world wanting to code on them for upwards of a year+ to then sell only a fraction of those who happen to own those specific Macs (and would probably be griping about the price unless it is about iPhone app pricing of $5 or less in general).

Where is the money? Where is the money? Where is the money? If you can show big game programmers a better answer to that question, they will pour into coding for Silicon. Else, one needs Apple to step up (with cash) or wait for Silicon "PCs" to become more numerous than Windows PCs.
 
I've never really understood that kind of complaint, TBH.

Like, it was inevitable that the Mac Pro's components would eventually look pricey. They were very high-end, and they're also two and a half years old now. You only get that kind of machine if you really need that amount of horsepower ASAP.

Apple, decades ago now(?) said they weren't afraid of cannibalizing part of their market with another product. I think people need to wait for the in-depth benchmarks on the Ultra and see what it's really capable of. I remember people comparing the high end Core chips to the Xeon and finding that the former was faster, but often, when it came to heavy lifting, was lagging the later. Chips can be tailored, so to speak, to outperform in one area, and under-perform in another, or several. The Studio, and the Ultra are not Mac Pro replacements, but it raises the bar significant;y for the eventual Mac Pro replacement/upgrade. I'm sure there are 'cash rich' pro users that already have orders for the Studio, and will use them to bridge into the new Mac Pro, and discard them when they get them. Such is the business. For me, I have the 'original' Mac Pro, and would love to add a trash can to the collection, but wonder what the future holds.

But 80% faster? 40% faster? People aren't going to lose their heads, or jobs, but it will be interesting, seeing what's next.
 
Mac Studio with M1 Ultra is $4k. It has 4 TB4 ports. If one can chain devices using TB4 2 between a single lane of units, or 1 between 3 lanes of units, a grid can be formed to do heavy compute tasks and output can be via 10gb Ethernet port processing. Not sure if existing grid software supports such schemes but the hardware exists. 24 units is only $96k, which sounds like a lot until you have purchased advanced hardware and software from other vendors.

Our most recent propellant mixer was $250k and it produces about $100k a day in revenue with about 70% profit margin. Equipment produces revenue.
 
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The Wife said 'Don't cry for the Mac Pro owners. They likely burn through money like flash paper. They will survive.' Sure, they will, but I am thinking of the 'little guy' who ponied up HUGE CASH (for them) and now find out they could have waited x amount of time and be farther ahead. The Studio isn't a Mac Pro replacement, but for the cost, and performance, I'm sure a few new Mac Pro owners are seeing red in more ways than one. But such is the market. You never know what can happen until it's happened.
Not sure I follow , if I was in the market for a Pro machine , I am sure was aware of the transition Apple CEO stated on stage , and I would know what to expect ,i.e amazing new AS machines, as the leaks about what CPUs are in the pipeline are aplenty anyone who just bought a MacPro last month with an Intel CPU is either in need for such machine or really doesn't really care much about what will happen in the future , thus making its " seeing red" not a reality , because if did any research , he would know what will happen in the near future.
 
Mac Studio with M1 Ultra is $4k. It has 4 TB4 ports. If one can chain devices using TB4 2 between a single lane of units, or 1 between 3 lanes of units, a grid can be formed to do heavy compute tasks and output can be via 10gb Ethernet post processing. Not sure if existing grid software supports such schemes but the hardware exists. 24 units is only $96k, which sounds like a lot until you have purchased advanced hardware and software from other vendors.

And people have made clusters with rather anemic systems. It's more in the number than the individual member nodes.
 
I would also add that it seems a bit unfair to solder 2 M1 chips together and call it a new, single chip with its own branded name... AND then compare it to a single CPU from another manufacturer. Even if Apple didn't make the benchmark comparison (to its own CPU family as well as other manufacturers), it still seems slight of hand.

AMD does this. And what difference does it make? It only counts if the wires that connect the cores are fabricated during wafer production and not after? That’s a pretty weird distinction to make.
 
Not sure I follow , if I was in the market for a Pro machine , I am sure was aware of the transition Apple CEO stated on stage , and I would know what to expect ,i.e amazing new AS machines, as the leaks about what CPUs are in the pipeline are aplenty anyone who just bought a MacPro last month with an Intel CPU is either in need for such machine or really doesn't really care much about what will happen in the future , thus making its " seeing red" not a reality , because if did any research , he would know what will happen in the near future.

My thoughts were running along with the idea that studio 'a' needs 350 new systems. They go to Apple and ask what's coming soon. Would Apple tell them? If Apple would, would they tell the 'little guy' looking for more muscle? Sure, new products come out often-ish, but to swamp the Mac Pro so thoroughly, Apple looks rather 'brave'? Hmm... The Studio seems to be a very capable and fast machine, with the Ultra. Too capable and too fast? *shrug*
 
Lower their prices? Many gamers pay thousand of dollars for GPU upgrades and gaming laptops sale pretty well. In fact, Apple is only laptop brand that does not have gaming line of machines. There is a lot of money in the gaming industry. If Apple can equip a 14inch MBP with M1 Pro/Max version designed specifically for gaming and throw some millions to the big developers to release their most popular titles for Apple Silicon, then, the industry, including smaller developers would follow. Mac should not be the top gaming platform for AAA games, but it should be a decent platform, so that people dont decide to go for Windows machine only because the Mac is crappy for any gaming activity. Many many potential buyers are pushed away from the Mac just because you cant play the games that your friends play on their PCs.

The only gamers that spend thousands on GPU upgrades are the absolute diehard gamers, those with enough cash to spend it, and very much the same people who upgrade/change their whole gaming computer every 1-2 years so they can get the absolute latest technology and bragging rights. I was one of those people back in the 90s and single and it's a lot of fun...but it's a lot of cash. :)

You can buy many, many Wintel desktop machines for $2100-$2500 that will have a very recent 16-core Intel chip, 32GB RAM, a great GPU for gaming (such as NVIDIA® GeForce RTX 3080), and very fast 1TB nvme drive. These machines would last 3+ years for great gaming performance for the vast majority of recent-titled games. If you wanted to upgrade the machine after 3 years, you could plunk down anywhere from $400-$1000 for a new GPU depending on exactly how this will affect your particular games' performance. The Wintel prices, unlike Apple, go on sale all the time (Presidents Day, Back To School, Christmas season, etc.) so your Wintel desktop price point could easily drop a decent amount (look how Apple charges the same price today for Mac Pro as it did 3 years ago for the exact same specs, 27" iMac and Mini haven't been updated or price drop in almost 2 years).

I think using (or even buying) "gaming laptops" is ridiculously expensive not to mention playing on a 15" screen.

As many said, Apple has never been into gaming and likely never will. I agree that there is a lot of money to be made in gaming and am puzzled why Apple doesn't even bother (or at least attempt at some marketing and partnering with a few titles on specific machines). Maybe Apple's release cycle is (purposely) too slow to keep up with gaming technologies. Maybe Apple wants to concentrate more on the overall user experience. Maybe Apple wants to continually chase the "make it smaller!" attitude that frankly, a lot of us don't care about (especially for desktops). Maybe it's a combination of all the above. In my eyes, Apple doesn't need to making a gaming computer or target high end gamers. It would be nice if Apple gave some thought to make some comparable Macs that could suffice to the average person playing some games. With average Mac desktops (16GB, 1TB) easily hovering over $2000, they should be powerful enough for an average kid playing an average game.
 
Mac Studio with M1 Ultra is $4k. It has 4 TB4 ports. If one can chain devices using TB4 2 between a single lane of units, or 1 between 3 lanes of units, a grid can be formed to do heavy compute tasks and output can be via 10gb Ethernet port processing. Not sure if existing grid software supports such schemes but the hardware exists. 24 units is only $96k, which sounds like a lot until you have purchased advanced hardware and software from other vendors.

Our most recent propellant mixer was $250k and it produces about $100k a day in revenue with about 70% profit margin. Equipment produces revenue.
Are you talking about theoretical grid computing or are you actually currently doing it with prior Macs? If you are doing it, I'd love to hear more about the details, hardware, config, software titles, how the overall process works, etc.
 
I am going to chime in here.

Apps I use max out the GPU. The more I add into the 3D model the more RAM it uses plus FPS drop [geometry and textures]. This is gaming engine software.
My 3080ti is already maxed in RAM on my PC, and I am totally over the heat and noise from it.

It simply is insane what apps can use these days in terms of resources and power, and personally I never want my computer to restrict my work in any way.
We get paid a lot of money to be able to deliver good quality design work, quickly. This machine is still actually less than the app subscriptions used on it, believe it or not.

I actually believe the studio is well priced for what it delivers [or at least what I expect it to].
For the kind of 3D rendering Vectorworks does, the top-of-line Ultra can be maxed out. VW eats all available memory and gobbles GPUs as snacks.

I didn't order the fully tricked-out Ultra, but I have one coming in April (it looks like they sold out March 18 pretty quick. My workflow will be faster and smoother. More work means more money. And yes, the software costs about the same as the system. I won't have to replace this for a while, and I can write it off tax-wise. Where is negative?
 
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Apple, decades ago now(?) said they weren't afraid of cannibalizing part of their market with another product.

Right.

I think people need to wait for the in-depth benchmarks on the Ultra and see what it's really capable of. I remember people comparing the high end Core chips to the Xeon and finding that the former was faster, but often, when it came to heavy lifting, was lagging the later. Chips can be tailored, so to speak, to outperform in one area, and under-perform in another, or several.

Exactly.

Later this year, we'll almost certainly get M2 Macs. And there will be some people who are surprised that the M2 will be faster in a lot of tasks than the M1 Ultra. After all, each individual core in the M1 Ultra runs at the same clock speed as in the M1. So even if Apple does nothing else but upgrade Firestorm/Icestorm to Avalanche/Blizzard (A15) and increase the clock speed from 3.2 to 3.4 GHz (as an alleged benchmark suggests), a ton of tasks that aren't parallelized, including everyday stuff like browsing the web will be ~10% faster. Such is life.

For the same reason, Intel iMacs that were released after the iMac Pro were faster than the iMac Pro in plenty of areas, despite being a lot cheaper.

The Studio, and the Ultra are not Mac Pro replacements, but it raises the bar significant;y for the eventual Mac Pro replacement/upgrade.

Indeed.

I'm sure there are 'cash rich' pro users that already have orders for the Studio, and will use them to bridge into the new Mac Pro, and discard them when they get them. Such is the business.

It doesn't even require being rich, just having a good relations with a leasing firm. Rotate the Mac, but only for a single year. Swap for a newer one. Rinse, repeat.

For me, I have the 'original' Mac Pro, and would love to add a trash can to the collection, but wonder what the future holds.

But 80% faster? 40% faster? People aren't going to lose their heads, or jobs, but it will be interesting, seeing what's next.

Yes. But I imagine the main selling point of the new Mac Pro won't be performance; it'll be flexibility. It'll presumably offer internal expansion (how exactly that works we have yet to see, since all existing ARM Macs have the GPU and RAM on-package). Perhaps they'll do something 1990s-like and put the entire SoC on a card, and you can swap in additional M1 Ultras if you want, with a fancy orchestrator on the mainboard.

The existence of the Mac Studio makes the Mac Pro even more niche than it was in 2019, but unlike with the trash can, they realized they cannot get away with not having a Mac Pro-like tower at all, this time.
 
Equipment produces revenue.
Excellent quote. This is what drives those of us who buy tools to do our jobs crazy. If someone sitting at a desk generates $500,000 in revenue per year, a $24,000 system with a three year life is really only $8000 a year. Compared to salaries and all the other other overhead, important tools like this are just normal, expected, small expenses.

So many posters here are buying systems from their personal, small savings acccounts. To them $24,000 sounds ridiculous. I understand, but they should buy a cheaper system.

Personally I think this is an excellent computer design for a large number of power users. I’ve had my share of Mac Pro towers over the years, and still end up with lots of external devices connected with cables - these all outlast the towers anyway. So I see no issue with stripping the mid-range Pro computer down to basics and providing a bunch of fast IO ports for connectivity instead
 
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When the Apple Silicon version of the Mac Pro ships, I really hope Apple really ups the RAM in these. The M1 Ultra in the new Mac Studio tops out 128 GB, and that's with unified memory with the GPU. The Intel Mac Pro tops out at that much just for GPU memory, plus an additional >10x that amount of regular RAM at 1.5 TB.
 
Equipment produces revenue.

No it does not. It is a cost. Now the actual cost of the equipment is simply maxed out by its price tag if you consider that there are no further costs to maintain it functioning as predicted. So the max cost may be a bit higher than the price tag.

What produces revenue is what you do and create of value.

Now some equipments enable you todo things that other don't or may enable you todo do things faster. But in the end of the day if you do none of those exclusive things or do not use the time savings to create more value you are actually increasing costs unnecessarily. So it becomes a luxury, not a necessity.
 
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The "code games for M1" debates are always the same. The delusional side seems to believe that the primary programmer motivation is about the power of the chips. It's not. It's about the money. Programmer can code for the relative tiny market that is ALL MACs... or- per the delusion- they can code for the much tinier slice of that market to code for those with Macs with Silicon (which, I would guess is still dwarfed by the installed Intel-based Macs in operation).

OR, they can code from the relatively GIGANTIC market that is Windows. Whether that means they are coding for weaker or stronger chips, weaker or stronger GPUs, chips that can run on a watch battery vs. chips that need a personal nuclear reactor, doesn't matter so much. Where is the money? Where is the money? Where is the money?

In one market you have giant programming studios being paid huge amounts of money to code for specific platforms. The leaders of that space pour huge money into motivating the programming of big games for their side. In the other corner, you have a much richer company that- to the best of my knowledge- has never purchased a gaming studio... even one to drive games for their most lucrative cash cow (which is not the Mac).

Programmers who don't want/need to get paid (or paid relatively much) may in fact be attracted to prioritizing coding for Apple Silicon. Those who want to make as much money as possible for their work simply go where they will get paid the most money. If classic Amiga, Atari, Commodore or Radio Shack came back to life and offered them the most money to code for 68000 or 6502, etc, you'd see "exclusives" coming out for ancient chips less powerful than the one powering a Home Pod.

All logical or illogical issues/questions start here: what yields the most profit? Apple could "own" the gaming space by taking a bigger chunk of idle cash and buying up Studios as we see Apple competitors doing on a regular basis. They do not. In lieu of that approach, there's simply not enough Apple Mac owners to create greater motivation to code for Silicon vs. coding for Windows. Where you get exceptions is where the motivation strays from the most fundamental one: profit potential.

I don't foresee this changing unless Silicon overtakes Windows PCs so that it is THE bigger market and/or Apple decides to part with some of the cash hoard in the vault to buy a good number of Studios to get "big" games written exclusively for Silicon.

This idea that because Apple (marketing) says these are the most powerful chips ever made doesn't automatically translate to the world wanting to code on them for upwards of a year+ to then sell only a fraction of those who happen to own those specific Macs (and would probably be griping about the price unless it is about iPhone app pricing of $5 or less in general).

Where is the money? Where is the money? Where is the money? If you can show big game programmers a better answer to that question, they will pour into coding for Silicon. Else, one needs Apple to step up (with cash) or wait for Silicon "PCs" to become more numerous than Windows PCs.
Performance hasn't been the reason for 15 years. It's all about money.
 
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