Macbook 2016 - disappointing experience.

[turbineseaplane]

...pass judgement if and when Apple decides to tweak the keyboards in the Pro and Air.

Right now I'm passing judgment on the direction the laptops and all the keyboards have been going, which I tried to make clear in my posts.

The Magic Keyboard features barely any more key travel or feedback than the rMB keyboard.

What would lead you to think a new Pro laptop would have a keyboard with more travel and feedback than the desktop offering?

That's completely counterintuitive.

 

[boltjames]

Right now I'm passing judgment on the direction the laptops and all the keyboards have been going, which I tried to make clear in my posts.

The Magic Keyboard features barely any more key travel or feedback than the rMB keyboard.

What would lead you to think a new Pro laptop would have a keyboard with more travel and feedback than the desktop offering?

That's completely counterintuitive.

First off, this is a conversation for the Pro and Air subforums; this is the 12" MacBook subforum and the end result of the Pro and Air redesign is of no consequence to us. We purchased the RMB, we therefore are comfortable with the keyboard and it's few detriments.

Next, the Magic Wireless Keyboard is an accessory designed and compromised to be thin and small (sound familiar?) whereas the Numeric Wired Keyboard is more spacious and has a lot of fans.

Apple will not mess with the Pro or Air keyboards at all as the feel and typing experience of the chicklets are as essential to the UI as OSX is. What, 90% of the world's media is written on MacBook Pro's and Air's, what you fear would be akin to Boeing removing rudder pedals from their aircraft, it simply isn't going to happen.

BJ

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple will not mess with the Pro or Air keyboards at all as the feel and typing experience of the chicklets are as essential to the UI as OS X is..

...it simply isn't going to happen.

BJ

You should read the Apple marketing material on the Magic KB & rMB keyboard (posted as images below).

Apple feels they are *better* than the chiclet keyboards, which is the strongest indicator that the Pro's will get new keyboards once a redesign happens.

This is setting up to be, as Gruber would say, "claim chowder"

I'm in the camp of "they absolutely will change the current keyboards on the Pros".
I'd love to be wrong on this by the way...

Anyways - We'll move along and circle back once the new MacBook Pro revisions are out, presumably this year at some point.

 

[boltjames]

Ok - I'm bookmarking this so we can re-visit as I strongly disagree.
This is possibly setting up to be, as Gruber would say, "claim chowder"

I'm in the camp of "they absolutely will change the current keyboards on the Pros".
I'd love to be wrong on this by the way...

Anyways - We'll move along and circle back once the new MacBook Pro revisions are out, presumably this year at some point.

Okay, that's fine, it's not like I've ever been wrong before (ha).

For the record, I think the keyboards will be tweaked on the Pro and the Air in an effort to make them thinner towards an overall goal of notebook size/weight reduction BUT I don't think the typing experience will be different (chicklet layout, good travel, just like current models, etc.).

BJ

 

[Trey M]

Apple will not mess with the Pro or Air keyboards at all as the feel and typing experience of the chicklets are as essential to the UI as OSX is.

BJ

I gotta disagree as well. If anything we should examine Apple's most recent moves to determine what will happen going forward. The rMB had a focus on stability with low key travel. Looking at the marketing material above, it was optimized for stability as well as 'optimized key travel'. Clearly there's a focus on improving the mechanism beneath to key to focus on improving the overall stability. It would be silly for Apple to not bring what they clearly believe is an innovation to their latest Pro notebook.

Exactly what keyboard experience Apple will introduce in the next MBP is anyone's guess, however I can pretty much guarantee that there will be a difference between the keyboard on a 2015 MBP and a 2016 MBP.

 

[Bonaqua]

Okay, that's fine, it's not like I've ever been wrong before (ha).

For the record, I think the keyboards will be tweaked on the Pro and the Air in an effort to make them thinner towards an overall goal of notebook size/weight reduction BUT I don't think the typing experience will be different (chicklet layout, good travel, just like current models, etc.).

BJ

Hm, then why did they reduce travel etc on the magic keyboard? I definitely think they will move to make the keyboard experience more cohesive and uniform across the different product categories.

 

[boltjames]

I gotta disagree as well. If anything we should examine Apple's most recent moves to determine what will happen going forward. The rMB had a focus on stability with low key travel. Looking at the marketing material above, it was optimized for stability as well as 'optimized key travel'. Clearly there's a focus on improving the mechanism beneath to key to focus on improving the overall stability. It would be silly for Apple to not bring what they clearly believe is an innovation to their latest Pro notebook.

Exactly what keyboard experience Apple will introduce in the next MBP is anyone's guess, however I can pretty much guarantee that there will be a difference between the keyboard on a 2015 MBP and a 2016 MBP.

At the launch keynote, Apple made it clear that the RMB was designed around the keyboard, they wanted a full-sized keyboard and so that set the geometry for the whole device and set the 12" parameter. As a result, they needed to redesign it from the ground up, butterfly mechanism, you know the rest.

But the Air and the Pro are larger and have a lot of room and aren't designed around the keyboard and that's why I don't think we're going to see the chicklet go away.

BJ
[doublepost=1463536389][/doublepost]

Hm, then why did they reduce travel etc on the magic keyboard? I definitely think they will move to make the keyboard experience more cohesive and uniform across the different product categories.

Magic Keyboard is to peripherals what the RMB is to notebooks; it's designed to be as portable as possible.

Not the same case with the Pro and the Air who have a lot of plastic and aluminum to dedicate to key spacing due to the larger screen sizes.

BJ

 

[turbineseaplane]

@BJ: brotha...I think you're living in a dream world.

They aren't going to have rMB and Desktop keyboards with less key travel and feedback than new pro laptops.

Just crazy to think that honestly.

You're doing figure 8 circles to try and justify it in your post above.
Nonsensical.

 

[Bonaqua]

At the launch keynote, Apple made it clear that the RMB was designed around the keyboard, they wanted a full-sized keyboard and so that set the geometry for the whole device and set the 12" parameter. As a result, they needed to redesign it from the ground up, butterfly mechanism, you know the rest.

But the Air and the Pro are larger and have a lot of room and aren't designed around the keyboard and that's why I don't think we're going to see the chicklet go away.

BJ
[doublepost=1463536389][/doublepost]

Magic Keyboard is to peripherals what the RMB is to notebooks; it's designed to be as portable as possible.

Not the same case with the Pro and the Air who have a lot of plastic and aluminum to dedicate to key spacing due to the larger screen sizes.

BJ

I did not know my iMac that the Magic keyboard came along with was intended as a mobile device. TIL.

 

[deeddawg]

I did not know my iMac that the Magic keyboard came along with was intended as a mobile device. TIL.

Sure it is.

 

[boltjames]

I did not know my iMac that the Magic keyboard came along with was intended as a mobile device. TIL.

I did not say it was a mobile device. I said it was designed to be portable. Desk space is at a premium, it tucks away nicely when not in use, some use it on their laps, and we use one expressly for our Apple TV nowhere near a computer or a desk while lying on a couch. Portable.

If you want a comfortable typing experience, get the oversized, plush, and wired version with the integrated keyboard. Once again, you are taking an Apple device designed for one thing and holding it accountable for another. A slim and light RMB is not a next-gen Air, a Bluetooth Magic Keyboard is not designed to be tethered.

BJ

 

[Trey M]

At the launch keynote, Apple made it clear that the RMB was designed around the keyboard, they wanted a full-sized keyboard and so that set the geometry for the whole device and set the 12" parameter. As a result, they needed to redesign it from the ground up, butterfly mechanism, you know the rest.

But the Air and the Pro are larger and have a lot of room and aren't designed around the keyboard and that's why I don't think we're going to see the chicklet go away.

Hard to say if we'll see the chiclet again. My guess is yes since the Magic Keyboard kept it around. I really do expect the MBP keyboard to be very similar to the Magic Keyboard. But I was talking less about design and more about the actual feedback felt from the keys. Chiclet or not, the biggest thing people will complain about on a new MBP will be the different feedback each key gives back versus an older model. People don't so much hate the design of the rMB keyboard they hate the feedback and 'bottoming out' feeling you get when typing. That's assuming they do change the keyboard, but that is the point I'm trying to make. I think the MBP will have more travel than the rMB but considerably less than a 2015 MBP.

However I will mention that I think the Air is officially dead so not thinking we'll see anything changed on that front. I fully expect Apple to sell the Air for years to come but I don't think there's another update ever happening. The best evidence of that should be Apple's 'update' this year: absolutely no changes other than standardizing 8GB RAM on the 13'' model. IMO it's the last update we'll ever see from the MBA (if that even counts as a real update).

 

[han_del]

It's not the notebook for novelists...it's not a notebook for someone to use 24/7 as a replacement for a Pro or an Air. The RMB is designed for maximum portability and places a premium for that over everything else...or as a second-notebook for a world-traveling EVP who doesn't want to drag the ridiculously heavy company notebook through airport security, into the business-class lounge, and to the hotel.

This keyboard criticism, and frankly all RMB criticism, comes from people who bought the wrong machine.

BJ

I completely agree with BJ's comments here. I was thinking about ordering a RMB online without actually trying one out first, but decided to use one at the Apple Store today. I'm glad I did. It strikes me as an excellent machine to travel with. If that's what you're looking for, definitely consider it. But if you do a lot of typing, I would advise you to try it out first. For my typing style, I found that the keys felt way too hard against my fingertips. After an hour or two of writing I think my fingers would definitely get sore on that machine. As BJ wrote, the RMB isn't for novelists (unless they want it only to travel with).

 

[boltjames]

I completely agree with BJ's comments here. I was thinking about ordering a RMB online without actually trying one out first, but decided to use one at the Apple Store today. I'm glad I did. It strikes me as an excellent machine to travel with. If that's what you're looking for, definitely consider it. But if you do a lot of typing, I would advise you to try it out first. For my typing style, I found that the keys felt way too hard against my fingertips. After an hour or two of writing I think my fingers would definitely get sore on that machine. As BJ wrote, the RMB isn't for novelists (unless they want it only to travel with).

Great post. 90% of the complaints about the RMB are from those who never experienced one or who bought it blind. Taking an in-store test drive is a must with a machine like this, glad it helped you.

BJ

 

[kis]

Great post. 90% of the complaints about the RMB are from those who never experienced one or who bought it blind. Taking an in-store test drive is a must with a machine like this, glad it helped you.

BJ

yeah - the problem is: it's very unlike Apple to produce something that such a larger number of people doesn't like - would have never happened under Jobs, that's for sure.

 

[Jayderek]

yeah - the problem is: it's very unlike Apple to produce something that such a larger number of people doesn't like - would have never happened under Jobs, that's for sure.

this makes zero sense

 

[boltjames]

yeah - the problem is: it's very unlike Apple to produce something that such a larger number of people doesn't like - would have never happened under Jobs, that's for sure.

Actually, it makes total sense.

When it comes to iPod and iPhone, the strategy was "homogenization". When it comes to notebooks, different story, it's all about "differentiation". Standardizing iOS devices makes complete sense as we all have the same size pockets, differentiating notebooks makes complete sense as we all have different desktops and workstations and offices and cubicles and airline tray tables. People hate the iPhone 6 Plus, but they have the 6. People can hate the RMB, but they have the Pro and the Air.

BJ
[doublepost=1464028901][/doublepost]

You should read the Apple marketing material on the Magic KB & rMB keyboard (posted as images below).

Apple feels they are *better* than the chiclet keyboards, which is the strongest indicator that the Pro's will get new keyboards once a redesign happens.

I'm in the camp of "they absolutely will change the current keyboards on the Pros".
I'd love to be wrong on this by the way...

Anyways - We'll move along and circle back once the new MacBook Pro revisions are out, presumably this year at some point.

This one is tough to call, but I'm on the side of differentiation seeing as that's at the core of the current MacBook strategy, MacBooks being amongst the most different products within a given family at Apple. Processors, screens, materials, ports, chargers, Apple is going out of their way to make them different from each other and not just in screen sizes.

So as you point to some savvy 2015 RMB marketing praising the Butterfly keyboard, one can argue that Apple will create some new 2016 whizbang keyboard technology called Moth as part of the Pro launch, talk about it's compact size, larger keys, and more substantive travel. I just can't see the notebook used more than any other to create the world's printed and published text having it's renowned keyboard discarded. Their flagship notebook has had the same basic OS for decades, can't see them chucking the keyboard.

BJ

 

[KPOM]

yeah - the problem is: it's very unlike Apple to produce something that such a larger number of people doesn't like - would have never happened under Jobs, that's for sure.

Compare the MacBook to the original MacBook Air back in 2008. That started at $1799 and went all the way up to $2999. The current MacBook is far more mainstream.

 

[turbineseaplane]

@BJ: completely disagree with your entire reasoning there.
Not worth going into again

We shall see soon enough if they change the MBP KB's or not

 

[turbineseaplane]

@boltjames

Don't miss the part here about the new "MacBook-esque keyboards"...



Major MacBook Pro revamp could replace function keys with OLED touch bar

 

[Queen6]

@boltjames

Don't miss the part here about the new "MacBook-esque keyboards"...



Major MacBook Pro revamp could replace function keys with OLED touch bar

The thing I most take away most from the article is Q4. If so WWDC is likely to be another washout same as the last Keynote, just ever more of Tim Cook`s "Pipeline" combined with Apple Exec`s congratulating themselves

"Kuo says they're the "most significant upgrade ever undertaken by Apple" and are planned for the fourth quarter of 2016, with a 13-inch regular MacBook apparently also on the cards."

Nor does Q4 surprise; Apple has sat on it`s laurels far too long basking in the profits of iToys, now that IOS devices sales are falling off, the Mac being pretty much disregarded resulting in the lacklustre lineup we see today. A 40% drop Q on Q Mac sales is hardly surprising, with Apple now needing scramble to revitalise the Mac, needing more time to do so.

Ironically the only Apple product that doesn't disappoint me is the Retina MacBook, the rest I have zero inclination to purchase, too little, too late, too dull, and too greedy. As they say "can't innovate anymore, my ass" only this time Apple actually needs to do something meaningful and stand by it...

Q-6

 

[KPOM]

Nor does Q4 surprise; Apple has sat on it`s laurels far too long basking in the profits of iToys, now that IOS devices sales are falling off, the Mac being pretty much disregarded resulting in the lacklustre lineup we see today. A 40% drop Q on Q Mac sales is hardly surprising, with Apple now needing scramble to revitalise the Mac, needing more time to do so.

Ironically the only Apple product that doesn't disappoint me is the Retina MacBook, the rest I have zero inclination to purchase, too little, too late, too dull, and too greedy. As they say "can't innovate anymore, my ass" only this time Apple actually needs to do something meaningful and stand by it...

Q-6

The 40% QonQ is a function of the post-holiday falloff. My guess is that we'll see something announced at WWDC, perhaps an expanded MacBook line (e.g. 13" or 14"), or an announcement of a MacBook Pro "coming soon."

 

[SteveJUAE]

The thing I most take away most from the article is Q4. If so WWDC is likely to be another washout same as the last Keynote, just ever more of Tim Cook`s "Pipeline" combined with Apple Exec`s congratulating themselves

"Kuo says they're the "most significant upgrade ever undertaken by Apple" and are planned for the fourth quarter of 2016, with a 13-inch regular MacBook apparently also on the cards."

Nor does Q4 surprise; Apple has sat on it`s laurels far too long basking in the profits of iToys, now that IOS devices sales are falling off, the Mac being pretty much disregarded resulting in the lacklustre lineup we see today. A 40% drop Q on Q Mac sales is hardly surprising, with Apple now needing scramble to revitalise the Mac, needing more time to do so.

Ironically the only Apple product that doesn't disappoint me is the Retina MacBook, the rest I have zero inclination to purchase, too little, too late, too dull, and too greedy. As they say "can't innovate anymore, my ass" only this time Apple actually needs to do something meaningful and stand by it...

Q-6

Your underestimating the over reaction and claims of it was worth the 2-8 years wait that only Apple could do ......not

The rMB was a clever niche device that sits in a unique position and probably is doing better than it should due to the other poor offerings in the Apple line-up . Like the IPP Apple seem to go out of there way to distinguish themselves to other offerings so they can maintain high prices amongst other things whilst giving less,

It will be interesting to see the new line-up and how they manage to dodge between the raindrops of the array of other OEM's

 

[boltjames]

@boltjames

Don't miss the part here about the new "MacBook-esque keyboards"...

Major MacBook Pro revamp could replace function keys with OLED touch bar

Oh boy, if Apple does this there will be a revolution! I'm buying Microsoft stock, pronto!

BJ

 

[turbineseaplane]

Oh boy, if Apple does this there will be a revolution! I'm buying Microsoft stock, pronto!

BJ

It's coming bud.... Get ready!

Apple thinks their new keyboards are *better* and thus some version of that between the rMB & Magic KB will be in the new MBP's. Book it.