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Keeping up with OS X

I am certainly not a MS troll on this list, so please take this comment in the spirit in which it was intended: something intended not as propaganda or polemic, but simply to begin a debate. With these caveats duly noted . . . .

MS releases Excel which gradually is refined so that it knocks off Lotus.
MS releases Xbox which gradually is refined so that it assumes its place alongside PS and Nintendo.
Is anyone else concerned that Vista is catching up with OS X? I remember bumper stickers that said "Windows 98 = Mac OS 8.5" so I think it is a bit unfair to say that Vista hasn't been refined at all; clearly it has and it is an obvious rip-off of Tiger. If Leopard doesn't have any of the "secret features" that Steve hinted at last year, which is what I secretly fear, there will be less distinction between the current version of OS X and Windows than ever. Does this worry anyone else?

I do understand your concern, but first, let's take a good look at what MS has done both historically and strategically.

In 1983, MS offered to help IBM develop their own rival OS to Windows called OS/2, and IBM foolishly agreed to it. MS made certain that Lotus 1-2-3 ran much slower than Excel, and that OS/2 ran slower than Windows, forcing applications to interact with redundant layers of OS code, thus making Windows a more attractive OS while offering a seemingly more agile spreadsheet program within a complete office suite. Lotus was further sabotaged when Mitch Kapor was slow to allow Lotus to run on Windows.

MS formed agreements with all PC companies which guaranteed that Windows be the only OS to run on their computers. OS/2, crippled, was eventually strong-armed out of the PC marketplace. So, it's not that Excel was more refined, it's that Lotus 1-2-3 was slowly asphyxiated and indirectly pushed out of the market.

The same can be said for the success of Windows, QDOS, (Quick and Dirty Operating System) assembled AFTER IBM agreed to license an OS Bill Gates hadn't even possessed yet........Lots and lots and lots and lots of redundant code layered upon code with each iteration, this mountain of spaghetti called Windows 95 became a cheap and attractive (rip-off of Mac OS GUI) alternative for those using OS/2. As Windows became the imposed standard OS for PCs, consumers and businesses grew accustomed to the incessant blue screens of death and system freezes, and accepted this as an essential ritual to computing.

MS also strong-armed Netscape out of the picture by integrating it's own Explorer into Windows, forcing consumers to use it as their sole web browser. By doing so, however, MS invariably made Windows vulnerable to viruses and malware through the open portals needed for the browser and OS to operate in tandem.

Now, along oozes Vista, with no less than 50 million lines of code, more than 40% larger than the already bloated XP. Compare this to Leopard's less than 15 million lines of code. While Leopard is built upon a rock solid and proven foundation, UNIX, Vista is yet another heaping mound of spaghetti thrown on-top of an already towering mountain of stringy pasta. Highly inefficient and over-bloated, it does a very effective job at interrupting workflow in a continuous fashion, asking security questions every step of the way, such as "Are you sure you want to allow this action?" Do you give permission to move this file?" Are you absolutely certain about this?" "Are you aware.........??????

Will Vista succeed as an OS? Absolutely, as long as it is forced upon consumers who purchase new PCs. Will it succeed by its own virtues?
Not at all.... It will be considered "good enough" by consumers and businesses to get the job done, and nothing more.

All in all, MS has never been an innovative company, nor will it ever be. With all of it's revenue, innovation cannot be purchased. Historically, MS looks for something which seems to be successful, like the iPod, throws together a replica, without the refinement, and expects it to dominate the market.

As far as catching up to Leopard goes, Leopard will be quite a tough act to follow - remember that Longhorn, the original OS project for MS, was completely scrapped after six years of compiling. Vista, with all of its code and complication, is truly a salvage job, and is headed deeper and deeper into Bloatville. The distinctions between Vista and Leopard shall be quite MASSIVE, at the very least...
 
I do understand your concern, but first, let's take a good look at what MS has done both historically and strategically.

In 1983, MS offered to help IBM develop their own rival OS to Windows called OS/2, and IBM foolishly agreed to it. MS made certain that Lotus 1-2-3 ran much slower than Excel, and that OS/2 ran slower than Windows, forcing applications to interact with redundant layers of OS code, thus making Windows a more attractive OS while offering a seemingly more agile spreadsheet program within a complete office suite. Lotus was further sabotaged when Mitch Kapor was slow to allow Lotus to run on Windows.

MS formed agreements with all PC companies which guaranteed that Windows be the only OS to run on their computers. OS/2, crippled, was eventually strong-armed out of the PC marketplace. So, it's not that Excel was more refined, it's that Lotus 1-2-3 was slowly asphyxiated and indirectly pushed out of the market.

The same can be said for the success of Windows, QDOS, (Quick and Dirty Operating System) assembled AFTER IBM agreed to license an OS Bill Gates hadn't even possessed yet........Lots and lots and lots and lots of redundant code layered upon code with each iteration, this mountain of spaghetti called Windows 95 became a cheap and attractive (rip-off of Mac OS GUI) alternative for those using OS/2. As Windows became the imposed standard OS for PCs, consumers and businesses grew accustomed to the incessant blue screens of death and system freezes, and accepted this as an essential ritual to computing.

MS also strong-armed Netscape out of the picture by integrating it's own Explorer into Windows, forcing consumers to use it as their sole web browser. By doing so, however, MS invariably made Windows vulnerable to viruses and malware through the open portals needed for the browser and OS to operate in tandem.

Now, along oozes Vista, with no less than 50 million lines of code, more than 40% larger than the already bloated XP. Compare this to Leopard's less than 15 million lines of code. While Leopard is built upon a rock solid and proven foundation, UNIX, Vista is yet another heaping mound of spaghetti thrown on-top of an already towering mountain of stringy pasta. Highly inefficient and over-bloated, it does a very effective job at interrupting workflow in a continuous fashion, asking security questions every step of the way, such as "Are you sure you want to allow this action?" Do you give permission to move this file?" Are you absolutely certain about this?" "Are you aware.........??????

Will Vista succeed as an OS? Absolutely, as long as it is forced upon consumers who purchase new PCs. Will it succeed by its own virtues?
Not at all.... It will be considered "good enough" by consumers and businesses to get the job done, and nothing more.

All in all, MS has never been an innovative company, nor will it ever be. With all of it's revenue, innovation cannot be purchased. Historically, MS looks for something which seems to be successful, like the iPod, throws together a replica, without the refinement, and expects it to dominate the market.

As far as catching up to Leopard goes, Leopard will be quite a tough act to follow - remember that Longhorn, the original OS project for MS, was completely scrapped after six years of compiling. Vista, with all of its code and complication, is truly a salvage job, and is headed deeper and deeper into Bloatville. The distinctions between Vista and Leopard shall be quite MASSIVE, at the very least...

Nice post :D
 
I do understand your concern, but first, let's take a good look at what MS has done both historically and strategically.

In 1983, MS offered to help IBM develop their own rival OS to Windows called OS/2, and IBM foolishly agreed to it. MS made certain that Lotus 1-2-3 ran much slower than Excel, and that OS/2 ran slower than Windows, forcing applications to interact with redundant layers of OS code, thus making Windows a more attractive OS while offering a seemingly more agile spreadsheet program within a complete office suite. Lotus was further sabotaged when Mitch Kapor was slow to allow Lotus to run on Windows.

MS formed agreements with all PC companies which guaranteed that Windows be the only OS to run on their computers. OS/2, crippled, was eventually strong-armed out of the PC marketplace. So, it's not that Excel was more refined, it's that Lotus 1-2-3 was slowly asphyxiated and indirectly pushed out of the market.

The same can be said for the success of Windows, QDOS, (Quick and Dirty Operating System) assembled AFTER IBM agreed to license an OS Bill Gates hadn't even possessed yet........Lots and lots and lots and lots of redundant code layered upon code with each iteration, this mountain of spaghetti called Windows 95 became a cheap and attractive (rip-off of Mac OS GUI) alternative for those using OS/2. As Windows became the imposed standard OS for PCs, consumers and businesses grew accustomed to the incessant blue screens of death and system freezes, and accepted this as an essential ritual to computing.

MS also strong-armed Netscape out of the picture by integrating it's own Explorer into Windows, forcing consumers to use it as their sole web browser. By doing so, however, MS invariably made Windows vulnerable to viruses and malware through the open portals needed for the browser and OS to operate in tandem.

Now, along oozes Vista, with no less than 50 million lines of code, more than 40% larger than the already bloated XP. Compare this to Leopard's less than 15 million lines of code. While Leopard is built upon a rock solid and proven foundation, UNIX, Vista is yet another heaping mound of spaghetti thrown on-top of an already towering mountain of stringy pasta. Highly inefficient and over-bloated, it does a very effective job at interrupting workflow in a continuous fashion, asking security questions every step of the way, such as "Are you sure you want to allow this action?" Do you give permission to move this file?" Are you absolutely certain about this?" "Are you aware.........??????

Will Vista succeed as an OS? Absolutely, as long as it is forced upon consumers who purchase new PCs. Will it succeed by its own virtues?
Not at all.... It will be considered "good enough" by consumers and businesses to get the job done, and nothing more.

All in all, MS has never been an innovative company, nor will it ever be. With all of it's revenue, innovation cannot be purchased. Historically, MS looks for something which seems to be successful, like the iPod, throws together a replica, without the refinement, and expects it to dominate the market.

As far as catching up to Leopard goes, Leopard will be quite a tough act to follow - remember that Longhorn, the original OS project for MS, was completely scrapped after six years of compiling. Vista, with all of its code and complication, is truly a salvage job, and is headed deeper and deeper into Bloatville. The distinctions between Vista and Leopard shall be quite MASSIVE, at the very least...

EXCELLENT. Shut down the thread, case closed. :apple:
 
DMann has been correct in everything he has said about Microsoft.

In Microsoft's defense, someone had to be the standard. I'm sure if IBM's Lotus package won out over Microsoft's, we would be sitting here with a debate over how IBM's software was inferior, etc etc. Although I do not condone how Microsoft became the standard.

I wonder with Linux gaining popularity along with Macs if we will see a Unix based Windows OS in the next 20 years?
 
I do understand your concern, but first, let's take a good look at what MS has done both historically and strategically.

In 1983, MS offered to help IBM develop their own rival OS to Windows called OS/2, and IBM foolishly agreed to it. MS made certain that Lotus 1-2-3 ran much slower than Excel, and that OS/2 ran slower than Windows, forcing applications to interact with redundant layers of OS code, thus making Windows a more attractive OS while offering a seemingly more agile spreadsheet program within a complete office suite. Lotus was further sabotaged when Mitch Kapor was slow to allow Lotus to run on Windows.

MS formed agreements with all PC companies which guaranteed that Windows be the only OS to run on their computers. OS/2, crippled, was eventually strong-armed out of the PC marketplace. So, it's not that Excel was more refined, it's that Lotus 1-2-3 was slowly asphyxiated and indirectly pushed out of the market.

The same can be said for the success of Windows, QDOS, (Quick and Dirty Operating System) assembled AFTER IBM agreed to license an OS Bill Gates hadn't even possessed yet........Lots and lots and lots and lots of redundant code layered upon code with each iteration, this mountain of spaghetti called Windows 95 became a cheap and attractive (rip-off of Mac OS GUI) alternative for those using OS/2. As Windows became the imposed standard OS for PCs, consumers and businesses grew accustomed to the incessant blue screens of death and system freezes, and accepted this as an essential ritual to computing.

MS also strong-armed Netscape out of the picture by integrating it's own Explorer into Windows, forcing consumers to use it as their sole web browser. By doing so, however, MS invariably made Windows vulnerable to viruses and malware through the open portals needed for the browser and OS to operate in tandem.

Now, along oozes Vista, with no less than 50 million lines of code, more than 40% larger than the already bloated XP. Compare this to Leopard's less than 15 million lines of code. While Leopard is built upon a rock solid and proven foundation, UNIX, Vista is yet another heaping mound of spaghetti thrown on-top of an already towering mountain of stringy pasta. Highly inefficient and over-bloated, it does a very effective job at interrupting workflow in a continuous fashion, asking security questions every step of the way, such as "Are you sure you want to allow this action?" Do you give permission to move this file?" Are you absolutely certain about this?" "Are you aware.........??????

Will Vista succeed as an OS? Absolutely, as long as it is forced upon consumers who purchase new PCs. Will it succeed by its own virtues?
Not at all.... It will be considered "good enough" by consumers and businesses to get the job done, and nothing more.

All in all, MS has never been an innovative company, nor will it ever be. With all of it's revenue, innovation cannot be purchased. Historically, MS looks for something which seems to be successful, like the iPod, throws together a replica, without the refinement, and expects it to dominate the market.

As far as catching up to Leopard goes, Leopard will be quite a tough act to follow - remember that Longhorn, the original OS project for MS, was completely scrapped after six years of compiling. Vista, with all of its code and complication, is truly a salvage job, and is headed deeper and deeper into Bloatville. The distinctions between Vista and Leopard shall be quite MASSIVE, at the very least...

Wow, you broke it down shotgun style...
 
End Of May More Likely, Even June Wouldn't Surprise Me

Getting back to the crux of this thread, I don't see how Leopard will be ready for sale before the end of May. Anytine sooner would surprise me and a delay into June would not disappoint me. I'm sure they want to get it done ASAP since all of their hardware refreshes now appear to be linked to it. Most savvy Mac buyers won't buy their next Mac or even their first Mac until it ships with Leopard and iLife '07 on board. But I'm also sure they want to get it right with the fewest possible bugs remaining in 10.5.0. Then they can mop up to 10.5.1 by July-August.
 
as far as i'm aware, apple have always given a 'full' preview in advance of release...i mean it took them a year to fully release 10.0 after the 'full' preview at a macworld/wwdc, i forget which.(yes i know it was a different kettle of fish moving from OS9 to OSX, but still, the point remains).

atm theres a lot of dispute over release dates...jan?feb?march?april?may?june?ever?! ...

as i've mentioned in other threads, i'm thinking that apple is going to make something of the first few days of april, be that with hard-, soft- or vapour- ware we shall find out. But i've started to think that apple are going to preview leopard 'in full' at this time.If they do, it could tally with the fact that apple haven't seemed to have fixed any bugs on the dev. seeds of 10.5, because a new seed, more like the full internal build (maybe with some/all of the "top secret" features), would be released after this showcase in early april.

my two pence/cents/centimes/drachma/lera/lei/rupals/yen/uan...
 
Leopard Release In Mid/Late April?

Not in March. Way not ready this month. April? Maybe Friday April 27th. That's still very soon for what looks like it's still pretty buggy. :eek:

i think it will all come down to how much of most of the planned feature set is near ready. Surely somethings will need more time, and those will be addressed with 10.5.x.

For now I think the MR Admn, should just toggle this 'rumor' with the other on a weekly basis (as neither seem any more credible than the other) from pg2. to front page, and back :). Then as March ends, we can do the same scenario with April/May and so on...until the rumors of GM hit, then we have something to look forward to. Until then...snooze fest, IMO.
 
Should I wait for Leopard?

I am switching from a PC to a Mac. I was all ready to buy a 20 inch imac and then I started reading about the operating systems and everyone was saying to wait for Leopard. I was really excited about switching over and now am kind of bummed that I will have to wait...who knows how long???So...if I go ahead and buy the mac now, what will it hurt? I think I can buy Leopard for a little over a hundred dollars after it comes out. Would it be better to do that? Won't there be bugs in the first version of Leopard? Would it be better to wait until it has been around a while...and then buy it? Also, I was planning to buy Office for Macs. Should I wait for the new version of that as well? What is the deal about waiting for a native application??? I'm not sure what that means. I can get an educator's discount through the Apple Store...so that seems like the cheapest route for me. Right now, they are offering several promotions...like Final Cut for $99 and a free printer. Will those deals be gone after Leopard comes out? I guess I am asking if I would be better off buying now and updating to Leopard after it's been around a few months. HELP!!! The more I read, the more confused I get.
 
I am switching from a PC to a Mac. I was all ready to buy a 20 inch imac and then I started reading about the operating systems and everyone was saying to wait for Leopard. I was really excited about switching over and now am kind of bummed that I will have to wait...who knows how long???So...if I go ahead and buy the mac now, what will it hurt? I think I can buy Leopard for a little over a hundred dollars after it comes out. Would it be better to do that? Won't there be bugs in the first version of Leopard? Would it be better to wait until it has been around a while...and then buy it? Also, I was planning to buy Office for Macs. Should I wait for the new version of that as well? What is the deal about waiting for a native application??? I'm not sure what that means. I can get an educator's discount through the Apple Store...so that seems like the cheapest route for me. Right now, they are offering several promotions...like Final Cut for $99 and a free printer. Will those deals be gone after Leopard comes out? I guess I am asking if I would be better off buying now and updating to Leopard after it's been around a few months. HELP!!! The more I read, the more confused I get.


The way I see it, there are only two reasons to wait.

1) Who knows, they might release nicer / updated systems around the same time, or between now and then.

2) You don't want to buy Leopard separately, and would prefer to have it come with the machine.

I'm cheap, so I'll wait if it means getting everything for one price. But, if the $100 isn't that big of an issue, then go ahead and buy a machine now, and get the update later.

Who knows, you could buy a machine now, and have a new model released shortly after. But, that could happen any time.

Historically speaking, the machines are due for an update. But, the only reason to wait is if you think that you might want the updated version, and it's worth the wait to you.

In the end, it's all your decision. Buy now, and start using it today. Or, wait a bit, and get some newer stuff included in the price. That's the basic difference.

As for bugs, I moved to 10.4.0 right when it was released, and never had a problem. I don't expect 10.5.0 will be any worse.
 
i think leopard will be announced mid may, but not released until early june, just because they can and like to see us suffer.....
:eek: :eek:

i will get whatever SR comes with.
 
Now, along oozes Vista, with no less than 50 million lines of code, more than 40% larger than the already bloated XP. Compare this to Leopard's less than 15 million lines of code. While Leopard is built upon a rock solid and proven foundation, UNIX, Vista is yet another heaping mound of spaghetti thrown on-top of an already towering mountain of stringy pasta.

Sorry, your history doesn't support you contention. Vista is a re-write. Just because it's big doesn't mean it is in any way the same tangled mess of Windows 98 or XP because it isn't revision n of the same old OS.

Vista is a big bloated pig, but not in the way way that past MS OSes were.

Vista is also a slick OS when given enough physical resources. Vista has been met with luke-warm response so far but I suspect it will be the must have after SP1 later this year. Under all that useless eye-candy there are a lot of solid under-the-hood features that we plan to use, like significantly improved User Directory syncing and root-less terminal server windows, just like in xWindow.

Oh, almost forgot.. I'll think of that "rock solid and proven foundation" the next time my Network stack or Finder hang my machine up. Just because the foundation is solid.. that doesn't mean the wall don't have cracks.

ffakr.
 
Sorry, your history doesn't support you contention. Vista is a re-write. Just because it's big doesn't mean it is in any way the same tangled mess of Windows 98 or XP because it isn't revision n of the same old OS. ...

No, Vista isn't a rewrite of Windows 98... Actually, Vista is a rewrite of NT (released '93), as was XP. So yes, it's a bloated rev. of the same old OS M$ has been using for a good while.
 
I'm totally hoping for a Leopard release on the 24th.

My Dad wants a 24 inch iMac but I told him to wait for Leopard so he told me to tell him when Leopard comes out so he can finally go ahead and get a Mac. Well Apple has be all TOP-SECRET with their release date so it's a guessing game as to when they will release Leopard. All I know is it will be released before June but that's a while from now.
 
Getting back to the crux of this thread, I don't see how Leopard will be ready for sale before the end of May....

May/June would be seem to be the ideal time-frame for Apple, if they wanted to capitalize on Leopard's release, since Apple could probably to able to release new Santa Rosa based systems at the same time.
 
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