M2 fanless heat issue

[appleguy123]

M2 is 30W chip. It's tough getting 10-15W passively cooled, and much harder with 20W. If it were so easy, everyone would be doing passively cooled PC notebooks. Ice Lake has a TDP of 12-25W.

M2 MBA chassis is thinner than M1 MBA. There isn't some engineering trick Apple can pull out of a hat to make 20-30W disappear.

M2 MBP teardowns show the exact same heatsink/fan set up as before. Notebookcheck says "the cooling solution cannot utilize the full potential of the M2 chip."

Most importantly, there is the marketing angle. Apple removed the fan from the M1 MBA chassis to limit performance and we see throttling. M2 is a hotter chip in a thinner MBA chassis.

I’m interested in reading your link but it doesn’t seem to be clickable. I wouldn’t expect Apple to redesign the cooling system in the 13” MacBook Pro because it’s clearly just a design they’re coasting with to keep margins up.

The M2 chip is rarely running at 30W. The heat most real world workloads generate will probably be from a chip sucking 5-15W. The hardest task most users do on a processor (encoding video) is handled by a special media engine not present in the M1. I’m not an engineer, but I had to cool a lot of processors for my grad school thesis (to collect data for biology, not computer science). Do we have any idea what the internals of the new air look like? Sometimes they show them in marketing materials. If a large portion of the bottom casing is used as a heat sink, I don’t think this will be a real world problem even under heavy real world workflows.

I wouldn’t buy a MacBook Air over a MacBook Pro to game with AAA titles (why would I buy a Mac at all?), but I really doubt Apple designed the M2 chip and then designed the MacBook Air around it in a way that doesn’t perform optimally.

 

[JPack]

I’m interested in reading your link but it doesn’t seem to be clickable.

Apple MacBook Pro 13 2022 M2 Laptop Review – Debut for the new Apple M2

Notebookcheck reviews the updates 2022 Apple MacBook Pro 13 with the brand-new Apple M2 SoC and 16 GB RAM.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[yitwail]

M2 is 30W chip. It's tough getting 10-15W passively cooled, and much harder with 20W. If it were so easy, everyone would be doing passively cooled PC notebooks. Ice Lake has a TDP of 12-25W.

M2 MBA chassis is thinner than M1 MBA. There isn't some engineering trick Apple can pull out of a hat to make 20-30W disappear.

Since you mentioned notebookcheck, I used their tool to compare M2 & M1. You can see the results at this link:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-M1_14521_12937.247596.0.html

While M2 did use more power in their benchmarks, the difference is hardly as great as your post seems to suggest, and unlike the M2 MBP that uses the same thermal design as the M1 MBP, the M2 MBA has an exclusively fanless design different from the M1 MBA, and although its height is less than the maximum height of the M2 MBA, because M1 MBA tapers sharply towards the front, the average height isn't any greater than M1 MBA, so I think it premature to assume M2 MBA would have significantly more thermal issues than M1 MBA.

 

[Analog Kid]

Apple removed the fan from the M1 MBA chassis to limit performance

You keep repeating this over and over, which never once has made it any more true. They removed the fan because the MBA is a different type of machine than the MBP— it is optimized for size and weight. For the M1, it was remarkable how similar in performance the two were— it made the vestigial fan on the MBP seem senseless. Maybe there will be a noticeable performance difference with the M2, but that shouldn’t be a surprise— one is a Pro one is an Air.

 

[Analog Kid]

M2 MBP teardowns show the exact same heatsink/fan set up as before. Notebookcheck says "the cooling solution cannot utilize the full potential of the M2 chip."

I see that, but they don‘t fully justify that statement in the text as far as I can tell. I don’t seen any performance benchmark to support the statement— the only thing I can figure is they think because the power draw went down that the performance did. Maybe, but when you make a testable assertion like that it would be helpful to see it actually tested.

 

[Ponylover52]

You keep repeating this over and over, which never once has made it any more true. They removed the fan because the MBA is a different type of machine than the MBP— it is optimized for size and weight. For the M1, it was remarkable how similar in performance the two were— it made the vestigial fan on the MBP seem senseless. Maybe there will be a noticeable performance difference with the M2, but that shouldn’t be a surprise— one is a Pro one is an Air.

Exactly I think 98% of users will see no discernible difference, its why Apple merely refreshed the basic pro but didn’t spend time and energy redoing it. The same way the M1 iPad Air and Pro’s maintain the same level of performance that a MacBook Air maintains even though they are both thinner and more dense then a MBA. I do not foresee the M2 suddenly changing this, except maybe in smaller iPads they maintain the 8 core gpu version instead of 10 core version again all speculation.

 

[yitwail]

You keep repeating this over and over, which never once has made it any more true. They removed the fan because the MBA is a different type of machine than the MBP— it is optimized for size and weight.

Putting it another way, it's intended for users who don't required sustained performance, like encoding large video files for instance.

 

[JPack]

Since you mentioned notebookcheck, I used their tool to compare M2 & M1. You can see the results at this link:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-M1_14521_12937.247596.0.html

While M2 did use more power in their benchmarks, the difference is hardly as great as your post seems to suggest, and unlike the M2 MBP that uses the same thermal design as the M1 MBP, the M2 MBA has an exclusively fanless design different from the M1 MBA, and although its height is less than the maximum height of the M2 MBA, because M1 MBA tapers sharply towards the front, the average height isn't any greater than M1 MBA, so I think it premature to assume M2 MBA would have significantly more thermal issues than M1 MBA.

Notebookcheck benchmarks aren't complete, but it's clear from their testing the M2 chip draws up to 35W then drops to 30W due to throttling. Chips don't draw power and offer zero performance in return.

The thickest part of the chassis the same area where the logic board and heat spreader are. Since that area of the M2 MBA is thinner, there is no doubt thermal capacity will also be lower.

 

[JPack]

You keep repeating this over and over, which never once has made it any more true. They removed the fan because the MBA is a different type of machine than the MBP— it is optimized for size and weight. For the M1, it was remarkable how similar in performance the two were— it made the vestigial fan on the MBP seem senseless. Maybe there will be a noticeable performance difference with the M2, but that shouldn’t be a surprise— one is a Pro one is an Air.

So, before the M1, the MBA wasn't a different machine compared to MBP? Come on.

The M1 MBA throttles while the M1 MBP doesn't. The MBA chassis has always had a fan since day one.

 

[Trixs]

So, before the M1, the MBA wasn't a different machine compared to MBP? Come on.

The M1 MBA throttles while the M1 MBP doesn't. The MBA chassis has always had a fan since day one.

The MBA throttled a lot more when it still had a fan. That fan was prett much useless and it overheated all the time with the intel processors

 

[WindowsXPuser]

Aren't the cores of M2 still pretty similar to M1? You'd think most of the difference in heat output would be down to the increase in GPU cores on the MacBook Pro M2. We're looking at 10 GPU cores on the MacBook Pro M2 vs 7 to 8 GPU cores on the MacBook Air M1 and 8 to 10 GPU cores on the MacBook Air M2. The M2 chip also seems to run about 300MHz faster on the CPU cores, so there's that too. Either way, I don't think this'll be a problem until people start to push those GPU cores and even then it might only be a real issue on 10-core MacBook Airs.

Which brings another thing: Why on Earth would you buy Apple's thinnest laptop ever (slightly thinner than the MacBook 12" at the thickest point now!), with no fan and a "consumer-level" chip, for the purpose of running GPU intensive programs on it? Especially the 10 GPU core variant. Most typical "consumer" programs aren't particularly heavy on the GPU, outside of maybe iMovie or the games that run on Apple Silicon. Even then, those probably won't hit the GPU as hard as more "prosumer" or "professional" apps would. I just don't think it's something to worry about, being that it almost certainly won't be a problem outside of sustained, intensive activities and we've already got a cheaper "Pro" machine with a fan and the same chip in case you want to do those sustained, intensive activities.

 

[Analog Kid]

The M1 MBA throttles while the M1 MBP doesn't. The MBA chassis has always had a fan since day one.

By like 5 or 10% when running Cinebench in a loop? That’s not what an Air is for, and yet it holds its own just fine.

It’s always had a fan because it always needed one, and now it doesn’t.

Saying they removed the fan to cripple the machine is completely unfounded. They removed it because Jobs, and thus Apple, has always hated fans and is always looking for ways to do away with them or minimize their negative impacts. That’s what the Air is designed for, and they achieved it.

 

[jav6454]

So, before the M1, the MBA wasn't a different machine compared to MBP? Come on.

The M1 MBA throttles while the M1 MBP doesn't. The MBA chassis has always had a fan since day one.

Not the M1 MBA.

 

[JPack]

The MBA throttled a lot more when it still had a fan. That fan was prett much useless and it overheated all the time with the intel processors

So? That doesn't make a fan useless on the M1.

 

[JPack]

By like 5 or 10% when running Cinebench in a loop? That’s not what an Air is for, and yet it holds its own just fine.

It’s always had a fan because it always needed one, and now it doesn’t.

Saying they removed the fan to cripple the machine is completely unfounded. They removed it because Jobs, and thus Apple, has always hated fans and is always looking for ways to do away with them or minimize their negative impacts. That’s what the Air is designed for, and they achieved it.

MBA throttles in Final Cut Pro export. Would that be considered something the Air is "for"?

Are we seriously pulling up Jobs as an excuse? Jobs hated phablets and thought there should be only one product in each quadrant. He also said subscription-based music services were a bad idea. Tim Cook has been CEO for over a decade.

 

[Analog Kid]

MBA throttles in Final Cut Pro export. Would that be considered something the Air is "for"?

Are we seriously pulling up Jobs as an excuse? Jobs hated phablets and thought there should be only one product in each quadrant. He also said subscription-based music services were a bad idea. Tim Cook has been CEO for over a decade.

No, I’d say MacBook Pro is for Final Cut Pro exports. I’m curious if you have a link to how much of a difference it makes in export times though. I think the Air is about portability above all else.

No, I’m not pulling up Jobs as an excuse, just pointing out that Apple has been trying to eliminate fans since the very first Macintosh shipped— not because they wanted to limit performance, but because they simply see fans as a problem. The MacBook Air delivers on that vision with little to no performance hit for the things that people use MacBook Airs for. For machines designed for sustained performance they compromise and add a fan.

You still haven‘t demonstrated that the motivation for removing the fan was to cripple the machine as you have been repeating for the past year.

 

[Analog Kid]

Since that area of the M2 MBA is thinner, there is no doubt thermal capacity will also be lower.

You don’t want thermal capacity, you want thermal dissipation. Get the heat to the case and from the case to the air. Why store it inside?

 

[aja_96]

The new air is bigger, new screen, by definition been redesigned. But no question it could throttle under heavy load thus the 13 MBP with active cooling

It would definitely throttle before an M2 Pro, but the real benchmark should be if it would throttle before an M1 Air, the answer to which is we don’t know (which is my whole point really, to not speculate too wildly ahead of official testing)

 

[jav6454]

It would definitely throttle before an M2 Pro, but the real benchmark should be if it would throttle before an M1 Air, the answer to which is we don’t know (which is my whole point really, to not speculate too wildly ahead of official testing)

Yes it will throttle more than the M1 Air, that isn't even up for debate. Did you watch the M2 MBP video regarding how much more heat the M2 produced?

 

[DamonS]

I have a question if anyone is happy to help me .. Will the MBA M2 make a loud noise? Sorry if this is a silly question, any help is appreciated , because i have a mba from around 10 years ago (im not sure which year) and it’s never made a sound. It’s just getting to the point where I’m needing to upgrade and I haven’t found one that doesn’t make a sound. I’m terrible and can’t really use windows/pc laptops and everything else I own is Apple.. sorry for such a long post!

 

[MajorFubar]

also a 500$ windows laptop (my sister's for example) has 6k r/w , c'mon

Is that supposed to be impressive? The computer we're calling slow has 1500+ megabits r/w, not kilobits, and the M1 before it has double that.

 

[MajorFubar]

I have a question if anyone is happy to help me .. Will the MBA M2 make a loud noise? Sorry if this is a silly question, any help is appreciated , because i have a mba from around 10 years ago (im not sure which year) and it’s never made a sound. It’s just getting to the point where I’m needing to upgrade and I haven’t found one that doesn’t make a sound. I’m terrible and can’t really use windows/pc laptops and everything else I own is Apple.. sorry for such a long post!

M2 MBA will be completely silent. There are literally no moving parts except the keys and the hinges.

 

[DamonS]

M2 MBA will be completely silent. There are literally no moving parts except the keys and the hinges.

Amazing thank you for replying!

 

[blkjedi954]

In the video using blackmagic showed half the speed of ssd on the M2 13 pro vs the M1.
They speculated its was a cost saving

Cost savings due to the M2 having ONE ssd vs M1 having TWO ssd drives in a raid with a controller which is way faster than the single ssd.

 

[blkjedi954]

I just watched a vid with a M1 air vs a M2 pro and the Air gets 3k R/W which is what I get on mine and the M2 got 1400's R/W. I would be very disappointed if that's the case. Maybe its a software issue, I got better Reads on my 2020 i5 on Big Sur vs Catalina.

Not a software issue Cost but due to the M2 having ONE ssd vs M1 having TWO ssd drives in a raid with a controller which is way faster than the single ssd.