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<snip>If one were to put OS X on random hardware, it would be like everyone building go carts with different parts but they all use the same engine. The transmission and the frame of the car likely wouldn't be optimised for the engine and will fall apart after a while.
Consider your scenario of only one engine like this:
One builder is limited to using drive trains, chassis, etc. that he designs and builds. All other builders are free to choose from the entire universe of hardware except that produced by the "closed system" builder.

Don't you think that it is most likely that one or more (many?) of the independent builders will build units with performance that is better than the "closed system" builder.

Take the example back to computers. The independent builders can much more easily optimize their systems for speed, or capacity, stabiliy, efficiency, cost, etc., and can easily customize the mix of all these factors and others.

Give me hardware and software independence any day! Maybe we should all take another look at the 1984 Mac TV commercial. It seems to me that for many Mac users, Apple has become Big Brother.

It IS possible! Think independently!
.
 
:rolleyes:
 

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Take the example back to computers. The independent builders can much more easily optimize their systems for speed, or capacity, stabiliy, efficiency, cost, etc., and can easily customize the mix of all these factors and others.

The problem with your example is that it works the exact opposite of how you said. Apple as a company does have access to whatever components it wants to use. It's us, the end user, who does not (should we want to use OS X).

However, as far as optimizing our systems for speed, capacity, stability, efficiency, cost, etc., Apple is the one that worries about that. Not the consumer. OS X as a product is optimized to run on Apple-built hardware. The end user doesn't really have anything to optimize for themselves on their own hardware setup, unless they're building their own operating system. So Mac software is optimized for Apple's hardware, and it's because OS X is locked into Apple's hardware that makes it perform so well.

Now you may have meant something else. Perhaps you meant optimization, say, between a gamer who wants to optimize his rig for graphics and cpu performance vs. a photographer who wants to optimize his setup to have as much storage and memory as possible. You're right, that Apple's vertical integration model isn't quite as good when it comes to things like that. However, that's the cost of using OS X. Part of the reason it's such a stable, smooth operating system is due to the very fact that it's locked into a select group of hardware.

I agree that it's not always the best solution for some people, but when you look at the problem Windows has with drivers trying to support millions of combinations of hardware (and they've done a very admirable job, IMO), then I feel it's worth it. If I ever stopped feeling it was worth it, and decided I really needed to be able to choose my own hardware setup down to the chips, then I'd bite the bullet and build a computer to run a good Linux distro.
 
Don't get me wrong.....

Don't get me wrong.....

Apple builds beautiful hardware! Even their packaging is aesthetically pleasing. The new aluminum keyboards, and the MB Air are works of art!

Personally, the exterior appearance of my computer isn't very important, but when the covers come off it's a different story.

Most PC sellers, such as Dell, cut a lot of corners when it comes to the cost of their cases. Flimsy and inconvenient aluminum brackets, cheap plastic latches, etc. - - and why not? Most users never see the inside of their computers, and the complete box is discarded at upgrade time.

When the covers are taken off of the Mac Pro I'm treated to an eye pleasing sight; it's obvious that a great deal of care was given to designing and producing a quality product, and a product that is relatively easy to service.

I have built my own PCs since the CP/M days, and have always chosen high end boxes. Each box has lasted through many upgrades - - motherboards, hard drives, video cards, audio cards, etc. - - before being handed down to some one else.

I'd be more willing to spend the big bucks for a Mac Pro if it were upgradeable.
 
Overclocking shortening the life of your processor is an old wives tale, atleast for modern processors. As long as you dont go crazy with the voltage then the processor can handle it just fine since it was designed to handle it. The default voltage for processors are way too high to begin with and generate too much heat, I can overclock my processor by almost 1ghz and still get lower temps than I got default since I am able to lower the voltage by a large amount. Plus since Im using less voltage than default my overclocked processor will actually last longer (theoretically of course, I will have gotten rid of the comptuer years before that becomes an issue). The fan on the heatsink will die long before an overclocked processor with reasonable voltage.

Its very very difficult to kill a processor these days, you can actually remove the heatsink and still wont be able to kill it since they throttle themselves when they get too hot.

PC hardware is much better than a Macs. just now i overclocked my CPU from 2.04GHz to 2.30GHz
you must be using AMD...

I have my e4300 Core 2 Duo overclocked from 1.8ghz to 2.7 with no temperature gain on stock cooling and realtively cheap hardware. I have done 3.2ghz on stock cooling as well but its too hot and loud, I would need a better heatsink to go 3ghz. Its possible to get more than twice the performance out of a core 2 duo by overclocking it, AMD cant do that.
 
Consider your scenario of only one engine like this:
One builder is limited to using drive trains, chassis, etc. that he designs and builds. All other builders are free to choose from the entire universe of hardware except that produced by the "closed system" builder.

Don't you think that it is most likely that one or more (many?) of the independent builders will build units with performance that is better than the "closed system" builder.

Take the example back to computers. The independent builders can much more easily optimize their systems for speed, or capacity, stabiliy, efficiency, cost, etc., and can easily customize the mix of all these factors and others.

Give me hardware and software independence any day! Maybe we should all take another look at the 1984 Mac TV commercial. It seems to me that for many Mac users, Apple has become Big Brother.

It IS possible! Think independently!
.

Now you've go me thinking...What is Apple then, aside from making nice-looking, closed-system computers?
 
the system specifications for Macs are crap. their Motherboards are garbage and id prefer to use an AMD CPU rather than an intel. plus, Macs are waaaay too overpriced.

ive built an amazing rig on newegg for 1000$. and installing OS X86 is a real pain.

i think apple would make a lot of money if they released a PC version of their OS.

A definition from Wikipedia is: "Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in."

Indications for flamebait are the usage of derogatory terms like "crap", "garbage", "waaaay too overpriced", plus the totally unexplained preference for a processor manufacturer that (a) Apple isn't using and (b) is right now way behind.

so i guess apple makes money by ripping people off with their low performance rigs?

just like the iphone when it was overpriced by 100$...
wish i could have waited a couple of months before buying it :( i could really use that 100$

More indications for flamebait: Further derogatory terms like "ripping people off", "low performance rigs", "overpriced".

I don't really want to think about it :D If Apple becomes like Dell I'm going to have to give up computers completely, or go to Toshiba, because I'm not putting up with that kind of crap.

If you go to finance.yahoo.com, for example, you can make a nice comparison of Dell and Apple. If you ignore the iPods and iPhone, then Dell sells ten times more computers, makes four times more revenue, and half as much profit as Apple does (you can investigate a bit to get more precise numbers, but that is about the tendency). And Apple is very much on an up trend compared to the rest of the industry (there are some PC manufacturers that have enormous growth, but that is just shuffling the PC numbers around between manufacturers; it doesn't mean anything when you compare Macs to the PC industry as a whole). So this would show that if you take the computer business on its own, Apple's business model is more successful than Dells and therefore you shouldn't expect any change to Dell's model.

On top of that, Apple has enormous advantages from the synergy between Macs and its non-computer product lines iPod and iPhone, and switching to Dell-style computer sales would mean giving up a lot of that synergy and damaging one huge market (iPods) and one market with an incredible potential (iPhone).
 
what a moron...

so i guess apple makes money by ripping people off with their low performance rigs?

just like the iphone when it was overpriced by 100$...
wish i could have waited a couple of months before buying it :( i could really use that 100$


if apple's specs are crap, why has the macbook pro been the fastest laptop on the market for the last few years (until this year...it FINALLY got beat)

apple computers aren't overpriced either. you compare what you get with an apple pound for pound and spec for spec against a pc, you're paying the same price for a much better piece of equipment by going with the mac

this guy is just pissed because he's too freakin' cheap to spend the money on a good piece of hardware and keeps buying cheap crap
 
No, that isn't Apple's goal.


Apple does the whole package, software and hardware.

Some people like it, some don't.

Those you like it, buy a Mac, those who don't look elsewhere(or buy a Mac, and install whatever you please)

But to suggest that Apple should change its core bussiness around, when clearly that did work for them in the 90s, is crazy
 
Hmmmmm I Think That If Apple Created An OS That Will Work With The Rest Of The PC Components Then They Would Make A Good Deal Of Money From it Providing It Isn't As Expensive As Crapsta Sorry Vista. They Could Also Do With Making Final Cut, Aperture And Other Professional Software Cross Platform.

All They Have To Do Is Set Up A Small Group To Take Care Of It Just Like M$ Have Done With Office *Mactopia*.

But I Do Think That Apple Are Fine As The Are And Don't Need To Do This As I For One Will keep Buying From Them.

My Father Is Buying 25 iMacs For His Company After My Mum Bought Him A MacBook Pro For His Birthday (He Loved It So Much That He has Decided To Restructure The Whole Company ICT Network:eek:) So Some Companies Do Which.

Now I Wonder If What I Have Written Makes Semse To You All:confused:

Northy124
 
My mother always said "we are poor, we cannot afford to buy cheap things".

Yep. Its true though. I can rattle off tons of things I bought cheaply that are long gone and broken, but there are only a handful of things that have been around for a long time, and yes I paid much for them.
 
Thats not hard. Looking at newegg I can build a computer that is the same as the base model imac but with a .2ghz faster processor since I couldnt find a 2.0ghz processor (I just used the search so I dont even know if I have the cheapest 2.2ghz processor) and it comes to around $800 after a dell 20" widescreen and the cost of Leopard are factored in (and keyboard/mouse too, I made sure to be fair and chose a nice keyboard instead of a $5 one, the mightymouse is garbage though so I didnt care much about the mouse). If I went with XP/Vista OEM and an e4300 Core 2 Duo to overclock it up to 2.7ghz+ then I would save probably another $100.


They are cheaper but the cost:performance ratio isnt there like it is with the core 2 duos. Also they dont overclock as well, you could get a really cheap core 2 duo and overclock the hell out of it very easily giving you great value. AMD's quickly lose their value once you enter the price range of the cheapest core 2 duo. Theyre fine if you have less than $100 to spend on a processor, but once you spend $130 or more then Core 2 Duos are way better.



Try...saving about $30 over the mac. And think of this, if you purchase a PC, it comes full of bloatware. Do macs have any of that on them? NO!!! The reason PCs (if this were actually true) would be cheaper is because the pc manufacturers receive subsidies from companies to put "trial" bloatware on the PCs. I just built a PC to match Mac specs on a 2.0 gHz merom IMac. I saved a whopping $35...now I get to build my computer AND install all the software (and hope none of the parts are DOA). Wow, what a great savings!!!
 
Try...saving about $30 over the mac. And think of this, if you purchase a PC, it comes full of bloatware. Do macs have any of that on them? NO!!! The reason PCs (if this were actually true) would be cheaper is because the pc manufacturers receive subsidies from companies to put "trial" bloatware on the PCs. I just built a PC to match Mac specs on a 2.0 gHz merom IMac. I saved a whopping $35...now I get to build my computer AND install all the software (and hope none of the parts are DOA). Wow, what a great savings!!!
I don't consider Adobe Reader to be that bad on Windows.
 
Hmmmmm I Think That If Apple Created An OS That Will Work With The Rest Of The PC Components Then They Would Make A Good Deal Of Money From it Providing It Isn't As Expensive As Crapsta Sorry Vista. They Could Also Do With Making Final Cut, Aperture And Other Professional Software Cross Platform.

All They Have To Do Is Set Up A Small Group To Take Care Of It Just Like M$ Have Done With Office *Mactopia*.

But I Do Think That Apple Are Fine As The Are And Don't Need To Do This As I For One Will keep Buying From Them.

My Father Is Buying 25 iMacs For His Company After My Mum Bought Him A MacBook Pro For His Birthday (He Loved It So Much That He has Decided To Restructure The Whole Company ICT Network:eek:) So Some Companies Do Which.

Now I Wonder If What I Have Written Makes Semse To You All:confused:

Northy124


The Reason I Capitalize The First Letter Of Everyword Is So I Can Read It Back Better, So Everyone Stop Asking/Commenting On Why I Do It.

Couldn't you just have you're Mac read it to you? I mean, its kind of annoying, and since you're writing it, so we(MR users) can read it, it makes sense to do the thing which makes it easier for you're "target market" to read
 
@zap2 Not The Answer I Was looking For But The Mac Doesn't Do It And I Can't Work It Out Not That It Matters Now As I'm So Use To Doing It Like This.
 
My primary reason for wanting to run OS X on "standard" PC hardware is because of the configuration flexibility and lower cost.

It's pretty obvious that while Apple has a very limited number of configurations, Dell has many, and a custom builder can have an infinite variety of configurations.

As for price, I just now started pricing a Mac Pro versus a Dell 490 and found this:

Mac Pro
Base: $2799
2x 3.0GHz Quad Xeon: $1,600
4GB RAM: $540
total: $4939

Dell 490
Base: $1369
2x 3.0GHz Quad Xeon: $2,459
4GB RAM: $500
total: $2959

No real need to price-out the remaining options.

You know, I took a look at that too... configuring it to have 1 3.0GHz Xeon added like 1500 to the cost, the second one was something like 1750 more... kind of closes the gap wouldn't you say?
 
You know, I took a look at that too... configuring it to have 1 3.0GHz Xeon added like 1500 to the cost, the second one was something like 1750 more... kind of closes the gap wouldn't you say?

Yeah, the Dell 490 with two 3.0 Ghz Xeons and 4 Mb ram is actually about $5300.
 
My apologies to all.....

Along with the addition error, I don't know how I came up with those numbers - - I did use the Dell and Apple web sites, but when I saw those final numbers that should have been a clue that I'd gone wrong somewhere. I just now went to the Dell site and found that you can't even configure a 490 with two 3.0GHz CPUs.

Here is what I did get this time:
Dell T5400 base: $1489
1st 3.0GHz Quad: $1130
2nd 3.0GHz Quad: $1429
4GB RAM: $520
total: $4,568

Mac Pro base: $2799
two 3.0GHz Quads: $800
4GB RAM: $500
total: $4,099

Did I make another mistake?
 
I don't know if this was said already but the biggest reason why Macs are expensive (in my opinion) is you are paying for some type of piece of mind. Knowing that everything in my MBP was made by or for the specific use in a mac is comforting to me. I know that the OS was built to run perfectly with the hardware.

In a PC I was always worried that if I had to get a new Optical drive or something else, was it the right kind? will the OS accept it? that is not always the case, depending on the manufacturer of the PC. There are a lot and I mean a lot of 3rd party vendors that make hardware for PC's and I believe that is one of the reasons for instability of Windows. MS has to build Windows OS to accept anything that these manufacturers can put out and it doesn't work.

I would rather pay more money for a reliable system. And that's what I think Apple creates, reliable systems. If people don't like to spend that much get a PC with Vista on it. Vista is just a very, very cheap copy of OSX.

my opinion.

Peace:cool:
 
Who knows, seems like every time I go to the Dell website, it's rearranged itself to make stuff harder to find. ( And WTF is up with taking me to a survey page when I hit the back button?)

When I finally found the 490, the processor I used to configure earlier was no longer available as a second processor choice. I came out about $4500 this time.
 
Some mac users accuse M$ didn't totally re-write windows from scratch for vista. That sounds like a redo-ing everything with a still dominating 95% market product, why? They seems to think apple is the one who is "willing" to re-do from scratch.

Ive never seen a Mac user accuse Microsoft of not totally rewriting Windows from scratch for Vista.

I have seen Mac users accuse Microsoft of building a new OS that has blatantly ripped off features from OSX. On top of this Vista is generally more expensive than OSX and generally comes with way more problems than Leopard.

Just because Microsoft owns 95% of a market doesn't mean it can spew subpar products out (knowing that people will reluctantly just have to accept it because they are afraid of change to OSX/Linux or have no idea that OSX/Linux even exists).

Microsoft should be creating an OS with users in mind instead of rushing a product (Vista) to the market to combat a growing marketshare from its competitor (OSX).

Me personally, I will use any OS as long as it works well and is somewhat aesthetically pleasing. I have no problems owning a windows machine. I actually have both a MBP and an HP laptop with XP.
 
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