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Mac Mini End Of Life?
- Thread starter Dont Hurt Me
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Speaking for myself, I have no WinPC preconceptions because I've never owned one.
Apple has made a decent affordable tower before. One of the last G4s with a single processor was $1299. It had three PCI slots and could handle three hard drives.
Well considering how Apple prefers to use mobile parts, a Mac Mini Tower available right now would likely come in a small form factor case - something along the line of one of the Shuttle XPS systems. And using mobile parts means it will cost hundreds more in raw materials over using desktop parts and you'll still be limited to two quad-core CPUs (2.53GHz and 2.27GHz) and likely three dual-core (3.06GHz, 2.8GHz and 2.4GHz). On the plus side, you'll be able to put two 3.5" HDDs in it and you will have a choice of two video cards - an ATI x2600 or an nVidia 8800GT.
Prices with an ATI card, 2GB of RAM and a 500GB HDD will likely be $1199 for the 2.4GHz, $1499 for the 2.8GHz and $1799 for the 3.06GHz. Add $500 for the 2.27GHz quad-core and $750 for the 2.53GHz (compared to the $1199 model) and $150 for the nVidia 8800GT.
So a full-boat system would run you $2099, which admittedly is $400 cheaper then a single-CPU Mac Pro with the same memory, HDD and video card and a faster CPU (2.8GHz vs. 2.53GHz).
There might be a market for it, but I tend to think most would just scream how expensive it was and a rip-off compared to the Mac Pro or quad-core iMac (which will likely be $2199-$2299).
With an updated portion of the Mac OS X...
...where it's possible to distributed computing, think: Xgrid Lite or Mac OS Server becoming more and more standard on all Apple machines:
They would come up with very low cost Mac-Mini-type-machines/devices that come with graphics cards and others just for expanding/stacking onto existing machines to be able to "speed things up".
Though, yes, it's understandable this wouldn't be released soon. However, with all these updates to machines, I see that there should be an upgrade into the way other computers connect and interact with one another.
So, a new port perhaps that is quite fast, which means new boards, cards, buses and idea of what they can and cannot be.
However, I would also foresee a way to be able to use existing "connections" (firewire, usb, scsi, ethernet, etc.) to be able to use many devices/machines together as a "supercomputer" though may not be as fast as the new "superconnector", yet, still faster than each machine separately.
....
Yeahp, it's possible and may be the way to go with all these devices and computers being "obsolete/broken/etc."
...where it's possible to distributed computing, think: Xgrid Lite or Mac OS Server becoming more and more standard on all Apple machines:
They would come up with very low cost Mac-Mini-type-machines/devices that come with graphics cards and others just for expanding/stacking onto existing machines to be able to "speed things up".
Though, yes, it's understandable this wouldn't be released soon. However, with all these updates to machines, I see that there should be an upgrade into the way other computers connect and interact with one another.
So, a new port perhaps that is quite fast, which means new boards, cards, buses and idea of what they can and cannot be.
However, I would also foresee a way to be able to use existing "connections" (firewire, usb, scsi, ethernet, etc.) to be able to use many devices/machines together as a "supercomputer" though may not be as fast as the new "superconnector", yet, still faster than each machine separately.
....
Yeahp, it's possible and may be the way to go with all these devices and computers being "obsolete/broken/etc."
Yes, almost anyone with some skills, or desire to learn, could build a nice socket 775 system on the cheap. And Apple could do the same, likely at a good profit, but they'd have to support it. And support costs money. Anything less than a Mac Pro that Apple currently sells isn't very upgradeable. While that's a downer for the end user for Apple it means less problems with support problems like when Little Johnnie is trying to install a video card he just picked up at Wal-Mart.
Apple isn't exactly a small company, but the (Mac) hardware they support is tiny compared to Microsoft's support of x86 systems in regards to end user support, certification of hardware, and all the processes needed to support a za-zillion possible x86 hardware configurations, etc. Apple on the other hand is a rather lean company that focuses on a rather small hardware line compared to the great variety of hardware offered by a company like Dell.
Normally an army wouldn't advance beyond the reach of their supply lines, and it's usually smart to do the same when trying to advance one's company into previously uncharted territory. I can't see Apple jumping into that market just because "they could"... It'd be nice if they did (offer generic desktop systems), but I can't see it happening anytime soon. The huge support system it would require would have the potential to eat up any and all profit from such a venture (if they rushed blindly into this sort of thing).
Meanwhile, almost anyone with some skills, or a willingness to learn those skills...
You are most probably right with the support for any new Mac, although I still think one more headless mid range model, wouldn't be such a big problem for Apple, anyway the mean question is (as you have also mentioned in your previous reply) why is Mac Mini still 2 generations behind ? Personally I would forget any Hack thoughts if I have the chance to buy a new Mac Mini with todays specs.
P.S.
English is not my first language, so excuse some mistakes
I heard from my cousin whose roommate has a friend who knows this guy that does tech support at Apple who talked to a guy in the R&D labs who said that Steve Jobs said that as soon as this thread reaches 2000 posts, the new Mini will finally be released.
No, I do not expect, that a headless mid range computer from Apple should accept any HW and it never would go that way with Apple and it's OK. The problem is, today I could buy an underpowered Mac Mini, or a display_computer or a server grade big case computer. That's all. It may functioned very well for lets say last ten years, but it doesn't mean it will be OK also in the year 2020.
I think any company should just "hear" what the customers would like to see from them and try to supply them with it (in reasonable way of course). But the situation today is: "if you don't like our production line, go and buy Windoze" but feel free to buy an iPhone
You are most probably right with the support for any new Mac, although I still think one more headless mid range model, wouldn't be such a big problem for Apple, anyway the mean question is (as you have also mentioned in your previous reply) why is Mac Mini still 2 generations behind ? Personally I would forget any Hack thoughts if I have the chance to buy a new Mac Mini with todays specs.
P.S.
English is not my first language, so excuse some mistakes
If the Mac mini update happens, the update will make some people happy. But others would say it's way too big and ugly. ("Why does it have to be bigger than a paperback book? It's ugly!") Still others would say it was underpowered. ("Why doesn't it have a 8800M in it? That sucks!")
And a lot of people would probably still be asking "Where's the $1500 Mac Desktop?" But if Apple did make such a Mac then some people would be asking Apple support, "What do you mean it don't support my Sound Blaster card?"
And some will open their closets and take out an old grey-colored hat. While yet others will set off on a journey, to acquire a hat such as that.
The saga continues.
If the Mac mini update happens, the update will make some people happy. But others would say it's way too big and ugly. ("Why does it have to be bigger than a paperback book? It's ugly!") Still others would say it was underpowered. ("Why doesn't it have a 8800M in it? That sucks!")
And a lot of people would probably still be asking "Where's the $1500 Mac Desktop?" But if Apple did make such a Mac then some people would be asking Apple support, "What do you mean it don't support my Sound Blaster card?"
And some will open their closets and take out their old grey-colored hat. While yet others will set off on a journey, to acquire a hat such as that.
The saga continues.
You are absolutely right, but that's life. It isn't just B&W, there is a lot of gray everywhere
But that is the trick - "within reason". What, exactly, is a "within reason" market for this machine?
Apple sells an average of two million machines a quarter. For 2008, they'll likely hit somewhere around ten million units sold and shipped.
To listen to some proponents of the Mac MiniTower, at least ten million people are waiting to buy it right now, if only Apple would offer it. Yet if Apple's market research was showing that level of demand - or even half that level of demand - don't you think Apple would meet it? Especially if they could meet it at the current ~30% margins they enjoy on their current line?
I know many of those proponents hate it when I mention Psystar's sales (a few thousand) or the Hackintosh community machines (a few tens of thousand) and claim that is not a valid reference number. Many of them disparage "Apple fanboys" who "will buy anything with an Apple logo on it", yet then say that the reason Psystar has not pre-sold hundreds of thousands of machines or the Hackintosh community is not in the millions is because it doesn't have an Apple logo on it (in other words, they demand only an Apple-branded product).
I'm not denying - nor have I ever denied - that there is a community of existing and possible Apple users who want the flexibility of a machine with much of the expandability of the Mac Pro without using workstation-grade CPUs and motherboards because they feel it will be cheaper. They look at the $200 desktop quad-cores and the $100 P45 motherboards and assume an Apple MiniTower would be able to be built and sold for the same price. They are either not understanding Apple's product-line since transitioning to Intel or are deliberately ignoring it.
The 2.53GHz and 2.27GHz mobile quad-core CPUs announced yesterday by Intel are both, respectively, more expensive then the 3.0GHz and 2.8GHz Xeon CPUs in the Mac Pro though, yes, the PM45 systemboards are likely a few hundred dollars cheaper. So you save $300 on the systemboard and spend $100 more on the CPU for a savings of $200.
For less then 10% savings, you get a machine that is slower (both now and in the future) and less-expandable. Which just happens to be the same argument leveled against the iMac and the Mac Mini.
Well then that explains why there is no Mac MiniTower and likely won't be while he still exercises executive control over the company. He doesn't seem to think it's a great product, and I can understand why, since it would just be like every other Wintel box out there, just running OS X.
all three you menton make mistakes none are perfect. Apple is not 100% perfect, no one is. thats why its up to us to give them feedback.
Really? Would you say that the Macbooks are just the same as every other Wintel laptop out there, just running OS X? I wouldn't.
And even if it were the case that OS X was the only differentiating feature in an Apple midrange tower, that would still be sufficient reason for me to buy one.
Neither would I. I guess that's why Apple makes them.
Absolutely. The more people who let Apple know they want one, the more they know how well such a model would likely sell. Just be sure to note what you think it should use as components and what price you expect to pay for it.
We've tried that... https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/5410065/
Three months later... no MacMini.
-Clive
ATTN sjobs@apple.com:
When people say they are holding out for a Mac Mini update to save a few pounds they are not talking about weight...
I have been lurking and waiting for that very same thing. I really should mention that my early 2005 G4 1.42 ppc is still running like it doesn't need a replacement... and I must sleep now or I would wait up for the 2000th post.
I found a refurbished Mac mini 1.83 GHz C2D with 1 GB RAM (2 x 512MB), i did a bit of calculation (prices are with shipping):
- the refurbisched Mac mini 1.83 GHz would cost me 440 €
- i would need to upgrade the RAM, 2x2 GB is about 70 €
- because it doesn't have a superdrive, i would need a replacement drive, aka i need and internal DVD-RW burner (costs about 80 €) or an USB 2.0 external DVD-RW, that cost about 120 €
- also it doesn't have MacOS X Leopard, "just" Tiger. If i would like to use Leopard, that means, i have to buy a retail copy, which would cost me additional 130 €
- if i would need speed, than i have to upgrade the internal drive to a 7200 rpm. An WD 16MB cache 320 GB 2,5" 7200 rpm HDD would cost me about 150 €
That means the following:
config 1 (720 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- internal DVD-RW
- Leopard
config 2 (760 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- external DVD-RW
- Leopard
config 3 (870 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- internal DVD-RW
- Leopard
- 320 GB HDD
config 4 (910 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- external DVD-RW
- Leopard
- 320 GB HDD
Than of course, if i would like to upgrade the CPU (maybe in the future) to an Intel Merom T7500 2,2 GHz CPU (about 100-120 €) or even a T7600 2.33 GHz, that would cost about additional 200-250 €
So the whole hardware thing is quite expensive... for 700 € i get a quite powerfull PC. Than for 900 € even more powerfull (i did also calculated the price for Windows Vista Premium Home DSP or Premium Business DSP, about 120-150 € with WAT).
If i calculate the whole Mac mini refurb upgrade with a T7600 CPU in case of config4, that would be together around 1160-1200 €!
A new Mac mini with 1.83 GHz CPU, 1 GB RAM, Leopard and 80 GB HDD would cost me 540 €, the 2.0 GHZ version with Superdrive would cost about 200 € more, that means 750 €. Uhmm...
- the refurbisched Mac mini 1.83 GHz would cost me 440 €
- i would need to upgrade the RAM, 2x2 GB is about 70 €
- because it doesn't have a superdrive, i would need a replacement drive, aka i need and internal DVD-RW burner (costs about 80 €) or an USB 2.0 external DVD-RW, that cost about 120 €
- also it doesn't have MacOS X Leopard, "just" Tiger. If i would like to use Leopard, that means, i have to buy a retail copy, which would cost me additional 130 €
- if i would need speed, than i have to upgrade the internal drive to a 7200 rpm. An WD 16MB cache 320 GB 2,5" 7200 rpm HDD would cost me about 150 €
That means the following:
config 1 (720 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- internal DVD-RW
- Leopard
config 2 (760 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- external DVD-RW
- Leopard
config 3 (870 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- internal DVD-RW
- Leopard
- 320 GB HDD
config 4 (910 €):
- refurb Mac mini 1,83 GHz
- 4 GB RAM
- external DVD-RW
- Leopard
- 320 GB HDD
Than of course, if i would like to upgrade the CPU (maybe in the future) to an Intel Merom T7500 2,2 GHz CPU (about 100-120 €) or even a T7600 2.33 GHz, that would cost about additional 200-250 €
So the whole hardware thing is quite expensive... for 700 € i get a quite powerfull PC. Than for 900 € even more powerfull (i did also calculated the price for Windows Vista Premium Home DSP or Premium Business DSP, about 120-150 € with WAT).
If i calculate the whole Mac mini refurb upgrade with a T7600 CPU in case of config4, that would be together around 1160-1200 €!
A new Mac mini with 1.83 GHz CPU, 1 GB RAM, Leopard and 80 GB HDD would cost me 540 €, the 2.0 GHZ version with Superdrive would cost about 200 € more, that means 750 €. Uhmm...
3 Mac Minis
when MM was first released I bought three of them for family and friends, they are still working great as family internet boxes. However a new 2.4GHz iMac has taken over as the main 'puter. I don't think I would rush out and buy three 'new minis' whatever the spec - and doesn't the iPhone 3G try and fill some of the MM space as a 'cheap' internet box? (I rushed out and bought one, can't afford 3!)
UK refurb store has a 1.83GHz MM for UK£ 329 (414) but this doesn't show up in the EU refurb stores. Loads of MBP's and quite a few MBA's on sale at present. iPod touch @UK£135 isn't too bad - I'm still waiting for the warehouse of Refurb iPhones to go on sale. Will this be after xmas??
when MM was first released I bought three of them for family and friends, they are still working great as family internet boxes. However a new 2.4GHz iMac has taken over as the main 'puter. I don't think I would rush out and buy three 'new minis' whatever the spec - and doesn't the iPhone 3G try and fill some of the MM space as a 'cheap' internet box? (I rushed out and bought one, can't afford 3!)
UK refurb store has a 1.83GHz MM for UK£ 329 (414) but this doesn't show up in the EU refurb stores. Loads of MBP's and quite a few MBA's on sale at present. iPod touch @UK£135 isn't too bad - I'm still waiting for the warehouse of Refurb iPhones to go on sale. Will this be after xmas??
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