Mac OS X Lion: Drops PowerPC Emulation, Adds QuickTime Pro Features, Much More

[2499723]

I'm going to miss Rosetta. There were some fun games I used to like to play that came out between OS9 and Intel chips, but oh well. My main concern is that I can still play my 68k games from back in the day and Sheepshaver works well for this (just not the most intuitive of installations). Some guy on the 'interwebs' produced a single executable program called 'Classic' that did all the work for you and it is fantastic! If I can find the link, I'll post it, but no promises...

 

[manu chao]

I have a substantial investment in software that is PPC based. Much of that software has no update to Intel, which would mean needing to find a replacement that could do something similar and then learning to work with that in place of my older software.

Then you are using software that has been abandoned by the developer. These things can break with any software update. Even a point update could kill them at any moment, even a security update.

Any software can break at any moment, you either freeze your system or bank on updates when the breakage appears.

 

[manu chao]

Development of software that took advantage of Snow Leopard features was significantly delayed (and sometimes hasn't happened yet) because many computers couldn't upgrade to Snow Leopard. If a significant number of my customers cannot upgrade to Lion, then the software that I write will not be updated. Simple as that. Leopard will be Apple's Windows XP.

And why Leopard, why not Tiger or Snow Leopard? What makes Leopard stand out?
Isn't it just that people that keep their computers running for 5+ years simply will usually always be one OS version behind?

 

[Stiksi]

C'mon this is Apple. They've been doing this for the whole century. Are you all THAT surprised?

Mac OS X is based EXACTLY on throwing to the bin every single outdated piece of everything, and bringing support for the latest iterations of the as-closed-as-they-can hardware.

Do you really think Apple could make such a perfect OS keeping all the backwards compatibility and being open to any kind of hardware as Microsoft does?

There MUST be some drawbacks here, this is not a fairy tale, but software engineering. If you want to run applications from the 90s buy a PC and realize what this story is all about.

1. Mac OS is not perfect by a long shot.

2. Dropping Rosetta is not connected AT ALL to Apple's "going forward" policy. It will not complicate their code, it will not bloat the system. It can be an optional install, like it was in Leopard, like it is in Snow Leopard. It is a self-contained app.

3. We are not surprised. Just disappointed at a very stupid decision. Apple is not only cutting back hardware and software support, it's cutting whole industries out of the Mac ecosystem. Some people WILL be forced to move to Windows however much they hate it. Windows is a mess, but if I have to use it to do my work properly, I'll use it. I know there are tons of people here who think it's ok for macs to become "the consumer machine" and only do a limited range of fun things, but I don't think so.

I'm very concerned about the direction Apple is taking because I have a lot of money invested in Apple hardware. I think we'll come to a crunch point within a few years when we'll see where all this is taking us.

 

[lars666]

Could some Lion developer do me a favor and test if this MacMP3Gain version works with Lion?? (including a file gain, not only open the program)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9226287/MacMP3Gain.zip

I ported the AACGain file from PPC to Intel with "XCode" and "MacPorts" (not really knowing what I am doing, to be honest, just after instructions). I really depend on MacMP3Gain and it would ease my mind to already know that it works fine ... Thanks!

 

[manu chao]

This is completely illogical. There is no need for Apple to drop rosetta support. The fact is that there are many games which were never updated for intel. This is for a variety of reasons: developers aren't in business, source code is gone, game was just too old to develop anymore. Apple doesn't have to support individual applications. Rosetta worked fine just leaving it alone. The fact is that they didn't have to remove it.

Your last point makes no sense. You won't be able to run Snow Leopard on future computers.

But that's really the last straw for me. I'm not buying another computer from them.

If Rosetta worked just fine leaving it alone, why don't you just copy it over from your SL install to Lion. Then you can all show us how it is just working fine on Lion.
And have a look at this list of Camino versions and OS X versions they run on: http://caminobrowser.org/download/
Surely the Camino team could make run Camino 2.0 on all versions of OS X if they just wanted. But they are an evil corporation that is just out to make money with no concern for its users.

 

[manu chao]

2. Dropping Rosetta is not connected AT ALL to Apple's "going forward" policy. It will not complicate their code, it will not bloat the system. It can be an optional install, like it was in Leopard, like it is in Snow Leopard. It is a self-contained app.

Keep dreaming, Rosetta does not use any frameworks or APIs, is just a self-contained C app similar to a 'Hello World' app. That is why we can just copy over the binary from a SL installation to a Lion one or at worst copy the installer and run it.

 

[Yebubbleman]

- PowerPC (Rosetta) emulation is no longer offered. That means if you have any PowerPC applications they won't be able to run in Mac OS X Lion. You can determine if you are still running PowerPC applications by going into Applications -> Utilities -> System Profiler -> Applications and viewing "By Kind". This will show you which applications you have that are running under PowerPC. Rosetta had already become an optional install in Snow Leopard, and it appears Apple will be removing support for it entirely in Lion.

Not cool, Apple! I still want to be able to run things like Office 2004 and original StarCraft, two things that run beautifully on Snow Leopard today.

 

[Stiksi]

Keep dreaming, Rosetta does not use any frameworks or APIs, is just a self-contained C app similar to a 'Hello World' app. That is why we can just copy over the binary from a SL installation to a Lion one or at worst copy the installer and run it.

Heaven forbid Apple should actually allow a 3rd party developer, who actually has an incentive, to update their app for the new OS.

Apple has a big enough margin on products to pay for this licencing, which we as buyers pay for anyway.

 

[KnightWRX]

Anyone whining about Rosetta : Don't upgrade. There, easy enough. Most of my DOS based games don't work on Windows anymore (and some even broke with Windows 95!) because of some weird arcane memory management that Microsoft's emulation does not support. Thank god for DOSBox, using DOS 6.22 bootdisks was a pain.

That being said, there's a very good reason to drop Rosetta :

$ file Cocoa
Cocoa: Mach-O fat file with [B]3 architectures[/B]
$ pwd
/System/Library/Frameworks/Cocoa.framework/Versions/A

If you don't understand what this means, bummer for you. It basically means Apple is tired of supporting PPC for their entire framework and making sure they don't break the build/runtime. This adds significant development and Q&A time. Thems the breaks like they say.

So keep an old Mac around or Snow Leopard in a VM. As for that other guy with RAID arrays : dude, the company still exists. Send them an e-mail and if they don't reply, don't buy their products anymore. It's not like there's only 1 choice of RAID array around, especially for 2x1TB... Mine uses a web application.

Not cool, Apple! I still want to be able to run things like Office 2004 and original StarCraft, two things that run beautifully on Snow Leopard today.

Question, when Apple ships Lion and the first copy is sold and paid for, how much time does it take for Snow Leopard to crash and refuse to boot on every Apple computer everywhere ?

From hearing some of you guys talk, the answer seems to be : less than 10 seconds.

 

[Carniphage]

Anyone whining about Rosetta : Don't upgrade. There, easy enough.

Oh no. I am agreeing again.

C.

 

[dave-tx]

How easy is it to get an older version of OS X running as a virtual machine in VMWare or Parallels? That'd be a very satisfactory workaround (for me personally) to keep using Rosetta.

 

[iEdd]

Just upgraded Photoshop from CS to CS5, so I guess I don't need Rosetta anymore...

Of course, this is the Mac, not the iPhone, so until there comes a time where the Finder is gone and the Mac only has a desktop of Apps and a closed appstore, we can probably safely assume that there will be plenty of 3rd party software/hacks to fix anything we don't like about Lion.

Btw, is Lion a stepping stone to 10.8 where Mac OS X will be just black and white? What the hell was wrong with a bit of colour in Finder and iTunes?

 

[Stiksi]

Just upgraded Photoshop from CS to CS5, so I guess I don't need Rosetta anymore...

Of course, this is the Mac, not the iPhone, so until there comes a time where the Finder is gone and the Mac only has a desktop of Apps and a closed appstore, we can probably safely assume that there will be plenty of 3rd party software/hacks to fix anything we don't like about Lion.

Btw, is Lion a stepping stone to 10.8 where Mac OS X will be just black and white? What the hell was wrong with a bit of colour in Finder and iTunes?

CS5 has PPC parts that are left over from previous versions. I don't know how essential these are but at the minimum, some functions will cease to work unless Adobe starts feeling charitable, which is about as likely as Apple lowering their profit margin.

I usually steer clear of hacks, because they always seem to break something else, for instance: I installed Parallels and Quick look stopped working for certain file types. Worked again after uninstalling.

 

[Gurubarry]

I got pissed off when SL refused to work my FTE ..... I have kept my old imac and wont be buying any more macs again .... I'm a (fully) satisfied customer with my imac and mini ...but at what price ?

To paraphrase my favourite movie scene " Piss on yew , I'm (NOT) workin' for Steve Jobs "

 

[phil909]

no rosetta = fail.

 

[BornAgainMac]

Hope there's an alternative to MacTheRipper. then. And not worrying about apps' states? Bring it on. I love not having to save in iMovie, and if I didn't need to close it either it'd be dandy.

I was a huge fan of the old Mactheripper but disappointed in the PPC thing. I found RipeIt has been a perfect Intel replacement of MactheRipper. It is also more Mac like. Still fond of the name of Mactheripper though.

 

[gnasher729]

And why Leopard, why not Tiger or Snow Leopard? What makes Leopard stand out?
Isn't it just that people that keep their computers running for 5+ years simply will usually always be one OS version behind?

Leopard is the last version of MacOS X that runs on PowerPC. Upgrading the operating system version is a lot cheaper than replacing a computer. But upgrading a computer is still a lot cheaper than upgrading legacy software. That was the reason why people keep using Windows XP (far beyond what Microsoft wants them to do): Because upgrading legacy applications is very, very expensive. Removing Rosetta from 10.7 means lots of customers will _not_ upgrade. When new Macs ship with 10.7, these customers will not be able to upgrade PowerPC Macs anymore.

If you don't understand what this means, bummer for you. It basically means Apple is tired of supporting PPC for their entire framework and making sure they don't break the build/runtime. This adds significant development and Q&A time. Thems the breaks like they say.

These are legacy frameworks. Nobody at Apple is supposed to touch them. Nobody is supposed to rebuild them. Neither the x86, x86-64 part nor the PowerPC parts. Nobody is supposed to develop and test them.

 

[MrNomNoms]

Keep dreaming, Rosetta does not use any frameworks or APIs, is just a self-contained C app similar to a 'Hello World' app. That is why we can just copy over the binary from a SL installation to a Lion one or at worst copy the installer and run it.

Wrong; Rosetta requires PPC support to be compiled into the binaries - the lack of PPC support compiled into the binaries with Lion means that you cannot simply just 'drag and drop' the Rosetta app from Snow Leopard to Lion.

Please, for the love of Pete - do some research, you're making my head hurt.

 

[PlipPlop]

Wrong; Rosetta requires PPC support to be compiled into the binaries - the lack of PPC support compiled into the binaries with Lion means that you cannot simply just 'drag and drop' the Rosetta app from Snow Leopard to Lion.

Please, for the love of Pete - do some research, you're making my head hurt.

I think most people want it for old apps they have not new ones.

 

[Stiksi]

Anyone whining about Rosetta : Don't upgrade. There, easy enough.

Anyone whining about fuel prices, don't use it. Anyone whining about rising interest, don't take loans. Anyone whining about the government, move out of the country. (EDIT: In case someone didn't get it, these are examples of similar bad arguments)

Anyone whining about genuine criticism, get better arguments. I'm saying: "It's too soon, the field has not had time to adapt." You're basically saying: "Sucks for you!"

There is a significant PPC app user base with nothing to go to except Windows because it apparently doesn't pay to develop for Mac. Freezing your system is a bad option for a business – compatibility with other systems will decrease exponentially over time, the same tasks will take more and more time. It's called fragmentation, and it's not a good thing.

There's a crowd on this forum that'll say: "Good riddance, switch to PC, we'll be better off." Why will you be better off? Just because you will have a forum full of people who agree with you? I think it's sad if progress means you have to lower your expectations of what is possible on a mac. Two or three more years would probably have made a big difference. Peripherals don't last forever but they last more than a few years. PPC-based peripherals are still selling and they are in key positions for many users – right now there's nothing to replace them.

So, you either take a bad alternative and don't update, which will lead to ever increasing problems, or you switch platforms to something that won't periodically shoot it's own leg off. But that costs a fortune. I think I might have made a good short-term investment by switching to Apple five years ago, but a bad long-term one.

 

[Surreal]

Wrong; Rosetta requires PPC support to be compiled into the binaries - the lack of PPC support compiled into the binaries with Lion means that you cannot simply just 'drag and drop' the Rosetta app from Snow Leopard to Lion.

Please, for the love of Pete - do some research, you're making my head hurt.

Context is important. Look at what manu quoted.

 

[Surreal]

Anyone whining about fuel prices, don't use it. Anyone whining about rising interest, don't take loans. Anyone whining about the government, move out of the country. ....

really? that is a terrible extrapolation of the argument.

If you have a product you like and the 'new' version displeases you don't buy the new version. You have a thing, you choose not to replace it.

And it is possible to be happy about dropped PPC support without having 'lowered' expectations. legacy support is a resource drain and are necessary to a fault.

 

[Carniphage]

So, you either take a bad alternative and don't update, which will lead to ever increasing problems, or you switch platforms to something that won't periodically shoot it's own leg off. But that costs a fortune. I think I might have made a good short-term investment by switching to Apple five years ago, but a bad long-term one.

So you basically want a technology company to progress and release ever new improved technology while simultaneously never breaking legacy software that was not even compiled for the CPU architecture you now own?

There's a cost to doing that. And it is a cost that is shared by every user.

There are two views.

The first is to slash and burn, destroy backward compatibility at every step and leave the stragglers to die in the wilderness. The development is focussed on current new users and every effort is for their benefit.

And there is the leave-no-user-behind view. Where backwards compatibility is preserved at all cost. But the overall performance and progress of the platform is compromised by this goal.

And then there is a sensible middle ground.

C.

 

[KnightWRX]

These are legacy frameworks. Nobody at Apple is supposed to touch them. Nobody is supposed to rebuild them. Neither the x86, x86-64 part nor the PowerPC parts. Nobody is supposed to develop and test them.

Cocoa is a legacy framework ?

I think you need to explain a bit here...