Mac Pro refresh - how soon after Macworld?

[Horst]

I guess it doesn't go without saying.

It would be pretty silly to have a screen that works solely with the MB. Of course, having two 24" screens with different plugs is almost as silly, and making people buy an adapter that is a requirement is the silliest.

How unlike Apple.

The new 24" might well be the silliestest move Apple made in the past few years, just for the sake of creating another niche ?

Anyways, as for the topic, I just got me a MacPro.
The main reasons for not waiting on a new product, as already mentioned above, were a possible lack of affordable Ram and compatibilty of existing hardware, and being reluctant to buying a rev. A product.

With Apple usually taking it's sweet time updating the workstations, I don't expect to see an improved and bug-free Nethalem MP within a year, same with OS 10.6 and 3rd party extensions, let alone adaptions for programs.

So my (uneducated) guess would be there'll be a rock-solid, fully supported Snow Leopard MacPro Nethalem rev. B by early 2010.

In the meantime, I hope for 10.6 to further improve excisting technology, and that they don't devolop it to mostly benefit 7i architechture.

And then there is the despersate need for 12"MBP, in case I havent mentiond it .

 

[ceres]

Exactly what I said. The Pro is the least capable (very limited accessories to maximise the utility of the dual Xeons, limited expansion capability), least reliable (in my experience - with a large number of Pros, HP xw's and Dell Precisions) and least supported (compared with the paid-for support of Dell and HP) machine in it's class among 'Tier 1' manufacturers.

It is, however, the best looking. I could also add 'least competently engineered' but that would be slightly redundant since it is mainly that which contributes to the comparative lack of reliability.

...by far best looking. HP and Dell have both -partially successful- undertaken steps to do sth. about their former dastardly-ugly designs with their consumer boxes but the workstations remain heinous.
As far as support is concerned the lack thereof on the apple side disqualifies the MP to wear the P. The lack of expansion and utility is obvious but other than that I don´t see why the MP should qualify as least competently engineered bearing in mind who the audience actually is.

 

[m1stake]

"least competently engineered" doesn't mean anything. What makes it that way?

However in general the impression I get is that while it is a quasi fit for "real" professionals who need more accessories, reliability, and support, it works as advertised as a fast computer that runs OSX [and Windows], which is what I'm looking for.

 

[3runjosh]

Hey everyone

My MBP video card just died I think anyways just got that permanent black screen so I'm typing this using an old disgusting PC I found in storage and spent a good 2 hours trying to get it to connect to the net hahaha pcs.... anyways I'm a graphic designer using the Adobe Suite, Cinema4D and the occasional game. I use Mac Pros at work and they are great for what I do and the Macbook pro gets heat issues everytime I use it. I just started my annual leave holidays for over xmas so I guess if my MBP was going to die now would be the best time for it to because I don't need it for work purposes. My only question is will there be a price increase on parts (ram, new chip etc)? because I am happy to wait till the end of my leave which is around Febuary if not I will go ahead and get the 2008 mac pro.

 

[Sesshi]

I very much doubt there'll be a significant price increase with the i7. The workstation vendors I'm using (no longer Apple however - I've bought my very last Pro ever some months ago) have said that the follow-on i7 models will be pitched at roughly the same price bracket, and unless Apple adds on something revolutionary and higher-cost (highly unlikely, due to their constant presentation since the return of Jobs of flawed evolutions as revolutions) I doubt the price band will change.

 

[3runjosh]

Ok rad. If I do purchase the 2009 model mac pro will I notice a significant increase in rendering times (C4D) and gameplay?

 

[jgbr]

We are forgetting Snow Leopard alongside i7 will really make the difference.

I am waiting to get a Mac Pro i7 with Snow leopard...even if the CD is in the box!

Although I am keen to see if an mac pro upgrade will come along separate or delivered alongside Snow leopard.

 

[Tallest Skil]

We are forgetting Snow Leopard alongside i7 will really make the difference.

And, uh, how do we know this? You can't forget something you don't know.

 

[jgbr]

The technologies being deployed in Snow leopard are designed to utilise this multi core super cpu technology we are moving into. i7 is now that true multi core platform come to light.

They supplement one another perfectly. In addition, Snow Leopard will benefit older mac pros.

Seems abit silly to buy a machine now with SL, and i7 around the corner

 

[chromatronic]

The technologies being deployed in Snow leopard are designed to utilise this multi core super cpu technology we are moving into. i7 is now that true multi core platform come to light.

They supplement one another perfectly. In addition, Snow Leopard will benefit older mac pros.

Seems abit silly to buy a machine now with SL, and i7 around the corner

Is it silly really to buy a mac pro now ?
is it more silly than wait and buy a REV A for a computer costing close to 3000$ ?
is i7 The multi core super cpu ? ? now true multi core platform come to light ?

Did you ever use a Mac pro 8 core ?
are you selling intel i7 ? lol

 

[Tallest Skil]

is it more silly than wait and buy a REV A for a computer costing close to 3000$ ?

Your argument is moot. It has always been moot. First revision products have NO MORE problems than any other revision.

 

[chromatronic]

i dont think so and iam not alone i think...

 

[Horst]

Your argument is moot. It has always been moot. First revision products have NO MORE problems than any other revision.

Quite a brazen statement, given the 7i chips are/will be new and unproven, and are more than a simple update of exsisting technology.

Also, with Apple, there might be a significant performance leap for Rev.B models.
Iirc, the MacPro did have some teething problems, and was upgraded quite a bit after Rev. A.

Granted, there was the jump to Intel back then, but past experience suggests Apple won't deliver the latest and greatest right away.

Re. software, who knows what adjustments might or might not need to be made to pro applications ? Snow Leopard, what's gonna happen ?

With both hardware and software, there is always a bit of beta testing involved for early adopters.
That said, I hope there will be a flawless transition with both the new CPU and OS, I for one just can't take the risk to switch before I'm sure things work.

 

[nanofrog]

Your argument is moot. It has always been moot. First revision products have NO MORE problems than any other revision.

No, it isn't.

Just look at history.

One example, was when system vendors made their first attempts at mother board design. I remember one specific time (486 ), where the first couple of revisions of the boards kept frying their HDD controller chips.

Another, of particular interest, would be the initial release of the Pentium. Remember that one?

Generally speaking, when the new stuff comes out, the designers are still on a learning curve, as management has a bad habit of forcing it out the door before it's been completely debugged. The early adopters become guinea pigs, err.. Beta Testers.

Just look at the current situation with the Seagate 1.5TB drives, and what people have had to go through to get the firmware.

It goes on and on.

Quite a brazen statement, given the 7i chips are/will be new and unproven, and are more than a simple update of exsisting technology.

Also, with Apple, there might be a significant performance leap for Rev.B models.
Iirc, the MacPro did have some teething problems, and was upgraded quite a bit after Rev. A.

Granted, there was the jump to Intel back then, but past experience suggests Apple won't deliver the latest and greatest right away.

Re. software, who knows what adjustments might or might not need to be made to pro applications ? Snow Leopard, what's gonna happen ?

With both hardware and software, there is always a bit of beta testing involved for early adopters.
That said, I hope there will be a flawless transition with both the new CPU and OS, I for one just can't take the risk to switch before I'm sure things work.

Exactly.

At this time, the Xeon 5500 series hasn't hit the wild, and Snow Leopard hasn't either. Issues won't be known until the stuff makes it into users hands, and the bug reports begin to surface.

Beta testing. That's the real price of early adoption.

 

[jgbr]

Having tested the i7 for two weeks, I am rather confident of its abilities.

Yes your right, teething problems with SOFTWARE, will ALWAYS, be present but to have a major CPU failure is rare. Intel has pumped a huge amount of testing into i7.

More of a concern, is the motherboard change, it will have to support DDR3, weither apple designs a competent board and drivers, im afraid will be pot luck.

To claim, the first man buying it, will find all the bugs is wrong. I could buy mine and never have problem, well before yours and it will be your setup that fails.

Warranty counts?

PS: We guess that i7 and SL wont come out at the same time, so hopefully, they will be tested by apple.

 

[Sesshi]

Your argument is moot. It has always been moot. First revision products have NO MORE problems than any other revision.

Oh, oh, oh... can you tell us another one? You funny!

 

[chromatronic]

But what we DO know for sure, is the last revision of MAC PRO with last revision of OSX is almost FLAWLESS and already a Power House...
At least for Music (the thing iam interested in) i have seen some crazy full logic project using like 20% of each core...80% idle So even if the I7 is 15% more powerful it will just mean now we will now have 90% idle ? lol

For rendering movies, or 3D iam ok it will make a difference as those programe use close to 100% of all core when rendering maybe...

 

[ceres]

But what we DO know for sure, is the last revision of MAC PRO with last revision of OSX is almost FLAWLESS and already a Power House...
At least for Music (the thing iam interested in) i have seen some crazy full logic project using like 20% of each core...80% idle So even if the I7 is 15% more powerful it will just mean now we will now have 90% idle ? lol

For rendering movies, or 3D iam ok it will make a difference as those programe use close to 100% of all core when rendering maybe...

Hmm, the one I bought in Jan 08 identified itself as PROTO1 (!!!) in EFI and refused to work with some Kingston FBDIMMS I bought. It also refused to wake up from sleep (reboot) until that EFI update fixed this 3 months later. I haven´t heard from another hardware revision since.

 

[Sesshi]

I suppose it depends on your definition of almost.

 

[nanofrog]

Having tested the i7 for two weeks, I am rather confident of its abilities.

Must be nice.

Which variant, BTW?
And are you hiding a Xeon 5500 series?

Yes your right, teething problems with SOFTWARE, will ALWAYS, be present but to have a major CPU failure is rare. Intel has pumped a huge amount of testing into i7.

I figured the OS/software didn't even need mentioning. But definitely board design, and even CPU. It is a system after all. Though rare, CPU flaws have happened, and Intel re-evaluated their design evaluation/testing procedures after the Pentium's flaws became apparent. They've done well in this regard from then on so far.

More of a concern, is the motherboard change, it will have to support DDR3, weither apple designs a competent board and drivers, im afraid will be pot luck.

I absolutely agree. Different CPU, chipset (and can even use 2, if they desire), and of course DDR3. ECC variant.

I'm not sure Apple actually designs their own boards anymore. Ye olde outsourcing to save a few bucks. Bugs be damned.

To claim, the first man buying it, will find all the bugs is wrong. I could buy mine and never have problem, well before yours and it will be your setup that fails.

Of course. Not everyone uses the exact same system to do exactly the same thing.

That's what Beta testing is for. Some uses are less common, may demand more from the system,....

Warranty counts?

Absolutely.

It can help to mitigate QC problems that made it into the field. For example, a PSU made is made by makers A, B, C, and D. The units from A will have a habit of blowing out, but units produced by B, C, and D won't. But due to the short duration of testing, it won't get noticed until some time later, after the systems release. It wouldn't get noticed until users begin to report dead computers, and don't know what happened. Then it becomes a mad dash to discover the cause, and perform warranty repairs.

Such issues are typically discovered this way these days.

PS: We guess that i7 and SL wont come out at the same time, so hopefully, they will be tested by apple.

Hopefully.

But the degree of testing won't necessarily go as in depth as it should. Once a system has been produced, the pressure to ship is absolutely enormous, and testing suffers.

 

[m1stake]

Yes your right, teething problems with SOFTWARE, will ALWAYS, be present but to have a major CPU failure is rare. Intel has pumped a huge amount of testing into i7.

More of a concern, is the motherboard change, it will have to support DDR3, weither apple designs a competent board and drivers, im afraid will be pot luck.

That TLB bug that the Phenoms had was pretty recent. As far as the actual hardware Apple gets to design the case, the board is all Intel. The drivers on the other hand...

 

[nanofrog]

That TLB bug that the Phenoms had was pretty recent. As far as the actual hardware Apple gets to design the case, the board is all Intel. The drivers on the other hand...

Well, since the next Mac Pro won't use AMD, I kept it to Intel.

But further proof that it can, and does still happen.

I also seem to recall Intel being the board ODM, but I can't seem to remember a link for absolute proof.

Would you happen to have one?

 

[m1stake]

That's right. I know the X58 is designed by Intel and fabbed by Intel and several vendors for several other vendors (EVGA, XFX, etc, have no fabs of their own). The DP boards are definitely fabbed by Intel.

 

[nanofrog]

That's right. I know the X58 is designed by Intel and fabbed by Intel and several vendors for several other vendors (EVGA, XFX, etc, have no fabs of their own). The DP boards are definitely fabbed by Intel.

Yeah, Intel is a giant. They make quite a few components (not just CPU's),... including boards. They're like a virus. Found everywhere.

Speaking of the X58 chipset, I'd like to see two of the Tylersburg 36D's go into the next Mac Pro. Other server/workstation boards as well. It would certainly be nice to have 4 PCIe x16 slots that actually work at full bandwidth.
(Yes, I know, I'm greedy!)

 

[m1stake]

Theoretically the 16x, 16x, 8x, is a problem. In practice, I can barely afford ONE $350 card. Especially with the PCI 2.0 spec, it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Can't wait for the EVGA X58 to get on their employee purchase website, I'm very pleased with the OC functions of the 680i, but not so much the chipset, raid, etc, drivers.

It looks like my upgrade is going to be free with all these employee purchase deals and this $1000 check from the Treasury that I can't explain. With that in mind, if I ever stop posting, please expose this massive conspiracy that may culminate in a secret lifetime imprisonment in Guantanamo for me.