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I've had it up to here *draws line 50 ft above my head* with people who refuse to accept that Apple has two seperate code bases, one for external seeds and one for internal.

Why? Because Microsoft has done it; and Microsoft is ALOT less secret than Apple.

When did they do this? Travel back to 2001 when XP was coming out. The new UI (can't remember for sure, was it code named Luna?) was not introduced until RC1 if I remember correctly (I was an official beta tester).

RC1!! Thats late in the process. Luna was a major internals change for UI rendering, yet they specifically pulled it out of prior builds to keep people in the dark.

Now think about this: People are complaining about how slow the fixes are coming in the seeds for "known issues". Ever stop to think they are already fixed? Maybe the newer versions of libraries with those fixes are DEPENDANT on libraries they aren't willing to introduce yet. Apple wouldn't take the time to back-port a fix to a developer seed when they are focused on moving forward.

Recently I read an article about Windows's code check-in process....it took a month on average for simple UI change code to get checked into the official build of windows for changing shut down buttons....because it goes thru localized builds, then team builds, and then finally gets scheduled for a merge with the full system. You have no idea how many things are fixed or features are added to Leopard that haven't made it up the check-in chain of command.

So yes, its possible and likely.
:apple:


of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).

when you change software, whether it's adding a new feature, fixing a big or removing something, that change cascades across the entire project. it is impossible for one engineer to anticipate how their change might affect the work of an entirely different department.

apple has the added responsibility of needing to appease developers as well, they cannot under any circumstance spring a release version of leopard on the public that breaks 3rd party apps. for one thing it's just bad practice, but apple really pissed off developers in the 90's, they can't afford to make the same mistake again.

bottom line, are there internal builds? yes, absolutely. do those internal builds have some new features? maybe. do they have a new UI? maybe. is the internal build at release quality stage? absolutely not.

if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.
 
of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).

I think you are wrong; having been a Microsoft beta tester, I know large features can be thrown in last minute. It happens, get over it. So what if it hasn't happened on the betas you've been on, it has in large products because companies do it to hold onto surprises. It generates PR. Large corporations don't care about bugs as much as they do free press. If they announce all their features early, the buzz will have died off.

The fact remains, apple can and most likely does have a internal build with major changes that seed users do not have. That is a fact of life. And I don't think Steve Jobs or Steve Balmer will decide not to ship because you fly over there and tell them not to. These guys have their own list of show stoppers; after that it goes to the first maintanance release.
 
I've always said that I wanted a stable release, but I didn't want to wait until June.

Even if they end up having to push it on until later, I'll be disappointed, but not mad. It still can't wind up being as bad as Vista's delay timetable.

I'm sure that on a per-capita basis (percentage of users of each OS) you'll find that the number of people who jump right into Leopard will be huge compared to adopters of Vista. And even those who actually wait for 10.5.1 for first round of bug fixes will probably be updating long before Vista's first service pack makes it out.

On the same per-capita scale I'm sure the total percentage of Leopard + Leopard .1 adopters will outpace Vista + Vista SP1 adopters, too, until enough new PC's are sold to overtake the numbers.
 
As much as I want Leopard, I can honestly wait. If it means making it more stable and working out bugs, then I am perfectly okay with waiting.
 
The way I figure it. If they are going to update FCP at NAB. They have to reveal Leopard by then because it would most likely have 10.5 core animation technology in it. Not to mention the iMacs NEED an update SOON.
 
My guess.

Leopard will be out in a couple months. Plus/minus a month? Does it matter? Not really. Sure I want it today but I don't expect it to be out this month.

Leopard will have some bugs. It's just something that's going to happen. How many major releases of operating systems come with no bugs at all? I'm not too worried - just as long as it doesn't format my drive. :p It'll start to stabilize around 10.5.2. Like usual.

As for the "top secret" features. Yeah, I assume they're going to be somewhat neat, but probably nothing amazing (although I'll gladly eat my words). All this talk about there being a build of Leopard that's way ahead of the latest developer build. Unlikely. Simply because they want bug reports from people. My guess as to how it works? I bet the internal builds are the same (just a little further ahead) as the developer releases but with a optional install for the "top secret" stuff. Hey, it could be something that simple!


And Wie Gehts, Rhapsody works on 8600s already! :p
 
All this talk about there being a build of Leopard that's way ahead of the latest developer build. Unlikely. Simply because they want bug reports from people. My guess as to how it works? I bet the internal builds are the same (just a little further ahead) as the developer releases but with a optional install for the "top secret" stuff. Hey, it could be something that simple!

How do you explain the "a" at the end of the latest build number?
 
if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.


Jeez I hope one of the secret features is an automated shift key for your sake! :) Not once in your entire post did you even think about reachin for it.
 
The developers do not need to be ready. Just like when they switched to Intel, the developers will need to follow...

Surely this is not good business practice....

Personally, I'm fine with tiger, I think it's for better than any other option that's available at the moment (as far as I am concerned). It doesn't make a difference for me whether apple releases it tomorrow, April June of September - I mean that I prefer Apple to release something that works 100% or as much close to that as possible.

On the other hand, after this long wait, apple needs to wow us with something that is 100% related to computers, not ipods and iphones.
 
On the other hand, after this long wait, apple needs to wow us with something that is 100% related to computers, not ipods and iphones.

Maybe an all new iMac design? I just bought an iMac so Apple should be coming out with a new one soon;) (Apple always comes out with a new version of the product I buy soon after I receive my item)... I hope iLife '07 and iWorks '07 is included with Leopard...

(I predict Leopard will be unveiled at the WWDC. (but I hope it comes out sooner))
 
i understand that the update is coming soon. great.

but why no .mac or ilife update. this is getting annoying.
 
To me this is both good and bad.

The good: If Leopard does not ship until June, fine. The wait gives me more time to save up for the Mac Pro I have been eyeing to get. By the time I get it, it will be loaded with a final release of 10.5.

The bad: I have to wait. More like I have to wait until June to finally upgrade my current system. Oh well.
 
To me this is both good and bad.

The good: If Leopard does not ship until June, fine. The wait gives me more time to save up for the Mac Pro I have been eyeing to get. By the time I get it, it will be loaded with a final release of 10.5.

The bad: I have to wait. More like I have to wait until June to finally upgrade my current system. Oh well.

hmm
loaded with the final release, as in gold master.......or final release, as in last point release before 10.6? :p
 
My guess at the timing of things.

I don't think new hardware and Leopard will wait until June, especially if Apple is going to maximize the publicity and not stretch customers' credit limits too far. Somehow, I can't see them dumping all this stuff on us in June. That seems crazy. :)

Because so much hardware is either overdue for updates or nearing it, I'm thinking there will likely be some Apple event in mid-April to unveil new machines along with a sneak peek at Leopard and its secret features. A release date for Leopard will be somewhere in late May or very early June.

WWDC and the iPhone afterward.
 
Why Leopard?

Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.
 
Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.

We don't need it at all. We currently have one of the best OS out there.
 
I've had it up to here *draws line 50 ft above my head* with people who refuse to accept that Apple has two seperate code bases, one for external seeds and one for internal.

Why? Because Microsoft has done it; and Microsoft is ALOT less secret than Apple.

When did they do this? Travel back to 2001 when XP was coming out. The new UI (can't remember for sure, was it code named Luna?) was not introduced until RC1 if I remember correctly (I was an official beta tester).

RC1!! Thats late in the process. Luna was a major internals change for UI rendering, yet they specifically pulled it out of prior builds to keep people in the dark.

Now think about this: People are complaining about how slow the fixes are coming in the seeds for "known issues". Ever stop to think they are already fixed? Maybe the newer versions of libraries with those fixes are DEPENDANT on libraries they aren't willing to introduce yet. Apple wouldn't take the time to back-port a fix to a developer seed when they are focused on moving forward.

Recently I read an article about Windows's code check-in process....it took a month on average for simple UI change code to get checked into the official build of windows for changing shut down buttons....because it goes thru localized builds, then team builds, and then finally gets scheduled for a merge with the full system. You have no idea how many things are fixed or features are added to Leopard that haven't made it up the check-in chain of command.

So yes, its possible and likely.

quoted for emphasis. a lot of ignorant talk in the thread, and mac rumors in general recently.
 
I'm sure Macpro release will be in april or late march. The question is: will apple decide to ship them with Leopard ? I think it would be commercialy more interesting to sell the new OS separately.
 
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