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All of that said, it does not dismiss the possibility that Apple is making a mistake that is negatively effecting "the bottom line" in the long term. Clive calls it greed. I call it "being too conservative".

As a person that wants to see more choices in computer products, I want to see Apple spend a little of that 2b$ and produce one more model of computer. That's it. Not 10 more, just one more.

Yeah, in the short term, it's probably not going to make them a lot of money, but the market they are ignoring is the path to long term profits. If they don't go after it, macs will remain a "fad" and fads pass all too quickly.

I wouldn't give a crap if I didn't like the software and hardware they make. But being greedy myself, I want to see the platform grow as that benefits me as a user of that platform. I don't care about the "statement" using a mac makes. I care about the functionality I get from using one. For those that use macs as "bling" they'd be happier if Apple stayed the course they are on and kept them a niche product.

JMO, I reserve the right to be wrong.

You're totally right, and so is Clive At Five. Its not to do with demand at all. People can argue about demand til the cows come home, but apple has more access to what little data there is on that than anyone and no xMac appears forthcoming.

Does the miniscule number of mac fanatics posting on the net about how the lack of an xMac has driven them to look into hackintoshes suggest iMac sales will suffer?

Of course not. Who in their right mind would suggest that's gonna put a visible dent in the halo effect and the marketshare growth apple's seeing atm?

Does it reflect a wider dissatisfaction in the mac community with apple's product line that may be costing them sales from their loyal fanbase?

Obviously. Shikimo you attack Cave Man's numbers because they come from a site called Geekbench. Granted the 5000 posts suggests 5000 hackintoshers math is ridiculous if I'm reading it right, but surely the miniscule proportion of the mac community such ubergeeks make up suggests the unhelpful 20x number is, if anything, very conservative as he himself points out. I know tons of ppl with 5 year old ibooks waiting for their next windfall before they'll upgrade them. Both Clive and I have said that we will hang on to our imacs with all their planned obsolence until apple provides us with something better suited to our needs worth dropping £2000 on. It's naive to assume we're alone just cos most of the visitors to this site are members of the mac community who are coming here precisely because they intend to upgrade their mac soon.

Is the lack of an xMac costing Apple switchers?

No doubt. Whilst us xMaccers will undoubtedly end up buying another mac begrudgingly once we've given up waiting for what we want, this is the number one attack levelled at macs by friends of mine who are otherwise open to the idea of switching. Whilst the hackintosh crowd may be small, the percentage of computer buyers who use a midrange desktop as their primary computer and don't want an all-in-one is probably well in excess of 50%. So if the current trend is to continue, you'd expect apple would have to bring out an xMac at some point, or else their marketshare will probably peak at around 10-15%.

But my guess is, they'll resist for as long as possible, for the reasons Clive and saltyzoo have already stated. It's partly greed for higher profit margins, but also because apple is too conservative to gamble with their high margin product lines that are working better for them now than they ever did when they had too many computers. On the one hand, apple isn't as focused on computers as it used to be, and on the other hand a headless imac with a small footprint would be taking apple's fight for the living room in entirely the wrong direction as they see it. If you could upscale dvds to 1080p on the fly, plug in an eyetv usb dongle to make it a pvr and have a $1500 htpc that ran osx with an external bluray drive next to it, you probably wouldn't rent many movies off itunes...

But the demand is there. Between the gamers, the semi-pros, the potential switchers deterred by a myriad of objections to the imac line-up, the demand for the xMac is probably greater than that for any other mac product line, even the macbook. It's just that catering for it doesn't fit in with apple's agenda at the moment.
 
I just want an updated mini...all they'd have to do is upgrade the graphics (even to match the MB) and then throw in a tiny processor bump, maybe from 1.83ghz and 2.0ghz go to 2.0ghz and 2.1ghz.

This would make me happy.
 
But it's that high margin that allows Apple to stay in business...

If Apple didn't have almost 20 BILLION in the bank, I might be inclined to agree with you. However, Apple is doing quite well and even if their entire revenue stream stopped dead today, they have enough cash on-hand to fuel R&D projects and acquisitions for the next decade. Unless they plan to send a rocket to Mars, I would say that they're making more money than they know how to use.

You call it greed, which is pejorative. They are trying to maximize profits for their owners (shareholders).

That's the only reason any business enterprise exists: To make a profit. A few succeed spectacularly, many only moderately, but most fail, and ultimately cease to exist.

I'm not asking that Apple go and throw bags of money out of blimps to the people below, but it'd be nice of them to NOT wring every possible penny out of users.

So they may not turn such huge of profits, but at least the 5, 10, 20% (whatever it is) of users who are screaming, begging and pleading for an xMac will regain the satisfaction they've lost from being ignored all these years.

-Clive
 
Clive, with your very good explanation of Apple's marketing, you have convinced me finally that an XMac is not forthcoming. For the past year or so, I have been waiting, but now I know my wait has been for naught. I have decided against buying a Mac Pro, and I will not buy an AIO. The Mini is overpriced and underpowered, so I will continue using my older Mac towers and my new powerful Windows XP desktop and portable computers. No Vista for me.

If Apple does make the fabled XMac, I will be standing in line to buy it.
 
No forseeable..

... update to the mini despite recent rumors. No update to 4 year old ACD monitors. No affordable Headless tower.... is there any wonder a clone company like Psystar can made a semi decent tower and get so much attention?:mad::apple:
 
Clive, with your very good explanation of Apple's marketing, you have convinced me finally that an XMac is not forthcoming. For the past year or so, I have been waiting, but now I know my wait has been for naught. I have decided against buying a Mac Pro, and I will not buy an AIO. The Mini is overpriced and underpowered, so I will continue using my older Mac towers and my new powerful Windows XP desktop and portable computers. No Vista for me.

If Apple does make the fabled XMac, I will be standing in line to buy it.

My intent was not to discourage you. Heck, I even still have a shred of hope that maybe these last few years I've been living in a nightmare and next Tuesday Apple will finally shake me out of it with a value-added (read: discrete GPU) Mini or xMac.

Until then, however, I've switched my priorities from buying(/waiting for) a Mac to building a Hackintosh. I'm willing to make that time committment... though I must admit it saddens me that my next Mac has to be such an abomination.

Steve, give me a reason to stay...

-Clive
 
Shikimo you attack Cave Man's numbers because they come from a site called Geekbench. Granted the 5000 posts suggests 5000 hackintoshers math is ridiculous if I'm reading it right, but surely the miniscule proportion of the mac community such ubergeeks make up suggests the unhelpful 20x number is, if anything, very conservative as he himself points out.

Insanelymac forums has 211,373 registered users. This site is principally for OSx86. I'm certain that many, perhaps most, of these have built or will soon build hackintoshes for themselves. It was extremely easy to build and configure my system (which exceeds a quad-core Mac Pro in performance for less than half the cost). But I had to decide if I could live with problematic system updates and half-working firewire. My Mini simply wasn't getting the job done for me anymore. An iMac is out of the question because if its awful display for photo work and lack of expandability. I cannot afford a Mac Pro. I went the route of hackintosh because I felt like I had no other choice. I am extremely happy I did. If Apple offered a $1500 headless Mac with an extra 3.5" drive bay and 4 DIMM slots, I would have bought it instead.
 
Cave Man, would this barebones kit work to make a Hackintosh?
 

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If Apple didn't have almost 20 BILLION in the bank, I might be inclined to agree with you. However, Apple is doing quite well and even if their entire revenue stream stopped dead today, they have enough cash on-hand to fuel R&D projects and acquisitions for the next decade. Unless they plan to send a rocket to Mars, I would say that they're making more money than they know how to use.



I'm not asking that Apple go and throw bags of money out of blimps to the people below, but it'd be nice of them to NOT wring every possible penny out of users.

So they may not turn such huge of profits, but at least the 5, 10, 20% (whatever it is) of users who are screaming, begging and pleading for an xMac will regain the satisfaction they've lost from being ignored all these years.

-Clive

But isn't wringing every penny of profit the American way of capitalism? And I say this sarcastically. I don't believe that corporations should try to maximize profits at any cost - but that is the form of capitalism as practiced by the majority of American corporations. As opposed to sustainability, longevity, etc. Apple is an American corporation. They are acting as such.
 
Apple is too fixed on the iPhone to worry about updating the mini it seems atm. A friend of mine recently went Hackintosh as he got sick and tired of waiting for the updates. After using it for a while, it has tempted me to do the same.
 
... update to the mini despite recent rumors. No update to 4 year old ACD monitors. No affordable Headless tower.... is there any wonder a clone company like Psystar can made a semi decent tower and get so much attention?:mad::apple:

Exactly. Which is why I made the remark about Psystar being a "canary in the coal mine" earlier ;)

It's easy enough to see someone at Apple thinking, "Hmmm...this Psystar thing is bad - gotta squash it." But I'd be much more impressed if they thought, "Hmmm...this Psystar thing seems to indicate a hole in our product lineup. Maybe we should do something about that."
 
I am curious to know how this discussion came about seeing how the original topic was "Mac Mini End Of Life"......

:p you should read it from the start , all 1364 posts , brilliant ...sometimes funny , sometimes sad , I mean we usually have to pay for this kind of entertainment .
As for building a Hackintosh , I am going to buy all the necessary at the end of August if the machine that I need does not magically appear from the gates of Cupertino's finest :apple:
 
It is beginning to look like some potential mini owners are going to switch to a hackintosh unless Apple does something quickly. I also think that the number of hackintosh users will grow if Apple drops PPC for Snow Leopard. Both of these user groups have a high number of people who are price sensitive.
 
Come on guys.
Lets face the sad and ugly truth.
The mini is dead.
No company...even Apple...could do such a bad job of marketing and keeping alive a product.
I am stunned by their complete lack of understanding this particular area of the computer market. :(

I think it might be the other way around. Here's what I understand the Mini to do -- attract switchers into the Apple store. Hey, you can in the door for $600! It's the low price for a Mac that gets them thinking about buying, but the prices are so well placed (along with features) that it's a pretty easy upsell to an iMac or MacBook once you've got them in the store.

In fact, it's to Apple's benefit to keep older hardware in the Mini, as it makes them 1.) cheaper to make and 2.) easier to upsell to something else.

I can't wait for the Mini to be updated as I'm in the category the fake Fusion targets, specially a hobbyist, low-cash Apple developer that'd like to join the Mactel ranks. But that's *not* Apple's intended use for the Mini.

Btw, how fast a proc could you swap into the Mini as it stands? How much of an at-home upgrade could you perform?
 
I had 1.5Ghz Core Solo that I just recently upgraded to a 2.0Ghz C2D (T7200) and 2GB of ram.

It was kinda nice knowing I could upgrade the oldest, crappiest Intel-based mini to a "modern day" mini whenever I wanted to. ;)
 
I don't believe that corporations should try to maximize profits at any cost - but that is the form of capitalism as practiced by the majority of American corporations. As opposed to sustainability, longevity, etc. Apple is an American corporation. They are acting as such.
What is "unsustainable" or "short-lived" about Apple?
 
...Yeah, in the short term, it's probably not going to make them a lot of money, but the market they are ignoring is the path to long term profits. If they don't go after it, macs will remain a "fad" and fads pass all too quickly...

When you say fad, are you referring to the recent increase in marketshare? I think Apple's been around too long and has too much sustained success to be called a fad, but maybe you are referring to something more specific?

I am curious to know how this discussion came about seeing how the original topic was "Mac Mini End Of Life"......

I'd sum it up like this:

1) while many of us were sitting around waiting for a Mini update, there was a rumor that it was EOL;

2) this rumor turned out to be false, as Mini's are still on shelves and people are presumably still buying them (although it has been established that no one can prove this);

3) all of us are upset/bemused/offended/apoplectic because of the increasingly outdated nature of Mini hardware specs;

4) many people have differing opinions on Apple's motivation in keeping the Mini around yet handicapping its hardware, and

5) in response to the lack of a functional headless machine under 2K, some users are choosing to build a hackintosh, which incited this lively debate about whether or not hackintoshing can have a meaningful detrimental impact on Apple's corporate success.

All in all, for a thread this long I think it's remarkably on-topic.
 
When you say fad, are you referring to the recent increase in marketshare? I think Apple's been around too long and has too much sustained success to be called a fad, but maybe you are referring to something more specific?

As long as they continue to avoid the midtower market and the midtower market continues to be the mainstream market, they are a fad. The only argument against my statement is their very nice line of notebook offerings, notebooks which are becoming a larger part of the market segment every day, but still lag far behind mid towers by a long stretch.
 
As long as they continue to avoid the midtower market and the midtower market continues to be the mainstream market, they are a fad. The only argument against my statement is their very nice line of notebook offerings, notebooks which are becoming a larger part of the market segment every day, but still lag far behind mid towers by a long stretch.

Take away the many millions of corporate PC drones that dominate businesses globally, then factor in that many computer users around the world simply can't afford a Mac (yes, Mini is relatively cheap, but basic PC e-systems are much cheaper, etc.), & Apple begins to look much more than a fad. A user base of 5 or 6 million may reasonably be considered "a fad"; but at least 25 million & growing is something else.
 
Take away the many millions of corporate PC drones that dominate businesses globally, then factor in that many computer users around the world simply can't afford a Mac (yes, Mini is relatively cheap, but basic PC e-systems are much cheaper, etc.), & Apple begins to look much more than a fad. A user base of 5 or 6 million may reasonably be considered "a fad"; but at least 25 million & growing is something else.

Yes, if you take away all the reasons they are a fad, then they are not a fad. :p
 
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