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There must be some reason this time is different.
One of the biggest is that everyone doing development is doing it with Xcode. Not having to worry about who is using what methods in a pletora of IDE’s has to remove a lot of the headaches.
Power to Intel took 18mths!
1 year, actually. Jan 2006 to Dec 2006.
Or do you have any specific indication Apple will remove Bootcamp support?
I think Bootcamp is there because it was easy. There’s little difference between an Intel Mac motherboard and any generic PC vendor’s Intel motherboard as Intel defines what the components are and how they should work. Provide drivers and, BAM Bootcamp.

ARM based systems have no overarching motherboard level support. Apple could design a motherboard in such a way that it runs macOS wonderfully, but is so foreign that you couldn’t expect that ARM apps for Windows would run on ARMac. Now, it COULD be that Apple and Microsoft are working together behind the scenes to design an ARM reference platform so that a Bootcamp would be just as easy as before. BUT, my thinking is, if Apple’s willing to break with Intel and Intel designed motherboards, they’re going to focus on “What would make the best macOS system”.
Large developers may stop paying attention to the Mac entirely, continuing an ongoing trend that started a few years ago.
Large developers have been using Xcode for a long time already and were not affected. These same developers, having already prepared for Catalina are extremely well prepared for a 64 bit ONLY CPU now. Just recompile and tweak.
Thinking outside the box, an ARM Mac should theoretically be able to dual boot arm windows.
Not actually. It would be the same as expecting that an Android phone could be dual booted with iOS. Intel as the CPU also requires an Intel motherboard. So, any Intel based OS can pretty much run on any Intel system. ARM’s only involved at the CPU level, customers build the motherboards that meet their individual specifications.
No single word in Kuo or Blomberg article point to ARM (or Any) Specific Platform
This part is pretty interesting.
We expect that Apple's new products in 12-18 months will adopt processors made by 5nm process, including the new 2H20 5G iPhone, new 2H20 iPad equipped with mini LED, and new 1H21 Mac equipped with the own-design processor.
Apple has a processor that they design, so I think this does point to Apple’s ARM designed processor.
I don't think Apple really understands just how deep the need for Bootcamp runs. Maybe I'm wrong and it's just the power-users and Gamers that Apple will end up losing,
Since most people just click “OK” when setting up a new computer, Apple would have some system metrics from a swath of systems that report certain anonymized analytic data. They likey have a good idea out of the millions of Macs sold, how many has EVER been Bootcamp’d. They’d also have an idea from how many times the Bootcamp drivers have been downloaded from their site.
There may be a short period without it as there was with the initial switch to Intel chips, but there is little reason not to keep it. Windows runs on ARM chips, it ought to run on an ARM Mac.
That short period was likely related to Minimum Viable Product. They shipped an MVP that did all the things an Intel Mac should be able to do, and they continued to work on additional features. Since the MB’s of Intel systems are broadly identical, they just needed to prepare the drivers and ship them. The same won’t be true of ARM systems.
but if it's going to stay competitive the MacBook will need to maintain broad capabilities
The MacBook competitive? The same MacBook that has a tiny sliver of the entire laptop category? I think any idea of real “competitiveness” flew the coop when the iPad started outselling every laptop maker combined. :) The iPad lacks a lot of those “broad capabilities” and still outsells.
The switch from PowerPC to Intel took a few years
The first generation Intel-based Macintoshes were released in January 2006, the Xserve servers were available in December 2006. One year. They didn’t release an Intel only OS until 2009, but the transition to Intel was quicker than they initially reported, which was to begin by June 2006, and finish by the end of 2007.
People will Hackintosh ARM based systems
I think it won’t be as easy as Intel Hackintoshes.
Except Adobe.
Adobe’s already producing production ready and shipping ARM code. I think, due to Apple getting everyone using Xcode and making huge advances with the compiler (plus cutting off all the Carbon stuff they were using as a crutch) will put Adobe in an excellent position.
If they want to run old (current!) Mac apps, they'll need it.
If they want to run current Mac apps, they can keep their current Mac system. But woe be unto the person who needs legacy app support who sells their Intel system before buying a new ARMac.
 
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ARM (as current version ARMv8) will run anything that a x86 CPU will run.
Microsoft already proofed this by allowing ARM CPU to half emulate x86 binary code (serving x86 binary native arm API libraries and emulate the x86 part).

So there no "x86 only" software.

Now everyone hate emulation so we want native binary on ARM.

The next part is kinda complex as you have to know what a compiler is. Chrome/Safari/Word/Keynote almost every software you are currently using are not build using the language CPU could understand.

Your CPU only understand binary that is 010101s. Those binary contains instruction that CPU could directly run.
Developer usually write "High level programming language" like C/C++/ObjectiveC/Swift/Java/Kotlin.
Those language have to "compile" into binary somehow and this compiler take care of what CPU you are targeting.

You can just ask compiler to compile your code into ARM or any new CPU arch that is supported by the compiler--if your code does not contains any CPU specific code like inline assembly or platform different length variables.

Modern platform usually encourage developer to avoid these as those things caused trouble when upgrading from x86 to x64.
By now if your code runs on x64 then most likely you do not need to modify a single line and it will just works on a ARM64 CPU target.

Nice! thanks for the detail man. Learning a lot. Sounds like mixed feelings this ARM based macs.

Regards,
 
which Apple surely will support for quite a while longer.
Apple has shown an ability to not listen to certain small groups (like FCP7 users). I think they will be cutting folks off with no forward migration just like with then.
My best guess is the first ARM-based Mac will be designed for the education market.
Apple doesn’t need the education market anymore and there’s really no money in it. I looked into this a little while ago and it’s not the price of the Chromebooks, it’s the supporting software/infrastructure. Google effectively gives it away because, on the back end, they’re making money off selling the data. There’s no way Apple’s going to compete on cost/features while Google’s willing to take an up front loss, so there’s really no value left in Education.
 
It all depends on the speed. If speed is fast enough to justify another Rosetta and transition, why not?
But if not, the last intel is going to be my last Mac.

Also, good luck to MP 7,1 users. Unless Apple plans to double track their line-up, MP7,1 users are !@#$ed.
 
It all depends on the speed. If speed is fast enough to justify another Rosetta and transition, why not?
But if not, the last intel is going to be my last Mac.

Also, good luck to MP 7,1 users. Unless Apple plans to double track their line-up, MP7,1 users are !@#$ed.
I was also thinking about what this means for recent MP buyers. This is quite a kick in the pants is it not (if true)?
 
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This does not support 64bit applications.
Are you referring to Windows on ARM?
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This new mac can run iPadOS and iOS apps, which means you will see a bunch of new people buying macs (remember: the mac market is tiny compared to iOS), which will increase the size of the market, which will attract developers and encourage them to support ARM.

Windows didn't have the benefit of a massive ARM ecosystem to leverage off of.

I agree, but the person I was replying to was suggesting that people can just Boot Camp Windows ARM. I'm explaining why Windows ARM doesn't solve anyone's problems.
 
Isn’t Apple a member of the RISC-V consortium? And has been for quite some time?
No?

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I was also thinking about what this means for recent MP buyers. This is quite a kick in the pants is it not (if true)?
Why? It’s modular. Who’s to say they don’t release a version with ARM?
 
My best guess is the first ARM-based Mac will be designed for the education market. Apple lost major share in what was once a true stronghold for them and price was a major factor in their decline. With a new ARM-based Mac, Apple may have an ace in the hole for getting back into education. They should have better control of cost and hence price, the need for things like Bootcamp are essentially non-existent, performance needs are minor compared to battery life, and complex software is rarely used.
"Apple lost major share in what was once a true stronghold for them and price was a major factor in their decline"

I disagree with price being the major factor in their decline. The reason Google is winning big time in K-12 has to do with their education-based cloud services that allow school it admins to manage & deploy devices very easily. The second being that a lot of schools rely on the web browser to access applications, Google Docs being a major one. An ARM Mac and a desktop-class Safari on the iPad tackle the second problem. Apple still has to tackle the first. This is a decent article written by an IT admin that works on the K-12 sector.

 
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ARM based Mac wont gonna be powerful for several years and it will take another several years to adopt the new environment for third parties.
 
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I'm interested to see how this plays out. Intel's been holding up Mac releases for the last few years and they seem to be falling behind in the CPU wars. An ARM based Mac would be interesting and I can only imagine how much processing power it'd have, if the A-series chips give us anything to go by. I am someone who needs Bootcamp though, so if I were to lose that functionality with an ARM based Mac (which is a real possibility), it'd be hard to move over to macOS exclusively until developers ported their software over.

I'm optimistic though. The switch from PowerPC to Intel took a few years, but look how much good that brought to the Mac. Maybe the same thing will be said about the switch from Intel to ARM, if it truly does happen.
"The switch from PowerPC to Intel took a few years"

It happened in 18 months.
 
No, these functions are written at a higher level and would not require work. Apps that don't use the SDKs are where the problems will be. There aren't a lot of such programs, but some of them may be very important to some people.
Exactly. And a lot of that is happening right now because of Catalina's 64-bit app requirement. I still think that that was a Trojan Horse for the ARM transition. Going 64-bit for the most part requires older code to get up to speed with the newer APIs, as a "side effect". Basically, apps you see running under Catalina, should recompile pretty effortlessly to ARM. A lot of the hard work is being done. Stuff that is and never will work under Catalina, probably won't make it to ARM.
 
No single word in Kuo or Blomberg article point to ARM (or Any) Specific Platform

AFAIK Apple can't make an x86 chip without a license from Intel, which probably ain't gonna happen. AMD have a license for historical reasons - back at the birth of the IBM PC, IBM required Intel to licence a couple of alternative manufacturers as a "second source" to ensure their supply.

Considering that Apple use ARM for both iOS devices and in the T2 chips it is by far the most likely choice.

I think Bootcamp is there because it was easy.

Yeah - hackers had Windows running on Intel Macs before bootcamp came out. Bootcamp has always been, mainly, a point-and-click tool for automating something a masochist could do manually, plus a couple of drivers for things like trackpads.

Apple could design a motherboard in such a way that it runs macOS wonderfully, but is so foreign that you couldn’t expect that ARM apps for Windows would run on ARMac.

...last time I looked, you couldn't buy ARM for Windows as a product - you had to get a MS-approved device.

I rather doubt many Bootcamp users want Windows for ARM anyway - if you need to run obscure Windows-only software or do testing you probably want x86... Windows is hamstrung by the need for backwards compatibility - MacOS can be a bit more agile in switching platforms (which its done several times already).
 
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AFAIK Apple can't make an x86 chip without a license from Intel, which probably ain't gonna happen. AMD have a license for historical reasons - back at the birth of the IBM PC, IBM required Intel to licence a couple of alternative manufacturers as a "second source" to ensure their supply.

Considering that Apple use ARM for both iOS devices and in the T2 chips it is by far the most likely choice.



Yeah - hackers had Windows running on Intel Macs before bootcamp came out. Bootcamp has always been, mainly, a point-and-click tool for automating something a masochist could do manually, plus a couple of drivers for things like trackpads.



...last time I looked, you couldn't buy ARM for Windows as a product - you had to get a MS-approved device.

I rather doubt many Bootcamp users want Windows for ARM anyway - if you need to run obscure Windows-only software or do testing you probably want x86... Windows is hamstrung by the need for backwards compatibility - MacOS can be a bit more agile in switching platforms (which its done several times already).

You also need a license from AMD, since they created x86–64.
 
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I'm not convinced that Apple's position in the PC market is strong enough to survive this. I don't see important applications like Photoshop being rewritten for a new architecture. And without those it might become difficult. I also think Apple might be underestimating how many users are using Windows software on their Macs, and emulating a different processor architecture is not a viable option.
 
I'm not convinced that Apple's position in the PC market is strong enough to survive this. I don't see important applications like Photoshop being rewritten for a new architecture. And without those it might become difficult. I also think Apple might be underestimating how many users are using Windows software on their Macs, and emulating a different processor architecture is not a viable option.
Photoshop is already being rewritten for that architecture. You can download a version today.
 
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I'm not convinced that Apple's position in the PC market is strong enough to survive this. I don't see important applications like Photoshop being rewritten for a new architecture. And without those it might become difficult. I also think Apple might be underestimating how many users are using Windows software on their Macs, and emulating a different processor architecture is not a viable option.
What makes you think Photoshop has to be rewritten for ARM? You don't write your code for a specific CPU for the most part, unless it's in Assembly or something.
 
Except for Apple themselves, making Mac on ARM will be *hard* as you suggest. For us programmers, not as hard, though there's likely to be gotchas, for users, maybe no difference at all, but I don't see it being very fast, especially the x86 emulation.
I expect Apple has had macOS running on ARM chips for a while already, just the way they had it running on x86 long before they announced it.The lower end of everything, kernel stuff - that’s essentially the same as iOS, so that part has been there for a long time.

I think most operations have the potential to be as fast if not faster - because Apple is in control of everything at that point and can build in the amount of performance they need. x86 emulation will, indeed, be a big problem though (since it’ll be emulation instead of virtualization), if they don’t build hybrid machines with both CPUs, and it will take a lot of work to get right.
 
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