Macbook 2016 - disappointing experience.

[izzyfanto]

With all change in life, some people readily adapt and it becomes the norm, others want it to stay the way it was. I happen to touch type lightly and therefore this keyboard is wonderful and actually something I consider a selling feature on the MB, while the people who bang and smash when they type, this keyboard apparently causes pain and is exhausting. The design is not bad. It's different. Somehow keyboard bangers equate non-standard with bad.

 

[kis]

With all change in life, some people readily adapt and it becomes the norm, others want it to stay the way it was. .

Nope - you're completely wrong here. I'm certainly not resistant to change. I love exploring and checking out new things. But new / change doesn't equal 'better' in every instance and the new keyboard is most certainly not better. It's a compromise some people are willing to live with and others aren't. If Apple pushes that keyboard to all of its product range, it is they who will have to live with change - namely me and countless others switching to another brand. Some people actually do use their laptops professionally and need to type a crapload of text - and for many of them, that keyboard compromise will be a no-go. There was a time when there was no alternative to Apple computers, but in the age of the Surface Book and Surface Pro, alternatives are definitely out there and switching isn't really an issue anymore. I doubt Apple is willing to lose customers, especially after the recent decline in sales.

 

[izzyfanto]

Nope - you're completely wrong here. I'm certainly not resistant to change. I love exploring and checking out new things. But new / change doesn't equal 'better' in every instance and the new keyboard is most certainly not better. It's a compromise some people are willing to live with and others aren't. If Apple pushes that keyboard to all of its product range, it is they who will have to live with change - namely me and countless others switching to another brand. Some people actually do use their laptops professionally and need to type a crapload of text - and for many of them, that keyboard compromise will be a no-go. There was a time when there was no alternative to Apple computers, but in the age of the Surface Book and Surface Pro, alternatives are definitely out there and switching isn't really an issue anymore. I doubt Apple is willing to lose customers, especially after the recent decline in sales.

Ok, that statement doesn't apply to you then. It just seems like the people who don't like it say they wish it had a lot of key travel, and those have been the people who say they bang at the keys. And it seems those people cannot fathom other people liking it. I'm one of them, and there are many others on these forums. This is my favorite keyboard out of any MB I've owned. For some reason people then assume I don't know how to type, or I don't type very much. You said it's "certainly not better....it's a compromise". I couldn't disagree more. I understand it doesn't work for you and others, but it works great for me. Some people want a lot of key travel, some want very little.

 

[kis]

Ok, that statement doesn't apply to you then. It just seems like the people who don't like it say they wish it had a lot of key travel, .

It's not just about travel. Whenever I type on my MacBook, it feels like I'm typing on a block of wood - I don't type slower on it (except when it misses strokes, which tends to happen). Apart from that, I get hand pain from it - it's not very ergonomical. The problem is that Apple was known for making excellent and comfortable keyboards that didn't cause RSI etc. To me, the MacBook's keyboard is a step back in all these points. It's also bad publicity - there's hardly a review that doesn't criticize the keyboard.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who either don't care what they're typing on or somehow talk themselves into liking the keyboard. Fair enough - those will also be the people who don't mind the lack of ports or the lack of power the MacBook delivers. I bought the MacBook because I had no choice if I wanted to stick with a Mac and not compromise on screen quality. But by now I'm ready do move on to a Windows laptop. I still have my powerhouse 15" rMBP, but if Apple decides to force that Keyboard on all users, that'll be the end of my 15-something-year love affair with Apple computers.

 

[izzyfanto]

It's not just about travel. Whenever I type on my MacBook, it feels like I'm typing on a block of wood - I don't type slower on it (except when it misses strokes, which tends to happen). Apart from that, I get hand pain from it - it's not very ergonomical. The problem is that Apple was known for making excellent and comfortable keyboards that didn't cause RSI etc. To me, the MacBook's keyboard is a step back in all these points. It's also bad publicity - there's hardly a review that doesn't criticize the keyboard.

Fair enough. I can understand if it causes you pain why you don't like it. Regarding the reviews comment though, I wonder how many tech blogs just regurgitate general consensus of how terrible it is or don't spend a lot of time with it since they're just quickly reviewing a model they'll return.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who either don't care what they're typing on or somehow talk themselves into liking the keyboard. Fair enough - those will also be the people who don't mind the lack of ports or the lack of power the MacBook delivers. I bought the MacBook because I had no choice if I wanted to stick with a Mac and not compromise on screen quality. But by now I'm ready do move on to a Windows laptop. I still have my powerhouse 15" rMBP, but if Apple decides to force that Keyboard on all users, that'll be the end of my 15-something-year love affair with Apple computers.

I'd say there's a third category; people who actually liked it from the beginning. I'm one of them. And yes, I don't need power and I rarely use ports. Bought a cheap $10 adapter for the time I might need to.

 

[jgbr]

I tried it again this weekend. My first time it seemed speedy but this time I tried PDF's and felt it lagged alot. As i work mostly in PDF's this is a major issue for me.

 

[ZipZap]

That is an ignorant statement.

If (Design != StandardDesign){
Design = BadDesign;
System.out.print("All Hail StandardDesign, for only the idiot typists use " + Design);
}

Terrible logic.

No more ignorant than you saying nothing is wrong.

 

[Coco Nuts]

As far as the keyboard goes, I suggest users try the new Magic Keyboard if they haven't already. The new Magic Keyboards have the same butterfly key design however these keys have more of a rigidity to them. I'm not positive but I'd argue they have slightly more travel, as well.

I think we can expect something more similar to the Magic Keyboard than the rMB as far as what to expect from the new MBPs. After all, there were some compromises that had to be made to accommodate the thinness and compromised keyboard real estate of the rMB since it is so small. The new MBPs won't have to make the same compromises since they won't have to worry about size concerns nearly as much.

Where did you read that? On apple.com it says scissor mechanism.

 

[Trey M]

Where did you read that? On apple.com it says scissor mechanism.

You're actually correct. Just looked at some writing on this-- when the new magic keyboard came out, I read an article that mistakenly assumed it used the new mechanism since it had different feedback, so I had assumed that was the case. However it's now clear they've just used an enhanced scissor mechanism on the new Magic Keyboards. Same principles as the butterfly design but with different feedback.

I expect the new Pros to have keyboard feedback that resembles the feedback on the new Magic Keyboard design.

Source: https://sixcolors.com/post/2015/10/apple-magic-keyboard-review/

 

[boltjames]

No more ignorant than you saying nothing is wrong.

Is a banana "wrong" because 10% of the world doesn't like the way they taste?

BJ

 

[deeddawg]

Is a banana "wrong" because 10% of the world doesn't like the way they taste?

Yes, the banana should be more inclusive and come in more flavors such as orange, pineapple, mango, or pomegranate. The banana's refusal to do so disenfranchises all the people who want their fruit preference in the same convenient, easy to eat with no mess format. We should boycott all bananas until they come around and become more inclusive.

 

[turbineseaplane]

The keyboard really is "a bridge too far" in my opinion.
Anything thinner/slimmer than the Magic Keyboard just offers nothing in the way of feedback.

It really does matter (key feedback) to have a great, fast, accurate and pleasurable typing experience for me.

I understand that some like it - it just is really not for me, which sucks, as I do like having a laptop so I'm a bit scared about the overall direction. I really don't need them any thinner. Just please stop stripping away features to make everything thin as a knife edge Apple!

 

[boltjames]

Yes, the banana should be more inclusive and come in more flavors such as orange, pineapple, mango, or pomegranate. The banana's refusal to do so disenfranchises all the people who want their fruit preference in the same convenient, easy to eat with no mess format. We should boycott all bananas until they come around and become more inclusive.

BJ

 

[zhenya]

It's not just about travel. Whenever I type on my MacBook, it feels like I'm typing on a block of wood - I don't type slower on it (except when it misses strokes, which tends to happen). Apart from that, I get hand pain from it - it's not very ergonomical. The problem is that Apple was known for making excellent and comfortable keyboards that didn't cause RSI etc. To me, the MacBook's keyboard is a step back in all these points. It's also bad publicity - there's hardly a review that doesn't criticize the keyboard.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who either don't care what they're typing on or somehow talk themselves into liking the keyboard. Fair enough - those will also be the people who don't mind the lack of ports or the lack of power the MacBook delivers. I bought the MacBook because I had no choice if I wanted to stick with a Mac and not compromise on screen quality. But by now I'm ready do move on to a Windows laptop. I still have my powerhouse 15" rMBP, but if Apple decides to force that Keyboard on all users, that'll be the end of my 15-something-year love affair with Apple computers.

I happen to care a lot about what I type on - my main work keyboard is a modified Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro that, with the modifications, ran me well north of $300. I have a couple of other mechanical keyboards as well. I also have a Surface Pro with the SP4 keyboard, and have owned a rMB as my personal device for most of the past year. The keyboard is different, that's for sure, but there is no problem with it if you are willing to honestly assess your typing form.

I have been typing for over 30 years, thought I was a pretty decent touch typist since I could do almost anything I needed to do without looking and was faster than most of my peers. A couple of years ago however I started to look more closely at how I typed because I was spending so much of the day doing it and was starting to have some finger pain. I realized I had a few major flaws in my typing style that were responsible, and so I spent several months teaching myself to type properly from the ground up. It was hard work. I had to first forget everything I already knew, and for most of that couple of months I was much, much slower than I'd been since I was learning as a kid. However, I fixed all my bad habits, and came out the other side able to type consistently at about double the rate I could before, (and across all keys, not just the frequently used ones), and more importantly, I no longer have any pain. One of the issues I had to fix was how hard I hit the keys. I learned all about various different kind of key switches and the fact that most of them are intentionally designed with an activation point that is triggered before you bottom out the key. This is the most ergonomic way to type, and the fastest, it turns out. The keyboard on the rMB is a good one because it recognizes this characteristic, and implements it in a keyboard with virtually no travel. I consider it like a racing car; it's hard core and doesn't offer any comfort for novices; but it does everything it needs to and nothing more.

Like so many other things in life though, most people would prefer to be coddled and never forced to examine their own habits too closely, so the rMB keyboard, being different, is also automatically terrible.

The keyboard really is "a bridge too far" in my opinion.
Anything thinner/slimmer than the Magic Keyboard just offers nothing in the way of feedback.

It really does matter (key feedback) to have a great, fast, accurate and pleasurable typing experience for me.

I understand that some like it - it just is really not for me, which sucks, as I do like having a laptop so I'm a bit scared about the overall direction. I really don't need them any thinner. Just please stop stripping away features to make everything thin as a knife edge Apple!

This is categorically not true. The keyboard on the rMB offers excellent tactile feedback, but you have to have a light enough touch to be able to feel it before you bottom out the keys and all you feel is your fingers smashing into the chassis.

 

[boltjames]

Just please stop stripping away features to make everything thin as a knife edge Apple!

Thing is, Apple didn't drop the Air or the Pro, it's not like there aren't other options with more spacious and springy keyboards.

Hey, I'd love a 1080p cam in the RMB, it's a shame it doesn't have one. But I knew this going in, I made the conscious decision to live with a poor quality Skype experience in exchange for knife-edge thinness and feather lightness, so I can sleep at night, I'm not tormented by bananas and stringing up Jony Ive voodoo dolls.

BJ

 

[turbineseaplane]

This is categorically not true. The keyboard on the rMB offers excellent tactile feedback, but you have to have a light enough touch to be able to feel it before you bottom out the keys and all you feel is your fingers smashing into the chassis.

That's completely subjective - It does not offer enough feedback for some of us.
Can we just agree to disagree?

Nobody is "right" here - Just different preferences.
[doublepost=1463422633][/doublepost]

Thing is, Apple didn't drop the Air or the Pro, it's not like there aren't other options with more spacious and springy keyboards.

As I indicated in the post... I'm concerned about the "direction" of the laptop line.
Remember, we have yet to see the new Pro laptops.
There is every reason to believe they'll follow a lot of the design aesthetic and decisions of the rMB.

 

[Trey M]

The keyboard really is "a bridge too far" in my opinion.
Anything thinner/slimmer than the Magic Keyboard just offers nothing in the way of feedback.

It really does matter (key feedback) to have a great, fast, accurate and pleasurable typing experience for me.

I understand that some like it - it just is really not for me, which sucks, as I do like having a laptop so I'm a bit scared about the overall direction. I really don't need them any thinner. Just please stop stripping away features to make everything thin as a knife edge Apple!

I think it's unrealistic to expect that it won't be thinner. The last MBP update made the chassis significantly lighter/thinner in the 15'' 2012 and it was very well received. I think there's tons of users, including myself, who have a desire for a thinner, lighter machine.

As I said above, though, I really don't think we'll see the rMB keyboard in the Pro. Each of Apple's current notebook lines have keyboards with different feedback. The Air and Pro are similar but there is definitely a difference between a Pro and Air keyboard in terms of feedback. I think it's totally logical for there to be a keyboard with more travel, albeit it wouldn't be as much travel as a 2015 MBP, for example.

 

[lite426]

For me the keyboard was great at first, I've never typed as fast on any other keyboard. 180 WPM on the 10fastfingers site. And accurate as well. It's noisy though. And now, a few months later I'm experiencing the finger pain. There were also occasionally keys that seemed to accumulate dirt under them and would be hard to press, that self fixed themselves. I haven't checked if I have one still. Also, I'm someone who prides myself on being able to type with a light touch. But over the course of many many keystrokes this really hurts. For those of you who say you haven't experienced any pain, I wonder how long you've had the machine. I've used it as my primary and only computer for a few months, typing extensively.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I really don't think we'll see the rMB keyboard in the Pro.

I hope you're right - For me the rMB keyboard is a complete non-starter.
Would be devastating to me if that became "the" laptop keyboard across the line.

That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence to indicate they'd do anything *but* put the rMB keyboard in the Pro laptops also.

The new desktop keyboard is barely any better than the rMB keyboard. You don't really think the Pro laptops are going to have more travel than the desktop keyboard do you? (Magic Keyboard)

Seems like the only best hope is that the Pro laptops essentially get the Magic Keyboard in them.

 

[ahostmadsen]

The RMB is a gigantic functional compromise for the sake of form factor. Get it?

1080p camera? Nope. Current-era fast processor? Nope. Fan for cooling and performance? Nope. USB port? Nope. VGA port? Nope. HDMI port? Nope. Large 14" display? Nope. Thick chassis to accommodate super responsive keyboard? Nope.

The DESIGN is not bad. The expectations of certain USERS is. I must be a genius. I read reviews, saw videos, spent time in Apple stores, took advantage of the gracious return period, and I'm perfectly happy with all aspects of the keyboard. Not everyone is so smart it seems.

BJ

It seems in this thread like one is only allowed to love everything about the rMB, or hate it. I love everything about the rMB, except the keyboard. The keyboard is just acceptable. But the rest is good enough that I can live with the keyboard. I realize there has to be compromises.

 

[Bonaqua]

I absolutely love everything about the Macbook besides the keyboard. I gave the it another shot with the 2016 model but my fingers ache severely after a short time of typing. I was able to readjust to the new magic keyboard which I suspect might be because of differences in travel, key size and placement.

I do not know if I would go so far to say that the design of the keyboard itself is subpar, especially in regards to other Macbook product lines; but I definitely think this design is less ergonomically forgiving for people like myself. Which sucks because I love the idea this peculiar Macbook embodies. Light, fanless and incredibly mobile -- a perfect companion device for my iMac and in all probability a great device on it own as well.

Tldr is YMMV I guess.

 

[tom123]

Its a non-standard keyboard. Everyone used to a standard keyboard will have trouble. Some get used to it...but most of us do not as we use standard keyboards daily.

IMO, anyone who says they love this keyboard out of the box barely uses a computer and thus does not have to unlearn finger positions and muscle memory.

And don't forget the dictation key, great for those who can't spell, I hit the fn key twice and away I go. Love the arrow keys for correction. (What was Apple thinking on the iPad, No Arrow keys – fat fingers)

Who doesn't like banana daiquiris?

 

[izzyfanto]

No more ignorant than you saying nothing is wrong.

Your are putting words in my mouth and summarizing a polarizing issue improperly. I said it's great for me, and many others who type light, but obviously it's not the keyboard for people who bottom out the keys by banging or typing very hard.

You said:

...anyone who says they love this keyboard out of the box barely uses a computer...

I repeat: this is ignorant, at best. It's more like gratuitous arrogance and generalization.

It really does matter (key feedback) to have a great, fast, accurate and pleasurable typing experience for me. I understand that some like it - it just is really not for me....

This is a cohesive, informed, and constructive statement.

 

[boltjames]

As I indicated in the post... I'm concerned about the "direction" of the laptop line.
Remember, we have yet to see the new Pro laptops.
There is every reason to believe they'll follow a lot of the design aesthetic and decisions of the rMB.

You can pass judgement if and when Apple decides to tweak the keyboards in the Pro and Air.

And if they do something to those keyboards to compromise the typing experience you have every right to be upset because those are full-sized, traditional workhorse notebooks whose mission is to deliver workstation-class performance to its cubicle-laden owners.

However, the RMB is immune to keyboard criticism because it's mission is different. It's not the notebook for professional media creation, it's not the notebook for novelists, it's not the notebook for coding gaming platforms, it's not a notebook for someone to use 24/7 as a replacement for a Pro or an Air. The RMB is designed for maximum portability and places a premium for that over everything else. The RMB is designed for a backpacking college student on a sprawling campus, a daily subway commuter whose job is mostly responding to email, or as a second-notebook for a world-traveling EVP who doesn't want to drag the ridiculously heavy company notebook through airport security, into the business-class lounge, and to the hotel.

The RMB purchase process begins with a single question: "Are you willing to compromise performance and features in order to get a notebook optimized for form-factor and portability? Once you answer 'yes', you know what to expect, there are no surprises. This keyboard criticism, and frankly all RMB criticism, comes from people who bought the wrong machine.

BJ

 

[drewjonn]

My eighth Apple laptop in the last 12 years, 7 of them were all wonderful.

a bit about me .. developer using XCode, Eclipse, IntelliJ, MySQL and other backend applications (ElasticSearch, Postgres, MongoDB etc). Youtube and browsing. No gaming, no Photoshop, no video-editing, no movies, no music.

Wanted to move from a 15 inch Macbook Pro to a Macbook 12 for mobility reasons.

The goods: powerful, I did not experience any slowdown on any of the applications that I was using. Wonderful screen, good speaker.

the bad: the keyboard: I read a lot about the butterfly keyboard. tried it at the apple store. didn't like it, but was confident I'll get used to it, so bought the machine last week.

This is the worst keyboard I've ever set my finger on. The more I used it, the more I hated it. (despite the individual keys being 17% larger!) , I press a wrong key every 5 keys on average, there is no feedback and worse yet, some of the keys needed to be pressed a little harder for them to be registered ( 4,5, S and 7 - this is really surprising: is it all the macbooks or just mine, and if that's the case, the first lemon in my 25+ Apple hardware so far )

And then, a couple of times, when the computer woke from sleep, it started showing the 'flashing folder with a question mark' screen!

Needless to say, I returned the macbook today, my first ever Apple rejection.

So, the wait continues..

Heard that they fixed the keyboard thing, but it was mainly about the noise. Do they at least fix that problem?