Mac Marketshare Growth in High End Retail Market

[DMann]

Quality

So yes, $1500 Apples and PCs are built better and are higher quality than $500 PCs is most likely a true statement. Are $1500 Apples and $1500 PCs the same quality? I'd say that's most likely another true statement.

Perhaps from an internal component point of view (chipset, motherboard, logic board, etc.) this is true. However, comparing the two in terms of grades of plastic used, casing structure, optical drives (slot vs plastic drawer), plugs and connectors, fans, and overall integrity, I couldn't disagree more.

 

[CalfCanuck]

I could also build my own house and save a pile of money. Who the hell cares.

What a great analogy - best I've ever seen. Had a laugh when I saw it!

This is the exact problem - people always use their special, discounted computer purchase as a "typical" price for PC's when comparing to Apple's standard, non-discounted, pricing. Used to be the same argument on these forums when using Dell systems as a pricing benchmark, before Dell stopped all their crazy discounting.

Posters here neglect the economic reasoning behind these deep discounts that they try to use as examples of normal pricing - they are aimed at people on the margin who will only buy if you give a heavy discount. The seller has already gotten the normal buyers who buy at full price, so to capture the last 10% of their customers they have to lower the prices - but ONLY for those last purchasers.

Hence all the "tricks" that seem to give low prices but impose a "cost" of time or energy that many people won't be bothered with. Examples: clip this coupon and bring it into the store, sale on Thursday from 6am to 10am, mail in rebate with 4 supporting documents needed before the deadline, drive to a big box warehouse like Fry's with minimal sales staff then wander around lost, etc.

 

[BenRoethig]

Oh really? Then why did the power jack break on my friend's HP laptop, making it essentially useless, and not on his Macbook?

OHHH, right, that super-NON-special commodity Mac hardware called MagSafe.

I wish they would have come up with it sooner. Would have saved me a couple hundred bucks.

 

[Roderick Usher]

There is NO good justfication for Apple to sell their only 3D capable machines at $2000+ prices. They could include a DECENT 3D card in their $1200 laptops and/or the MacMini but they purposely choose NOT to in order to force those of you that WANT decent 3D graphics to buy a $2000+ machine.

Yep. This is the hard truth, folks, and I've yet to see a convincing argument against it.

 

[Eidorian]

Hence all the "tricks" that seem to give low prices but impose a "cost" of time or energy that many people won't be bothered with. Examples: clip this coupon and bring it into the store, sale on Thursday from 6am to 10am, mail in rebate with 4 supporting documents needed before the deadline, drive to a big box warehouse like Fry's with minimal sales staff then wander around lost, etc.

Do you have any personal experience with Fry's? Not to mention their quad core discounts tend to be from their nearly constant ads and few mail in rebates. I've had 100% success with the deep discount Q6600 processors for US$179 in the past 6 weeks. I'm making a nice little profit buying them up and selling them on eBay or some of my MacRumors friends...

Perhaps from an internal component point of view (chipset, motherboard, logic board, etc.) this is true. However, comparing the two in terms of grades of plastic used, casing structure, disk drives, plugs and connectors, fans, and overall integrity, I couldn't disagree more.

Same plant in south east Asia...

 

[mjteix]

Perhaps from an internal component point of view (chipset, motherboard, logic board, etc.) this is true. However, comparing the two in terms of grades of plastic used, casing structure, disk drives, plugs and connectors, fans, and overall integrity, I couldn't disagree more.

disk drives?
Apple uses the same as any other manufacturer and offer less choices in fact. I even remember that they used some crappy Seagates on some MacBooks...

 

[BenRoethig]

Well, they do use pioneer for the optical drives so that is a $5 premium over Lite-On and LG.

 

[DMann]

disk drives

disk drives?
Apple uses the same as any other manufacturer and offer less choices in fact. I even remember that they used some crappy Seagates on some MacBooks...

sorry, my error, i was referring to optical drive (slot vs. plastic drawer)

Same plant in south east Asia...

Same plant, different grades used for more or less $$.

 

[CalfCanuck]

Do you have any personal experience with Fry's? Not to mention their quad core discounts tend to be from their nearly constant ads and few mail in rebates. I've had 100% success with the deep discount Q6600 processors for US$179 in the past 6 weeks. I'm making a nice little profit buying them up and selling them on eBay or some of my MacRumors friends...

Yes, I've lived in the bay area for decades, and often shop at the Fry's down in San Diego when I'm visiting my mom and need to get some tech gear for her. But I'd never send her in alone - she'd freak out. You have to admit that the experience from walking into a Mac store is quite different than that of walking into a Fry's!

The very fact that you can "arbitrage" your purchases from Fry's only proves that there IS an extra cost that has to be taken into account to get this low pricing (to anyone who doesn't understand this economic term, that means making a profit buying low from one location and sell at the going price in other locations). Do you think you could arbitrage a Mac?

I'm not saying Fry's is bad - for those of us who'd pop off the back of a computer in an instant and start monkeying around with the motherboard, places like Fry's are heaven. But first, we're the minority, and second, not everyone lives close enough to a Fry's to be able to drive there to buy the stuff.

 

[Eidorian]

The very fact that you can "arbitrage" your purchases from Fry's only proves that there IS an extra cost that has to be taken into account to get this low pricing (to anyone who doesn't understand this economic term, that means making a profit buying low from one location and sell at the going price in other locations). Do you think you could arbitrage a Mac?

Actually I have. I've always resold my discounted Apple hardware at a profit. I've never paid retail prices for Apple products.

There are some users that do want to build their own machine but there's nothing wrong with buying one.

To be honest I don't want anyone at an Apple Store to talk to me. It's difficult when you can take on the Geniuses head on with troubleshooting, repairs and administration. The floor staff is just pedestrian.

 

[DMann]

I'd agree that PCs were aesthetically unpleasing a few years ago but that simply isn't the case for a lot of the new ones.

Yes we do. It's nice to see how Apple has had such a profound influence on the PC market.

I'm sorry this is your experience. For the vast majority of people it's not otherwise MS would have been out of business years ago.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people are not as computer savvy as you may be. Many have grown to accept the ritual of restarting and have become accustomed to calling in a specialist or an IT guy, which is good for the IT business, I suppose.

Windows isn't actually 'utter crap'. Leopard may be slightly beter than Vista (but see point b) but XP was for a long time better than the previous OSX 10 variants. Fashions in OSs change. Apple's current product is beter than Microsoft's. Who's to say Microsoft's next OS won't be better than Apple's?

Better in some ways perhaps, but the Windows OS is based on code layered upon code with a foundation of QDOS. It is both unstable, and vulnerable, due to MS's desire to link the OS to IE, making it easier for malware to get into the OS and propagate. Windows made a valiant endeavor to emulate the Mac OS over the years, (hence Windows) but the vast amounts of spaghetti code upon code make it vulnerable to failure.

Who's to say Microsoft's next OS won't be better than Apple's?

That's right, who's to say? We'll be sure to find out sometime in 2012.

$1,200 will get you a good machine with an excellent monitor. In addition my Windows machines take less than a minute to boot up - about the same as the Macbook - and seconds from sleep mode. As for malware, anyone who allows their PC to get infested has really only themselves to blame. There is absolutely no excuse to allow malware on your PC with the likes of ZoneAlarm, Avast and AdAware available for no cost.

Many would rather not have to go outside wearing a bullet proof vest under a UV reflective space suit. Hundreds of new viruses are being developed each day, faster than any Anti-Virus company can ever keep up with. Some people would rather not have to be concerned with blaming themselves.

Actually it's an extra 66% of cost.

Not if you opt for a mid-range iMac.

Yup, it's nice but so are a lot of the new PCs.

Thanks to Apple's profound influence on the PC market place.

has the problem that it doesn't run the apps I need it to.

Which apps are these? I'm aware of quite a few.

Sorry but I simply don't believe this.

I am not alone:

Here we go again. For our very large company, Dell is running at about 80% of the units have problems within the first month of purchase....

The XPS One is nice but most PC builders don't build all in one units because of their limitations.

It's nice, thanks to Apple's influence. Competition is good. Limitations or not, iMacs seem to sell better than the XPS.

 

[JoeDMD]

Steve must think osX sucks and only mindless fools buy macs

Apple seems to think that, despite its TV ads, noone really wants os X. Like the white haired guy in the yellow convertible, Apple has no confidence in its software unless it is packaaged in a glitzy cool piece of industrial art. The only ones who go gaga over this magnificent sculpture are of course going to be mindless fools who would never think of adding a hard drive or *gasp* some form of connectivity that may be introduced in the future.

On the other hand, the high end mac user really understands how super duper osx is and is always running 52 apps at the same time,so he really need 8 3.2Ghz cores and is willing to fork over more than 5 grand to get them (along with 4 GB ram and a 750GB HD). He also understands the beauty of the case deisgn, but is ok with sliding it under his desk.

If you are not a MF or a HEMU, Steve won't sell you a computer. But, Steve is a genius, or at least a god, so he must know what he is doing. It has worked so far.

 

[javierbds]

Intel iMacs are throws-aways?

So you buy your iMac, (maybe with AppleCare), you know you cannot upgrade but who cares, it is what you need right now. Then after 3 years (or less if you did not get AppleCare, see Murphy) your Superdrive (search for Mat(su)shita "happy" users on Apple forums) says goodbye!. Then, you are faced with: a) Pay the market value of the machine to a tech guy just to replace the Superdrive with an "Apple approved" one probably of similar quality, knowing that anyway, the iMac case will not fit tight ever again; b) Buy some tools, some prozac, remember all of Ive´s ancestors, and DIY; c) Buy an external fw DVD and put some tape on that useless slot; d) Throw away your iMac and ...

The G5 iMac was way more serviceable than the Intel iMacs, this obsession with just a quarter of an inch thinner on a desktop machine is . So Apple is more env-friendly because they use easier to recycle materials? The best recycling is made by end users. Apple was env-friendly because a PPC Mac lasted usable a lot more than a wintel. But Apple wants you to buy throw away machines ... or force you to get a pro machine. So, you'll pay upfront, pay in the end or even both: ... (parts cost more, sw costs more, repairs cost more): keeping an updated or even not partially broken machine costs way more than people realize initially ...

PS: I´m quite happy with my iMac (late 2006) and my external DVD recorder. No, I will not put tape in that useless slot ... Yes I know the desktop is no longer of interest to Apple.
Did I say (some) MatsuSHITa Superdrives are pure SH*T?

 

[DMann]

If you want to see bulk and clutter, you should see my iMac.

I would consider a used MacPro tower in your case.

As for life span. My Performa 5200 lasted be five years, and kept on going for another 5 after as a computer for my grand parents. My B&W G3 lasted me five before I sold it. I was able to extend the usefulness though upgrade to the optical drive, hard drive, video card, and RAM. After that I got a iBook for college. Its still around, but has averaged a new motherboard every 9 months or so. Then again I do now buy the Apple care I didn't think anyone would ever need back in my G3 days.

I agree, motherboard, power supply and overheating issues were frequent for a stretch between 2005-06. (Quality Control issue) This problem now seems to have been corrected. Unfortunately, however, in order to remain competitive within the PC market, Apple no longer charges $4000+ like they did for a prosumer Ci, or Si, and therefore doesn't build them to last for 50+ years as had been done in the past. If you want this kind of industrial-grade quality, you need to go the more expensive route of the workstation, the MacPro.

 

[gkarris]

Apple seems to think that, despite its TV ads, noone really wants os X. Like the white haired guy in the yellow convertible, Apple has no confidence in its software unless it is packaaged in a glitzy cool piece of industrial art. The only ones who go gaga over this magnificent sculpture are of course going to be mindless fools who would never think of adding a hard drive or *gasp* some form of connectivity that may be introduced in the future.

On the other hand, the high end mac user really understands how super duper osx is and is always running 52 apps at the same time,so he really need 8 3.2Ghz cores and is willing to fork over more than 5 grand to get them (along with 4 GB ram and a 750GB HD). He also understands the beauty of the case deisgn, but is ok with sliding it under his desk.

If you are not a MF or a HEMU, Steve won't sell you a computer. But, Steve is a genius, or at least a god, so he must know what he is doing. It has worked so far.

At least I'm no longer "bending over" for Michael Dell.


What's a MF or a HEMU?

 

[JoeDMD]

At least I'm no longer "bending over" for Michael Dell.


What's a MF or a HEMU?

mf=mindless fool
hemu= high end mac user

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

sorry, my error, i was referring to optical drive (slot vs. plastic drawer)

I wouldn't call that a difference in quality, and some Windows notebooks do have slot-loading drives.

 

[BenRoethig]

Apple seems to think that, despite its TV ads, noone really wants os X. Like the white haired guy in the yellow convertible, Apple has no confidence in its software unless it is packaaged in a glitzy cool piece of industrial art. The only ones who go gaga over this magnificent sculpture are of course going to be mindless fools who would never think of adding a hard drive or *gasp* some form of connectivity that may be introduced in the future.

On the other hand, the high end mac user really understands how super duper osx is and is always running 52 apps at the same time,so he really need 8 3.2Ghz cores and is willing to fork over more than 5 grand to get them (along with 4 GB ram and a 750GB HD). He also understands the beauty of the case deisgn, but is ok with sliding it under his desk.

If you are not a MF or a HEMU, Steve won't sell you a computer. But, Steve is a genius, or at least a god, so he must know what he is doing. It has worked so far.

That pretty much sums it up. They think you're neither an idiot or a movie/record producer.

I would consider a used MacPro tower in your case.

Used? Used? Why should I have to buy someone's second hand stuff that's a generation behind just to please the indulgences of Jobs and Ive?

 

[BongoBanger]

Yes we do. It's nice to see how Apple has had such a profound influence on the PC market.

Perhaps. It's nice to see whatever the reason.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people are not as computer savvy as you may be. Many have grown to accept the ritual of restarting and have become accustomed to calling in a specialist or an IT guy, which is good for the IT business, I suppose.

My mum knows nothing about computers and has had no issues with XP.

Ever.

Better in some ways perhaps, but the Windows OS is based on code layered upon code with a foundation of QDOS.

I'm sorry but that's not true. QDOS led to IBMDOS which led to IBMDOS and Windows Me was the last to use it. XP and Vista come from the NT family which only run a DOS emulator and are not based upon it. This has been the case since XP came out in 2001.

It is both unstable, and vulnerable, due to MS's desire to link the OS to IE, making it easier for malware to get into the OS and propagate.

Sorry, neither XP nor Vista are unstable. As for vulnerability, it's true they are more susceptible to malware but there is simply no excuse for anyone getting malware now.

Windows made a valiant endeavor to emulate the Mac OS over the years, (hence Windows) but the vast amounts of spaghetti code upon code make it vulnerable to failure.

I find Vista to be overdone and hope MS learn from their errors when building W7. XP though is an excellent OS.

That's right, who's to say? We'll be sure to find out sometime in 2012.

2010 actually.

Many would rather not have to go outside wearing a bullet proof vest under a UV reflective space suit.

This is a gross exaggeration. A more relevant analogy would be to wear a jacket in case it might rain.

Hundreds of new viruses are being developed each day, faster than any Anti-Virus company can ever keep up with. Some people would rather not have to be concerned with blaming themselves.

This is again nonsense. Most of the virii are variants and easily dealt with. In addition virtually all virii can be used by exercising caution when browsing in much the same way as you wouldn't walk down a dark alleyway in a poor neighbourhood whilst wearing a lot of expensive jewellery.

In addition, as Windows has a lot of experience with virii threats are identified and closed very quickly. This does not always seem to be the case with Apple.

http://computerworld.com/action/art...lnerabilities&articleId=9087898&taxonomyId=85

Not if you opt for a mid-range iMac.

That's not the comparison you made though which concerned the 24" iMac. That said, I guess the mid-range iMac would be the 20" 2.66GHz which comes in at $1,500 - a 25% mark up.

Of course you would then be comparing it to an equivalent PC with lower specs so the mark up would be considerably bigger.

Thanks to Apple's profound influence on the PC market place.

Perhaps. Like I said it's just nice.

Which apps are these? I'm aware of quite a few.

MS Access, Outlook, Visio, Picasa and most recent games.

I am not alone:

You really should check that source you know because he's completely wrong.

It's nice, thanks to Apple's influence. Competition is good. Limitations or not, iMacs seem to sell better than the XPS.

Undoubtedly. It's nice they've produced it but it's a niche market.

 

[macidiot]

What a great analogy - best I've ever seen. Had a laugh when I saw it!

This is the exact problem - people always use their special, discounted computer purchase as a "typical" price for PC's when comparing to Apple's standard, non-discounted, pricing. Used to be the same argument on these forums when using Dell systems as a pricing benchmark, before Dell stopped all their crazy discounting.

Posters here neglect the economic reasoning behind these deep discounts that they try to use as examples of normal pricing - they are aimed at people on the margin who will only buy if you give a heavy discount. The seller has already gotten the normal buyers who buy at full price, so to capture the last 10% of their customers they have to lower the prices - but ONLY for those last purchasers.

Hence all the "tricks" that seem to give low prices but impose a "cost" of time or energy that many people won't be bothered with. Examples: clip this coupon and bring it into the store, sale on Thursday from 6am to 10am, mail in rebate with 4 supporting documents needed before the deadline, drive to a big box warehouse like Fry's with minimal sales staff then wander around lost, etc.

Exactly. One time I went with a friend to Best Buy. I wanted to pick up a movie. He wanted a cable modem. He found some sort of coupon/trick online to get it for free. Basically, we spent something like 1.5 hours jumping through hoops so my friend could get his free modem. It was unbelievable. 20 minutes into it, I told him, just buy the damn thing, who the hell cares about $50? We spent hundreds in wasted time...

 

[Eidorian]

Exactly. One time I went with a friend to Best Buy. I wanted to pick up a movie. He wanted a cable modem. He found some sort of coupon/trick online to get it for free. Basically, we spent something like 1.5 hours jumping through hoops so my friend could get his free modem. It was unbelievable. 20 minutes into it, I told him, just buy the damn thing, who the hell cares about $50? We spent hundreds in wasted time...

Time and money are very delicate things to talk about. I'm willing to go through a few hoops to save some money. I'm sure that you're willing to pay more to save your time but sadly I'm not that way.

I spent an hour troubleshooting Windows Vista 64-bit last night and you don't hear me complaining about it. Keep in mind it might have been OS X's fault to begin with.

I'm going to file myself under the utilitarian Mac user. I love OS X but Apple's hardware is rather lacking in my personal opinion.

 

[G58]

They've all been Jonathan Ive designs since the first iMac in 1998. His design input personifies what Steve's philosophy for Apple is all about, and has been since he returned.

And if you want to crack a current iMac, all you have to do is Google it. It's a fairly simple thing to upgrade the HDD.

But Apple have recently radically revised their pricing policy by reducing the difference between the standard 320GB and 500GB option to just $50, 750GB to $150 and 1TB to $300 on the 2.8GHz 24" model, therefore reducing our need to perform DIY jobs for at least the life of the first HDD.

It's the same story with the memory. If you compared Apple's RAM prices with those of Orca and Crucial only a month ago, Apple looked like a robber baron. Now, when you consider questions of possible 3rd party issues, it's worth telling Apple to fit the max 4GB when ordering.

But these are all marketing decisions. They help to push up the unit spend and keep more business in-house. That money was already being spent, often before the Mac shipped, but with Crucial etc. Now Apple is getting it. And as Apple's market share increases, you can bet that's hurting some people.

...Yeah, the hard drive thing is annoying, especially since it was accessible in the last generation. But this is an Ive designed machine. Who actually cares if the thing works if it looks good right?

 

[AidenShaw]

They've all been Jonathan Ive designs since the first iMac in 1998. His design input personifies what Steve's philosophy for Apple is all about, and has been since he returned.

Scary, that idea is...

Why is it that a 10 year old PC looks old, but a 10 year old Apple looks ridiculous?


Design? Or confusing style for design?

 

[G58]

Wow!

I own a business that's giving EVERYONE a new iMac. And guess what? there's a suitable iMac for everyone, from secretary and receptionist to techie, sales and CEO. How democratic is that? And when we do press stuff, we don't hire some hotel function suite, we use the office - because it looks so good!

And here's another thing, all my employees friends want to work for us now! But of course, they're all mindless... what was the term?... oh yeah - mindless fools, just like us. But hey, do we make money and party? You bet.

Apple seems to think that, despite its TV ads, noone really wants os X. Like the white haired guy in the yellow convertible, Apple has no confidence in its software unless it is packaaged in a glitzy cool piece of industrial art. The only ones who go gaga over this magnificent sculpture are of course going to be mindless fools who would never think of adding a hard drive or *gasp* some form of connectivity that may be introduced in the future.

On the other hand, the high end mac user really understands how super duper osx is and is always running 52 apps at the same time,so he really need 8 3.2Ghz cores and is willing to fork over more than 5 grand to get them (along with 4 GB ram and a 750GB HD). He also understands the beauty of the case deisgn, but is ok with sliding it under his desk.

If you are not a MF or a HEMU, Steve won't sell you a computer. But, Steve is a genius, or at least a god, so he must know what he is doing. It has worked so far.

 

[Eidorian]

Wow!

When you failed psychology and started seeing the world in such narrow terms, did someone in a white coat hand you a small piece of paper that read: 'Prescription'? You should go find it. How can you make such ludicrously simplistic statements?

I own a business that's giving EVERYONE a new iMac. And guess what? there's a suitable iMac for everyone, from secretary and receptionist to techie, sales and CEO. How democratic is that? And when we do press stuff, we don't hire some hotel function suite, we use the office - because it looks so good!

And here's another thing, all my employees friends want to work for us now! But of course, they're all mindless... what was the term?... oh yeah - mindless fools, just like us. But hey, do we make money and party? You bet.

I wish we could order iMacs but the senior administration fears all-in-one computers when it comes to repairs.

We have quite a few Mac minis now with Dell LCDs...