Mac OS X Tiger Notes

[AidenShaw]

It's not a myth for Windows. The x64 architecture has more registers than the old Intel 32bit architecture and chucks away a lot of the baggage from the Intel ISA that has held it back. It's quite a bit faster.

That's the theory, anyway....

So far, I haven't seen any good tests that show the improved performance due to the ISA changes. One set of tests in Dr. Dobbs showed very little improvement with 64-bit code.

On the Microsoft page it says "64-bit native applications can deliver more data per clock cycle, making them run faster and more efficiently".

This is mostly untrue because the internal busses are still 128 and 256 bits wide and the SSE registers are 128 bits. Even for 64-bit integers it's stretch, since SSE has 64-bit integer support. (http://www.hayestechnologies.com/en/techsimd.htm#SSE2)

 

[kirk26]

Apparently, stupid is the work of the day.

FWIW: I like the dock and I like Mail in 10.3. So do many people.

Apparently, spell check is the two words of the day.

 

[TorbX]

If you're not connected to the net, the registration won't go through, and you have to manually send it anyway.

However, I have no problem registering. I always do.

It goes through. Just wait it out, disconnecting the ethernet cable.

 

[aegisdesign]

That's the theory, anyway....

So far, I haven't seen any good tests that show the improved performance due to the ISA changes. One set of tests in Dr. Dobbs showed very little improvement with 64-bit code.

I've not seen that report. I take it that was on Windows?

I know a few people have been claiming you get about a 40% improvement on 64bit float maths and 10-15% on 32bit applications if the compiler uses the extra registers. That was running Gentoo though, not Windows, so if M$ have screwed that up it'd be a pretty amazing feat of non-engineering.

But yes, in theory, the larger set of registers and making them 64bit _should_ improve performance over IA32 if it's not hampered the compiler or the OS.

PowerPC didn't get a change in the architecture from 32bit to 64bit so doesn't see the same gains - we were already a fundamentally 64bit architecture from the start.

 

[TorbX]

About the drawer

Hello.

About the drawer in Panthers mail:

I did not like it. I did not like it at all. It had this bad habit of changing place. One day it was on the right side, the other on the left. I had no control. I hope Tigers mail drawer stays in place

 

[TorbX]

About the dock

Some people say they like the dock. Is there anything new about the Tiger's dock at all?

Enlight me

 

[AidenShaw]

I've not seen that report. I take it that was on Windows?

It was using Linux, and on both AMD64 and PPC970.

http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9570/ddj0503b/0503b.html

I know a few people have been claiming you get about a 40% improvement on 64bit float maths and 10-15% on 32bit applications if the compiler uses the extra registers.

You mean "32-bit arithmetic", right? AFAIK you cannot access the extra registers from a 32-bit compiled application.

That was running Gentoo though, not Windows, so if M$ have screwed that up it'd be a pretty amazing feat of non-engineering.

For compute-bound code, it depends mainly on the compiler - but since these tests were all on Linux the "amazing feat of non-engineering" would be the gcc compiler.

 

[AidenShaw]

[ server error ]

 

[Vulkan]

out of curiosity, does anyone know what bit torrent site this is talking about?

---NEVERMIND---
The site is a swedish tracker that is known for never taking legal threats seriously because there is some legal loophole in Sweden that doesn't follow much for international copyright laws.

Yes, but... if you don't know I can't tell you...

 

[Vulkan]

Could you imagine the server load the day it was released?

They could license STEAM to do it, from Valve...

Valve => Halflife 2

 

[DickArmAndHarT]

Mail.app

I like the mail.app in 10.3, if the window has more room on the left side when u open the drawer, it comes out that side and visa versa, instead of it comming out and getting cut off the screen then u have to move it over, and what a pain that is.

-I sit here typing this while thinking about my experince on a xp machine about 3 minutes ago, (brothers comp needed fixing) and how i couldnt stop little windows comming up, (system errors) and you hit okay but THEY DONT GO AWAY ,, Wow apple spoils us, as we sit here complaing about a tiny mail.app and the color of the buttons of direction of the drawer, Giggle Giggle

 

[i_am_a_cow]

Does anyone know if you can do text only instead of buttons in the new Mail.app?

Yes you can.

 

[i_am_a_cow]

Come on, you're just trying to justify the difference here.

There's no excuse for yet another UI style. It was a bad enough stretch when they made the Finder metal.

But the UI is the same, it simply looks slightly different, and that's why it's nice; you can quickly tell different windows apart without having to learn a new UI process.

 

[Lacero]

Dashboard bug

When you have multiple monitors, invoking the Dashboard brings the widgets flying into the screen from some far off corner. Looks terrible.

 

[usarioclave]

re: calculator

Works fine here.

Hmm, I poked around, and it seems I activated some of the calculator plugins some time in the past.

Removing the expressions and 2d calcview seems to have cleared it up.

Other things

* You can't launch the calculator from Dashboard.
* On multiple monitors, dashboard widgets come in from the top left of your desktop, not the top left of your main screen. I'm not sure, but that's probably a bug (they should fly out of the apple menu, not the top-left of your whole desktop).

 

[aegisdesign]

It was using Linux, and on both AMD64 and PPC970.

http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9570/ddj0503b/0503b.html

That's just comparing Java performance. Hardly a wide test.

You mean "32-bit arithmetic", right? AFAIK you cannot access the extra registers from a 32-bit compiled application.

No, I meant internally in 32bit applications but the compiler has to know it's compiling for the AMD64 still even in 32bit mode. It also depends on if the processor is running legacy 32bit or compatibility mode. There was a thread on ars technica a while back discussing how to 'trick' compilers in to ordering the code so it used the AMD64 to it's advantage rather than sticking with the 8 P6 registers with or without register renaming.

For compute-bound code, it depends mainly on the compiler - but since these tests were all on Linux the "amazing feat of non-engineering" would be the gcc compiler.

Well history shows it's possibly equally bad or worse than Intel or M$'s compiler tools so I'm not going to claim Linux is going to be better than Windows there.

My point was, without wanting to be an AMD poster boy here, if M$ can't get any extra performance out of the AMD64 then it's not the fault of the processor which does have some significant performance improvements. Whether the theory translates to reality is a different matter.

The '64bit myth' is largely a myth on the PPC970 as the PowerPC architecture was already decked out with full size registers, fixed size instructions that get easily scheduled and a decent number of registers. There's minor improvements in some areas because of a flat memory model but that's about it. Indeed, running 32bit code is often faster as it's less sparse and caches better. Cocoa in particular apparently - it's still 32bit in Tiger.

On the X64, the same minuses are there for 64bit code as we have on the Mac. The difference is, the architecture took a leap underneath it doubling registers and so enabling better optimisation of some routines. Microsoft were right in stating more instructions are processed per cycle - AMD say so, Hannibal on Ars Technica says so. On the whole, it should be an upside IF/WHEN there's 64bit applications to go with the OS. Thunking in and out of 32bit mode is going to be a small headache for now though not as bad as the old 16bit/32bit transition in Windows.



There's a very in depth description of the AMD Hammer architecture at http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/amd-hammer-family/ should you be very bored.

And on Ars Technica - http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/amd-hammer-1.ars

Anyway, can we talk about Macs again. I'm getting hives. ;-)

 

[geminister]

And Apple realizes that if you ever need to reinstall your OS, you might not want to have to register every time (or they might not want duplicate information in their database, etc.). Also, people might not want Apple to have their info (pirates asdie). It's a 2 way street. People may not want Apple contacting them or mailing them anything. Of course Apple might refuse to offer "support" in this case (though if you ever needed it you could probably just "register" at the time you experienced the problem)... But it's up to the customer which is nice. (Also, the customer could just enter bogus information anyway which is probably worse to apple than no info at all).

but what if you buy the os second hand? or buy a second hand computer? imho apple has no way of knowing which registrations actually are legit. so why should this be dangerous?

 

[h00ligan]

that is quite inaccurate, to say the least. the loophole only makes it legal for the tracker-sites to run as usual. the act of downloading/sharing a torrent isnt legal though, but it's quite hard to trace.

since the tracker-sites do not violate swedish law, they do not have to give away information about users to anyone.

i can understand why the tracker itself feels the need to ridicule these threats, because it is quite arrogant of all these american lawfirms not to check what the legislation is like in the country they send these letters to.

and when it comes to all other forms of copyright, sweden is in line with the international standards.

You're kidding yourself.. how is it hard to trace.. you just open a given torrent program and read all the ip's of the people from whom you are downloading.

getting nabbed with torrent is as easy as p2p.. maybe more so as you can get company specific faster.

I was really excited about tiger. but as it nears.. i have become indifferent.

 

[pigwin32]

But it's entirely inconsistent with the rest of the OS. AFAIK it's the only tool with that interface. And I'd expect the icons to move left if I collapse the 'drawer'.

So you're a switcher? Having icons in a consistent location is an important UI design element; it allows the icon location to be learned. When you first use the app you have to go looking for the icon. After you've been using it for a while its location becomes second nature.

I've personally never had a problem with the old drawer metaphor or it's implementation. I've never clicked the wrong application because the drawer doesn't extend all the way up to the titlebar. You also don't seem to understand how they work. If you've still got access to a 10.3 machine, close the drawer, then pick up a mail from your open mailbox and then drag it to the side of the window pane - the drawer slides open for you to drop your mail into a folder. When done it slides away again. That is really cool if you don't want mail taking up masses of screen estate.

You're obviously far more intelligent than I am. Fortunately I have a 15" TiBook so screen real estate isn't really an issue. Personally I prefer to have the drawer open so I can drop mail into folders without having to wait for the drawer to open.

Because now we've got the same three pane classic old style mail application with a grey title bar and grey buttons with icons on and the folders on the left whereas before it looked like an OSX application, not a reskinned copy of Outlook with graphite buttons. The folders were on the right, putting what was important, your mail, in front of you reading from the left. It was a well thought out piece of human interaction.

Last time I checked, Mail is a three pane classic mail application, I'm not sure where you're going with this one. BTW, Outlook also allows you to show/hide the folders bar. Of course with Outlook it's recommended you don't use the preview option, accidentally selecting an email that contains malware can be disastrous.

Go look at the screenshot posted earlier of Mail with Preview behind it. That's two interface styles, and Preview rocks IMHO. And then we've got the iTunes/Finder metal style.

Yep, no argument there, Apple can't seem to get it's own apps to look the same. Too many smart people spoil the interface?

 

[gadget-uk]

OK, moving on from piracy..... and back to Tiger itself.

There seems to be some general confusion about what makes it so special and why SJ would say that it's Apple's most important release since the original Macintosh in 1984. The apple site says there are over 200 "new" features but having had a quick scan of these it's clear that the majority are just updates - and iterative updates at that, there is very little groundbreaking going on.

I'm sure Spotlight is excellent and clever and will make old-fashioned "brute force" searching seem pre-historic, but to be honest I rarely have to search my computer - I know where most things are because I file them carefully. I can imagine that developers and artists will find it invaluable though, so I'll give Tiger that one.

Dashboard looks to be very pretty, I'm sure it'll get the biggest "oooo" for Tiger and with so many people talking about bedroom widget development there is bound to be a tool for every job... but nothing that couldn't be done already with a bit of XML, HTML, Applescript surely? Desktop weather, stock, news, google... etc have been available for ages on Mac and windoze too. I'll grant you that Dashboard will consolidate these and make them all tres joli but it's not earth shattering and I can't see much longevity in any but the best few widgets.

That's about it really, RSS beendone, iChatAV beendone... I know there are other things going on under the hood, some of which will mean more to some people than others but claiming 200+ "new" features is dodgy marketing if you ask me. New Quicktime codecs, web-page archiving and some new desktop pictures don't make this worth $130 hard-earned or the "biggest thing since the original Mac" accolades.

Don't get me wrong, I've got it on pre-order and I'll be enthusiastically upgrading the minute it arrives, I just don't see what all the fuss is about - is it just a case of "up yours, Bill" or am I missing something fundamental? Will Tiger change my life?

 

[Colonel Panik]

With any purchase you make, you get a warranty for a certain number of days. The registration, apart from providing some statistical data for Apple to play with, is a way of telling Apple that you bought your copy on this date. Then they don't have to support you if you call with a problem 91 days later.

David Pogue, in one of his books, recommends that you don't register until you need support. At that point you can say that you've just purchased the software.

 

[h00ligan]

With any purchase you make, you get a warranty for a certain number of days. The registration, apart from providing some statistical data for Apple to play with, is a way of telling Apple that you bought your copy on this date. Then they don't have to support you if you call with a problem 91 days later.

David Pogue, in one of his books, recommends that you don't register until you need support. At that point you can say that you've just purchased the software.

right, which is why you tell your parents and other computerly challenged, not to register until they really have to call.. and say they just bought it.

 

[The Truth]

Has anyone else noticed that Safari 1 was able to access many more pages than Safari 2? I keep getting the "page not found" messages yet the pages open fine in Internet Explorer.

 

[jblakeh1]

I'm not installing Tiger on my current Powerbook - it's time to upgrade my hardware. Does anyone have any idea if I'll be able to walk out of the Apple Store tiger event tomorrow with a Powerbook with Tiger, or are they going to expect me to pay the up-to-date fee and wait for the disc to arrive? If so I won't be happy...

Update: I went to the Apple Store at lunch and asked... they'll include a tiger dvd. Woo hoo!