Mac Pro To Continue Quad-Core Tradition? Woodcrest?

[Squire]

Just say the two names Mac Pro and Powermac - what sounds better?

I guess we'll have to ask that question to Mac users in about 2-3 years and see what they say. For some reason, I think you're just paranoid, Marvin. 😉

-Squire

 

[rainmanbk]

As much as a case redesign would be cool, I'm afraid that the displays wouldn't be updated right away. I want to get both at the same time, not a new case with an old display.

Like someone said earlier... Apple won't change the design, but all the reasons the current G5 design are crappy will be changed/fixed to allow more space for drives, etc. and less need for space for cooling.

 

[AidenShaw]

How much ram we talking about? Will the Mac Pro's still take 16gbs? Or do you all think less or more?

The Blackford chipset used with Woodies supports 64 GiB of RAM, and motherboards supporting 64 GiB for Woody are already on the market.

Apple may choose a smaller number of FB-DIMM slots, of course - but I'd expect 16 GiB with four FB-DIMM slots at a minimum.

The 975 chipset used with the Conroe is limited to 8 GiB max - so the New Form-Factor Dual-Core 64-bit Conroe Mini-Tower™ will have an 8 GiB limit.

Why can't Woodcrest support DDR2 ? Wouldn't that be a step down to use anything else?

http://developer.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/250634.htm

FB-DIMM (compared to DDR2)

• Provides over 3 times higher memory throughput† allowing for superior application responsiveness
• Enables increased capacity and speed to balance capabilities of dual core processors
• Allows for Intel® I/O Acceleration Technology to more quickly access and process data
• Performs reads and writes simultaneously; eliminating the previous read to write blocking latency
• Supports a faster front side bus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB-DIMM

FB-DIMM is beyond DDR2 technology - it's an enhanced DDR2.

You couldn't do 64 GiB of memory on 1333 MHz channels with DDR2, but you can with FB-DIMM.

 

[Palmer]

Just say the two names Mac Pro and Powermac - what sounds better?

I think Mac Pro sounds much better.

 

[macgeek2005]

The Blackford chipset used with Woodies supports 64 GiB of RAM, and motherboards supporting 64 GiB for Woody are already on the market.

Apple may choose a smaller number of FB-DIMM slots, of course - but I'd expect 16 GiB with four FB-DIMM slots at a minimum.

The 975 chipset used with the Conroe is limited to 8 GiB max - so the New Form-Factor Dual-Core 64-bit Conroe Mini-Tower™ will have an 8 GiB limit.


http://developer.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/250634.htm

FB-DIMM (compared to DDR2)

• Provides over 3 times higher memory throughput† allowing for superior application responsiveness
• Enables increased capacity and speed to balance capabilities of dual core processors
• Allows for Intel® I/O Acceleration Technology to more quickly access and process data
• Performs reads and writes simultaneously; eliminating the previous read to write blocking latency
• Supports a faster front side bus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB-DIMM

FB-DIMM is beyond DDR2 technology - it's an enhanced DDR2.

You couldn't do 64 GiB of memory on 1333 MHz channels with DDR2, but you can with FB-DIMM.

What Conroe Mini Tower are you refering too?

 

[AidenShaw]

What Conroe Mini Tower are you refering too?

The new non-all-in-one lineup this fall will be:

MiniMacIntel:

Tiny, one Yonah/Merom dual core, extremely limited expansion (one 2.5" disk, 2 GiB RAM max, integrated graphics, no slots)​

New Conroe Mini-Tower:

Mini-tower (or pizza box - think the size and shape of a home DVD or stereo component), one Conroe dual core, max 8 GiB RAM in four DDR2 DIMMs, integrated graphics *and* PCIe x16 slot for graphic card, one or two 3.5" disks (up to 1500 GB disk), one or two optical, two PCIe x4 slots for other cards (like TV tuner)​

Mac Pro (PowerMac replacement):

Maxi-tower, dual Woodcrest dual core, max 16 GiB to 64 GiB RAM, PCIe graphics card + more slots, probably more disks than the PMG5​

Several strong reasons for the new Mini-Tower:

1. Xeon (Woodcrest) CPUs and chipsets are much more expensive than the Core 2 Duo (Conroe) parts, so an all Woodcrest tower lineup would be quite expensive
2. There's already a huge gap between the Mini and the Maxi PMG5 (in size and price)
3. Apple will introduce an HTPC system, and those are often in home-stereo form factors
4. Everyone else will have $800 to $1100 Conroe dual-core mini-towers, Apple needs something to compete in that price/feature range (Mini and iMac don't)

 

[aswitcher]

The new non-all-in-one lineup this fall will be:


New Conroe Mini-Tower:

Mini-tower (or pizza box - think the size and shape of a home DVD or stereo component), one Conroe dual core, max 8 GiB RAM in four DDR2 DIMMs, integrated graphics *and* PCIe x16 slot for graphic card, one or two 3.5" disks (up to 1500 GB disk), one or two optical, two PCIe x4 slots for other cards (like TV tuner)​

Expected Price(s)?

BT and WiFi standard?

Frontrow yes, but what about iSight - are we going to see a new iSight camera (with better resolution) for people wanting to use their big screen TV for vidcons?

Performance over next gen iMacs?

 

[macgeek2005]

The new non-all-in-one lineup this fall will be:

MiniMacIntel:

Tiny, one Yonah/Merom dual core, extremely limited expansion (one 2.5" disk, 2 GiB RAM max, integrated graphics, no slots)​

New Conroe Mini-Tower:

Mini-tower (or pizza box - think the size and shape of a home DVD or stereo component), one Conroe dual core, max 8 GiB RAM in four DDR2 DIMMs, integrated graphics *and* PCIe x16 slot for graphic card, one or two 3.5" disks (up to 1500 GB disk), one or two optical, two PCIe x4 slots for other cards (like TV tuner)​

Mac Pro (PowerMac replacement):

Maxi-tower, dual Woodcrest dual core, max 16 GiB to 64 GiB RAM, PCIe graphics card + more slots, probably more disks than the PMG5​

Several strong reasons for the new Mini-Tower:

1. Xeon (Woodcrest) CPUs and chipsets are much more expensive than the Core 2 Duo (Conroe) parts, so an all Woodcrest tower lineup would be quite expensive
2. There's already a huge gap between the Mini and the Maxi PMG5 (in size and price)
3. Apple will introduce an HTPC system, and those are often in home-stereo form factors
4. Everyone else will have $800 to $1100 Conroe dual-core mini-towers, Apple needs something to compete in that price/feature range (Mini and iMac don't)

Except that the Conroe tower will have dedicated graphics.

 

[brianus]

As much as a case redesign would be cool, I'm afraid that the displays wouldn't be updated right away. I want to get both at the same time, not a new case with an old display.

Again, why the assumption here that a case redesign would necessarily make them clash with the displays? The current displays look just fine alongside the Mac mini and the Powerbook, both radically different designs than the G5 tower.

 

[AidenShaw]

Why add unnecessary expense to the entry mini-tower.

Except that the Conroe tower will have dedicated graphics.

WTF is "dedicated graphics"? I don't see that as a contradiction to "integrated graphics" - the integrated graphics engine is dedicated to providing graphics. "Dedicated" does not mean "separate graphics card".

It is common on lower mid-range to upper mid-range Intel systems to use the GMA integrated graphics on the motherboard.

These systems will also have a PCIe x16 slot that accepts a separate PCIe graphics card. A BIOS setting controls whether the GMA graphics is enabled or disabled.

If it is enabled, the system boots with the GMA as the console graphics. If disabled, it boots with the PCIe card as the graphics console. If both are enabled, it boots dual or triple headed.

Why add the price of a separate PCIe graphics card to all of the mini-towers? Let the low end with GMA have a lower entry price for people who don't need a good 3D card - and let the low-end have a BTO option to add the PCIe card. Higher end models could have various PCIe cards standard while using exactly the same motherboard.

 

[treysmay]

what about blu-ray? something new?

 

[Goldfinger]

New Form-Factor Dual-Core 64-bit Conroe Mini-Tower™

This would be a dream come true and I've been hopeing for this since they switched to Intel.

Like you said a lot of thing point out the possibility of such a machine. There IS indeed a gap in the lineup. The mini is useless for me personally and a quad woodcrest would be too much for my needs. The only thing that's left is the iMac but I don't want the damn all in one form factor. A LOT of people don't like the all in one form factor.
Basically an iMac minus the screen + 1 or 2 PCI slots, and 1 graphics PCI (filled) + room for 2 HDs and of course Conroe instead of a Yonah.
I think that a lot of people are in my position and I would even be surprised if Apple didn't fix this gap in the lineup.

It could start at $1099 or so.

I doubt that they would make a pizzabox/desktop form factor. Bring back the cube but at a reasonable price point this time and it'll be a major cash cow.

 

[AidenShaw]

I doubt that they would make a pizzabox/desktop form factor.

A pizza-box the size/shape of a home stereo component or DVD player would be good for a Home Theatre PC (HTPC). Just stack it in the living room with the other components.

Many Intel Viiv systems in this form factor are available now, like:

http://www.intel.com/buy/viiv.htm?iid=viiv_whereToBuy

Bring back the cube but at a reasonable price point this time and it'll be a major cash cow.

The Cube is back - it's called the Mini.

It doesn't fit well as an HTPC - no room inside for tuners or 1.5 TB of disk for PVR recordings. It also doesn't fit - period. It's an odd size and shape.

 

[Goldfinger]

A pizza-box the size/shape of a home stereo component or DVD player would be good for a Home Theatre PC (HTPC). Just stack it in the living room with the other components.

Many Intel Viiv systems in this form factor are available now, like:

The Cube is back - it's called the Mini.

It doesn't fit well as an HTPC - no room inside for tuners or 1.5 TB of disk for PVR recordings. It also doesn't fit - period. It's an odd size and shape.

I wasn't really thinking of a HTPC. Just a plain tower model between the mini and the powermac. I can't see Apple doing just a HTPC and not a new "headless iMac" form factor. I CAN see them do both.
The sales potential for a HTPC is vastly overrated IMHO. It only makes sense if you have a HDTV AND a second PC to use as your computer. PC and TV integration will never become truly established IMHO, not in the near future anyway. Add to that that HDTV is only starting to become widespread in north america. In Europe HDTV doesn't mean a thing at the moment.

I wouldn't call the Mini the new cube. The Cube would come with a big hard drive (3,5"!!), more powerfull CPU (as it was positioned between Powermac and iMac back then), real GPU (granted, they didn't have IIG back then).

But I guess it's just wait and see for now 🙂. Fingers crossed.

 

[AidenShaw]

I wasn't really thinking of a HTPC. Just a plain tower model between the mini and the powermac.

Some of the small form-factor (SFF) PCs have a small stand that can be attached to place the SFF system in a tower orientation. (They even have the logo on a pivot so that it will always be correctly oriented.)

If the innovators at Dell can figure this out, surely the clever folks at Apple could make a system that could be both an HTPC and an office mini-tower.

Or, like you suggested, two cases (one mini-tower, one HTPC) for the same motherboard would not be that difficult - although it offends those who still believe that the 1998 product matrix from Apple is relevant.

 

[LBmacman]

For me, a mini-tower would be perfect since I cannot stand purchasing an all-in-one model *cough IMAC* and end up getting screwed in the long run because i cant upgrade it. i would take a $1499 mini-tower over a $1299 imac anyday. Apple really should consider the gap between the mac mini and the mac pro, because the iMac is just a non-portable laptop IMO. I guess we'll just have to wait for WWDC to find out...but expandable graphics and conroe is a must have if they do consider making a mini-tower

Does anyone else agree with me?

btw,a nice redesign would be a big ass mac mini on its side

 

[AidenShaw]

btw,a nice redesign would be a big ass mac mini on its side

With two 3.5" disk slots (1.5 TB today), integrated graphics plus a PCIe x16 slot for a separate graphics card, and a couple of PCIe x4 slots for other things *cough ATSC/NTSC tuners*...

 

[Squire]

For me, a mini-tower would be perfect since I cannot stand purchasing an all-in-one model *cough IMAC* and end up getting screwed in the long run because i cant upgrade it. i would take a $1499 mini-tower over a $1299 imac anyday. Apple really should consider the gap between the mac mini and the mac pro, because the iMac is just a non-portable laptop IMO. I guess we'll just have to wait for WWDC to find out...but expandable graphics and conroe is a must have if they do consider making a mini-tower

Does anyone else agree with me?

btw,a nice redesign would be a big ass mac mini on its side

I actually did upgrade my G4 iMac a bit (new DVD-burner and 250 GB HD) but I totally see your point. As far as the upgrades are concerned, I sure hope it's as easy as the mini (or easier, actually) to swap the CPU out. Yeah, a mini tower would be the cat's ass if you ask me.

-Squire

 

[~Shard~]

I actually did upgrade my G4 iMac a bit (new DVD-burner and 250 GB HD) but I totally see your point. As far as the upgrades are concerned, I sure hope it's as easy as the mini (or easier, actually) to swap the CPU out. Yeah, a mini tower would be the cat's ass if you ask me.

I was thinking of eventually doing the same thing to my 17" 1.25 GHz G4 iMac. How hard a process was it? Was there thermal paste issues and the like to worry about, or was it relatively easy?

 

[Squire]

I was thinking of eventually doing the same thing to my 17" 1.25 GHz G4 iMac. How hard a process was it? Was there thermal paste issues and the like to worry about, or was it relatively easy?

Actually, it was pretty simple ~Shard~. Although, I admit I was sweating bullets the first time I cracked it open. You do need thermal paste but I just ordered it with the superdrive from Tiger Direct. You also need torx-10 and torx-15 screwdrivers. I picked up a cheap set from Canadian Tire for 9 bucks. Better pick up some of that "Dust Off" or whatever the canister spray stuff is called while you're there. A bright young fella like you would be in and out in 45 minutes. 😉

Here is the essential reading.

That said, I would like to be able to do less stressful upgrades in the future. A mini-tower would likely make that possible.

-Squire

 

[~Shard~]

Actually, it was pretty simple ~Shard~. Although, I admit I was sweating bullets the first time I cracked it open. You do need thermal paste but I just ordered it with the superdrive from Tiger Direct. You also need torx-10 and torx-15 screwdrivers. I picked up a cheap set from Canadian Tire for 9 bucks. Better pick up some of that "Dust Off" or whatever the canister spray stuff is called while you're there. A bright young fella like you would be in and out in 45 minutes. 😉

Here is the essential reading.

That said, I would like to be able to do less stressful upgrades in the future. A mini-tower would likely make that possible.

-Squire

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it! Not sure if I'll ever actually get around to doing it, but good to know it's possible, and how to properly go about things. 😎

And yes, I have quite a bit of experience building PCs, as well as circuits from my Electronics labs in university, but I would want to be extra careful when it comes to my precious Mac! 😉 😀

As for the mini-tower, yes, that would be the optimal machine for me as well - the best of both worlds for my computing needs. Let's hope Apple fills the gap. 😎

 

[Squire]

Strangely enough, I didn't have any experience toying around with the innards of any computer until I tackled my iMac project. I guess that tells you the relative simplicity of the matter. I ran into a little speedbump on my second attempt: a "slave" vs. "master" issue on the optical drive, but that's another story.

I was watching 24 the other day and saw one of the characters crack open the side of a G4 Powermac and rip a hard drive out in about 10 seconds. I long for the day I can do that.

-Squire

 

[Evangelion]

An interesting point. I am of the opinion that the 360, and even moreso, the PS3 are on their way to making Gaming PCs obsolete.

I'm sorry, but you are quite mistaken. Consoles are great for certain type of games (sports-games, racing-games etc.), but they absolutely, positively suck for certain other types of games (simulators, strategy etc.).

I do my gaming on a PC, and I honestly don't see a console as a alternative. It might supplement my PC as a gaming-platform, but I can't see myself sitting in front of my TV while playing Civilization 4, Combat Mission or Steel Panthers

 

[Squire]

I'm sorry, but you are quite mistaken. Consoles are great for certain type of games (sports-games, racing-games etc.), but they absolutely, positively suck for certain other types of games (simulators, strategy etc.).

I do my gaming on a PC, and I honestly don't see a console as a alternative. It might supplement my PC as a gaming-platform, but I can't see myself sitting in front of my TV while playing Civilization 4, Combat Mission or Steel Panthers

I couldn't agree with you more.

Personally, I just can't get into sports games on a PC. Also, as far as I'm concerned, the online multi-player aspect of a sports game is limited in appeal. Give me a multi-tap, some cold pizza, a flat of beer, and 3 or more buddies with PS2 controllers... good times. (I know someone is going to quote that out of context an add a weird-looking emoticon, but whatever.😉) On the flip side, I have absolutely no desire to play my RTS games on my PS2.

I think both the PC and the console will be around as gaming devices for the foreseeable future.

One of my neighbors / co-workers has a PS2 hooked up to his projector. I like paying Medal of Honor at his place because, even with the split screen, we have about the equivalent of a 40" TV screen each.

-Squire

 

[Arnaud]

Mini-tower !

With two 3.5" disk slots (1.5 TB today), integrated graphics plus a PCIe x16 slot for a separate graphics card, and a couple of PCIe x4 slots for other things *cough ATSC/NTSC tuners*...

I say, bring back the 840AV !!!

10 years ago, the offer of forms in Apple's catalog was broader, with all-in-ones, desktops, mini-towers and towers. Nowadays, it's either Mini (too short on features) or Powermac & future equivalents (too expensive !!!).

On the other hand, 10 years ago, Apple was running low on money...