MP 1,1-5,1 Mac Pro 4.1 5.1 advice sought

[andrew nz]

Hello All Mac Pro enthusiasts

I am in a position when I can finally purchase one of these models.
Before I commit, I request some expert advice to support upgrades and development and compatibility with my typical uses.
On the Mac side I use my preferred workflow and now some photo editing software requires 10.15 or later minimum.
On the windows side, I use this for gaming and videos only.

CPU
I understand the 4.1 model has dual processors and the 5.1 is a single processor.
Considering I would upgrade the CPU to multiple cores, can someone advise if a 12 core single processor 5.1 has performance advantage over a 4.1 dual upgraded 12 core processor? Does it matter?
I would intend to firmware upgrade a 4.1 to 5.1 with some other considerations as follows:



GPU
Typically I use 3 monitor setup.
My boot monitor uses Radeon 2600XT which works for Windows and Mac. i could use GT120 instead if installed.
My main monitors would likely use AMD 580X 8G or better and I am not sure which GPU to install; however AMD seems to be the better choice if I have to hack a later Mac OS.
If the card supports 60Hz or better refresh rate also good , but newer gaming monitors have 144Hz refresh and a card which would support that is good, but not essential but must work on both Mac and Windows.
I do not game on the Mac side so some features other that typical workflow and web use, videos etc.
Hardware acceleration probably essential.

Which main monitor(s) GPU to choose and which should work well with Mac OS 10.15+ and Windows 10/11?
It does not have to be mac flashed.


OS's

Mac OS
Likely 10.15+ or newer to take advantage of processor speed and requirement for newer softwares.
Which Mac OS is the more stable if 10.15 would be the minimum? What to be aware and what to avoid?
I do not want to brick the mac if i have to hack a later Mac OS install to make it operate.


Windows10/11
i successfully native installed Windows 10 in legacy boot mode on my Mac Pro 2.1. Here.

I would attempt something similar on the 4.1/5.1 and perhaps Windows 11 if anyone has tried or can advise.
I do not want the Windows installer to attempt any firmware modification so I think legacy boot for what its worth is adequate.



Other ideas
NVME boot Mac OS/Windows10/11 is good but not essential. I can use PCIE adapters for scratch disk and storage.
Mac OS upgrades more or less essential and because the mac pro has at least 4 internal storage options, I am sure I can experiment.
Windows 10/11 (maintenance) upgrades, more or less essential.

..


Anything else i need to know?

Thank you.

 

[chrfr]

CPU
I understand the 4.1 model has dual processors and the 5.1 is a single processor.

No, both the 4,1 and 5,1 were available as single and dual processor computers. The 12 core 5,1 is a dual 6-core.

 

[jscipione]

I’d recommend getting a single socket 5,1 because the extra 6 cores won’t help you for photo editing or Windows gaming while the dual socket model uses a lot more power and are more expensive. If you also want video editing as well then the dual socket version becomes more worth it.

RX580 is a good card for a Mac Pro’s built in power sockets (with dual mini-6 to 8 adapter), and supports 4-5 monitors. No version of macOS supports more than 60Hz (please correct me if Ventura has added support for this) so your 144Hz gaming monitor will only be fully utilized in Winders.

You’ll need to upgrade the WiFi and Bluetooth BCM63950cd or similar to upgrade to Catalina or better, and you’ll need open core. There is a thread on this forum explaining what you need to do to upgrade your WiFi including different models are supported and other requirements. You’ll have to make a cable with the right connector and an antenna extender.

There is another thread on how to install open core and upgrade to Cat or Big Sur or Monterrey (or Ventura soon.)

You can get a cheap PCIe to NVMe adapter to install macOS and Windows on or you can use a standard SATA SSD. You’ll need to buy a caddy adapter for about $25 or use a piece of Velcro or put in first position and rest on fan.

 

[tsialex]

NVMe with Windows requires UEFI installs and with that you get Windows UEFI SecureBoot signing your BootROM, extremely bad idea with a EFI Mac.

 

[jscipione]

NVMe with Windows requires UEFI installs and with that you get Windows UEFI SecureBoot signing your BootROM, extremely bad idea with a EFI Mac.

Is that a Windows 11 thing? Windows 10 installs fine on NVMe once you monkey around a bit with the boot loader, but I know 11 has more stringent requirements.

 

[tsialex]

Is that a Windows 11 thing? Windows 10 installs fine on NVMe once you monkey around a bit with the boot loader, but I know 11 has more stringent requirements.

Windows 8.1 forward.

Even if you hack a way to disable SecureBoot, windows updates enable it again and sign the BootROM. The only real way to avoid it is using OpenCore to block SecureBoot to write the NVRAM.

 

[jscipione]

Windows 8.1 forward.

Even if you hack a way to disable SecureBoot, windows updates enable it again and sign the BootROM. The only real way to avoid it is using OpenCore to block SecureBoot to write the NVRAM.

I’ll take your word for it but I was able to install Windows 10 on NVMe on my 5,1 without disabling SecureBoot in Windows. I did need to convert the BIOS from MBR to UEFI though to make it boot. I moved that drive to my 7,1 now though so it’s been a while and I may have forgotten some details.

 

[tsialex]

I’ll take your word for it but I was able to install Windows 10 on NVMe on my 5,1 without disabling SecureBoot in Windows. I did need to convert the BIOS from MBR to UEFI though to make it boot. I moved that drive to my 7,1 now though so it’s been a while and I may have forgotten some details.

2019 Mac Pro is UEFI, so no issues.

You can't disable Windows SecureBoot within Windows, that defeats the whole purpose of the tech, you have to disable from the UEFI config or shell, since MacPro5,1 is EFI and without any configurator (like the BIOS menus of the past), you can't do it. That's why we need OpenCore to block the NVRAM access. You can also disable SecureBoot with the PK and some NVRAM variables, but we don't have the Apple signing key and probably wouldn't work too with the Mac Pro EFI 1.10.

Converting MBR to GPT is because UEFI requirements for booting, this is unrelated to Windows SecureBoot signing the BootROM. Maybe you are mistaking for something else, no?

 

[jscipione]

Converting MBR to GPT is because UEFI requirements for booting, this is unrelated to Windows SecureBoot signing the BootROM. Maybe you are mistaking for something else, no?

I see yes if it’s an Open Core option then I probably did set that. Good to know.

 

[Kimmo]

I’d recommend getting a single socket 5,1 because the extra 6 cores won’t help you for photo editing or Windows gaming while the dual socket model uses a lot more power and are more expensive. If you also want video editing as well then the dual socket version becomes more worth it.

RX580 is a good card for a Mac Pro’s built in power sockets (with dual mini-6 to 8 adapter), and supports 4-5 monitors. No version of macOS supports more than 60Hz (please correct me if Ventura has added support for this) so your 144Hz gaming monitor will only be fully utilized in Winders.

You’ll need to upgrade the WiFi and Bluetooth BCM63950cd or similar to upgrade to Catalina or better, and you’ll need open core. There is a thread on this forum explaining what you need to do to upgrade your WiFi including different models are supported and other requirements. You’ll have to make a cable with the right connector and an antenna extender.

There is another thread on how to install open core and upgrade to Cat or Big Sur or Monterrey (or Ventura soon.)

You can get a cheap PCIe to NVMe adapter to install macOS and Windows on or you can use a standard SATA SSD. You’ll need to buy a caddy adapter for about $25 or use a piece of Velcro or put in first position and rest on fan.

That's good advice.

Another consideration is the additional memory that can be installed in the 8-core and 12-core dual socket machines.

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If your photo editing demands aren't too heavy, a single socket hex-core 5,1 with 48GB of RAM would be very nice. But if you plan to do more intensive work (like focus stacking and panorama stitching), especially if you're using Adobe which is a real memory hog, the extra memory you can install in a dual socket Mac Pro might be worth it.

Good luck!

 

[andrew nz]

No, both the 4,1 and 5,1 were available as single and dual processor computers. The 12 core 5,1 is a dual 6-core.

at my location it seems all the 4.1 and dual processor and the 5.1 are singles...

 

[andrew nz]

I’d recommend getting a single socket 5,1 because the extra 6 cores won’t help you for photo editing or Windows gaming while the dual socket model uses a lot more power and are more expensive. If you also want video editing as well then the dual socket version becomes more worth it.

RX580 is a good card for a Mac Pro’s built in power sockets (with dual mini-6 to 8 adapter), and supports 4-5 monitors. No version of macOS supports more than 60Hz (please correct me if Ventura has added support for this) so your 144Hz gaming monitor will only be fully utilized in Winders.

You’ll need to upgrade the WiFi and Bluetooth BCM63950cd or similar to upgrade to Catalina or better, and you’ll need open core. There is a thread on this forum explaining what you need to do to upgrade your WiFi including different models are supported and other requirements. You’ll have to make a cable with the right connector and an antenna extender.

There is another thread on how to install open core and upgrade to Cat or Big Sur or Monterrey (or Ventura soon.)

You can get a cheap PCIe to NVMe adapter to install macOS and Windows on or you can use a standard SATA SSD. You’ll need to buy a caddy adapter for about $25 or use a piece of Velcro or put in first position and rest on fan.

I will not be using wifi, prefer ethernet hardwire and logitech dongle for mouse so can skip bluetooth. Not so essential for me.

 

[andrew nz]

There is another thread on how to install open core and upgrade to Cat or Big Sur or Monterrey (or Ventura soon.)

this is an important consideration.

 

[andrew nz]

If your photo editing demands aren't too heavy, a single socket hex-core 5,1 with 48GB of RAM would be very nice. But if you plan to do more intensive work (like focus stacking and panorama stitching), especially if you're using Adobe which is a real memory hog, the extra memory you can install in a dual socket Mac Pro might be worth it.

Good luck!

in this scenario which is close to my intended workflow, what type of performance penalty between a dual 12 core and the single (hex)?

what about the card itself, is the rx580 8G the best bang for the buck at that price range (reasonable) or are there better AMD options?

 

[Kimmo]

in this scenario which is close to my intended workflow, what type of performance penalty between a dual 12 core and the single (hex)?

what about the card itself, is the rx580 8G the best bang for the buck at that price range (reasonable) or are there better AMD options?

As jscipione mentioned above, the performance penalty will have less to do with CPU cores and more to do with the memory needs of the editing software you plan to use and how you'll be using it.

Some applications, like Helicon focus, are actually pretty efficient in their use of memory. For example, I stacked 120 files from a 45 megapixel camera yesterday and it was fairly quick with my 5,1 hex-core with 48GB of memory. Getting the raw files to Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop and to Helicon Focus and back was another story. Adobe is simply not very efficient. That's where the additional memory that can be installed in a dual socket machine could come in handy.

I use the rx580 in my Mac Pro and it's been a fine GPU card, but that's in a single monitor configuration.

One other thing to keep in mind as you consider my input, or anyone else's, the machines you're looking at are classics, but old. Apple's erratic moves with the Mac Pro (the thermally hobbled 6,1, Apple announcing the transition to Apple Silicon just six months after the wonderful 2019 Intel Mac Pro went on sale ...) have left some users, like me, holding onto their machines much longer than expected. As soon as Apple provides some visibility on the Apple Silicon Mac Pro I'll be putting my 5,1 out to pasture in favor of a 7,1, a Mac Studio, or the new, new thing.

As you look at your needs, I'd suggest doing a quick check of what you'll spend on a classic Mac Pro with upgrades and compare that to the cost of newer technology to make sure it's a good move for you.

Good luck!

 

[andrew nz]

One other thing to keep in mind as you consider my input, or anyone else's, the machines you're looking at are classics, but old. Apple's erratic moves with the Mac Pro (the thermally hobbled 6,1, Apple announcing the transition to Apple Silicon just six months after the wonderful 2019 Intel Mac Pro went on sale ...) have left some users, like me, holding onto their machines much longer than expected. As soon as Apple provides some visibility on the Apple Silicon Mac Pro I'll be putting my 5,1 out to pasture in favor of a 7,1, a Mac Studio, or the new, new thing.

As you look at your needs, I'd suggest doing a quick check of what you'll spend on a classic Mac Pro with upgrades and compare that to the cost of newer technology to make sure it's a good move for you.

Good luck!

Good advice.

This is precisely the reason why a well upgraded 4.1 or 5.1 will last another 10 years and why I will have to hack hardware and any Mac OS to run on this hardware configuratrion.

A newer machine is more than 20x the cost of an upgraded cheesegrater classic.

 

[JMStearnsX2]

RX580 is a good card for a Mac Pro’s built in power sockets (with dual mini-6 to 8 adapter), and supports 4-5 monitors. No version of macOS supports more than 60Hz (please correct me if Ventura has added support for this) so your 144Hz gaming monitor will only be fully utilized in Winders.

I have two 5,1s and both are pushing 120hz on my 144hz monitor. On High Sierra and newer macOSs, just need to use the Displayport not HDMI.

 

[andrew nz]

use the Displayport not HDMI

I have not used displayport and all my connectors are either hdmi or the other older multi pin display- forgot its name.
What am I missing and presumably there might be an adaptor?

 

[JMStearnsX2]

I have Nvidia GTX 780 & 1080ti cards in mine, both have DisplayPort connectors on them.

 

[andrew nz]

I have Nvidia GTX 780 & 1080ti cards in mine, both have DisplayPort connectors on them.

mine are all amd. But i do not know what the displayport looks like and its advantages if any.

 

[andrew nz]

Recently took possession of my 4.1 which has been upgraded to 5.1 and the firmware is the last and desireable 144.0.0.0.0.

However when I received it it appears to have been in a physical fall or drop or something.
Separation is 5mm at the top near the DVD area. See pics.

When i started it it was very twitchy for a while when i was looking at the GPU and checking the RAM.
At one point there was a red light at the RAM point (front) and I received RAM errors on several restarts and omitted to count one of the RAM sticks.
Then it seemed to calm down - yes a very technical term, and upgraded to the last iteration of 10.13.6 High Sierra without any issues.
i know the Ethernet port works and the wifi installed card works so far etc.


The issue now apart from sourcing all my hardware upgrades is whether to attempt some panelbeating or panel replacement assuming that is a thing, or send it back or make an insurance claim.
Is there a schematic about the hardware case construction? Can it be repaired?
It seems the courier company was rough with it and I am trying to find a solution.

What can you recommend in this instance?

 

[JedNZ]

Recently took possession of my 4.1 which has been upgraded to 5.1 and the firmware is the last and desireable 144.0.0.0.0.

However when I received it it appears to have been in a physical fall or drop or something.
Separation is 5mm at the top near the DVD area. See pics.

When i started it it was very twitchy for a while when i was looking at the GPU and checking the RAM.
At one point there was a red light at the RAM point (front) and I received RAM errors on several restarts and omitted to count one of the RAM sticks.
Then it seemed to calm down - yes a very technical term, and upgraded to the last iteration of 10.13.6 High Sierra without any issues.
i know the Ethernet port works and the wifi installed card works so far etc.


The issue now apart from sourcing all my hardware upgrades is whether to attempt some panelbeating or panel replacement assuming that is a thing, or send it back or make an insurance claim.
Is there a schematic about the hardware case construction? Can it be repaired?
It seems the courier company was rough with it and I am trying to find a solution.

What can you recommend in this instance?

I’ve had the same poor handling with cMPs that have been couriered to me. Insurance may be limited to the carriers limits (NZ$1500 I think, but you’ll need to check). For me, I got the seller to send me another cMP (which arrived with a dead backplane!) so I got a refund in the end on a replacement backplane and kept both machines as part of the remedy.

I didn’t bother to panel beat my damaged cMP frame much because the rivets were pulled through. Make sure you remove everything (backplane, PSUs, fans - and of course CPu cage and back and front I/O boards) if you decide to do any panel beating - before you take a hammer to it. I’ve just lived with my handles being a little askew and lisping to one side. But luckily there was no actual damage to the components, surprising given how the bad the drop must have been (butchers).

Yours doesn’t look too bad cosmetically, but you’ll need to test it thoroughly.

I don’t have a schematic for the cMP housing/frame but if you want one for the service manual I’ll send it to you.

 

[andrew nz]

Hello All from the New Year 2023



I am still acquiring components.
I have not resolved the panel beating issue, if anyone has experience please advise.

I have decided that OS 12 Monterey will have to be the main OS.
I will install Mojave on own disk to manage/hack later OS's.

It appears that the Apple/ATI 2600xt might not be supported in Monterey and perhaps I will have to find an alternative. There appear to be multiple older similar pc based low profile ATI/AMD chip cards available, but which one it suitable, I have no idea.
I tried some internet resources to locate such information, but the source I located was incomplete.

Which preferably low profile card for slot 3 or 4 to drive an auxiliary monitor is suitable and usable under OS12+ with native resolution support ? Mac Os boot screen is desirable but not essential.
It would likely not be a problem as a boot screen for windows, but the mac side is my main environment and requires that attention.