Macbook Pro 2016 keyboard ergonomy

[New_Mac_Smell]

There are definitely issues but I've heard people saying the 2017 is slightly altered and I think ifixit found that too. Im hoping it fixes things but it could be too soon to tell

The 2016 MacBook Pro released with a V2 butterfly keyboard, the V1 was the retina MacBook from 2015. The 2017 rMB released with the same V2 keyboard. There is no V3. Check ifixit.com yourself, there is no mention of an updated keyboard on the 2017 MBP, only the 2017 rMB.

I had the sticky key issue when I first got the device, but it cleared up after a few days of use. I thought it was down to tight manufacturing tolerances/mass production/transportation (Temperature). Either way after that settling in period it's never come back.

 

[epca12]

The 2016 MacBook Pro released with a V2 butterfly keyboard, the V1 was the retina MacBook from 2015. The 2017 rMB released with the same V2 keyboard. There is no V3. Check ifixit.com yourself, there is no mention of an updated keyboard on the 2017 MBP, only the 2017 rMB.

I had the sticky key issue when I first got the device, but it cleared up after a few days of use. I thought it was down to tight manufacturing tolerances/mass production/transportation (Temperature). Either way after that settling in period it's never come back.

I know, i'm not saying there is a 3rd gen keyboard i'm just saying some have said it feels slightly tweaked and I think ifixit did say it was slightly altered but maybe that was the 12 inch keyboard compared to the Pro keyboard. Its a shame that their choice of form over function for the keyboard has led to many issues, to the point where we're looking forward to the next iteration of keyboard in the hope that it fixes issues on the current gen

 

[CaptRB]

The problem is the feel of the keyboard is different, and there's a lot of speculative consumers out there. People want to love Apple because, Apple. People walk in to a store and touch it and immediately feel a difference, then think it's terrible which satisfies their desire. They want one, but can't justify it, so the keyboards naff, that's why I don't have it.

Truth be told people absolutely love the keyboard. After using it for a couple of weeks myself it felt like night and day going back to an older keyboard. I used to think my old keyboard was the best around, after using this new machine it's really hard to go back.

There are a lot of office typers out there too, people with huge travel old style Microsoft keyboards at the office PC. If you've come from that to a shallow laptop keyboard it will feel really odd at first, as it's going from one extreme to the other. So if you're used to high travel keyboards and are smashing this thing hamfisted then you're going to have a bad time. If you're a softer typer whose used to laptop or low travel keyboards then you'll be fine.

Either way perpetrating this illusion that it's a marmite issue of 50% love/hate is nonsense. I'm not doubting there's people out there who genuinely hate it (For whatever reason), but it's more like 1%.

You can have your reasons, nobody is sticking up for the machine because it's Apple, it's genuinely a really good keyboard. It feels like a quick responsive mechanical keyboard, I can type a lot faster on it with the larger keys and because it's so low travel they snap back instantly.

The only potential issue I can see with it is feedback, I touch type so it's not a problem, but I can see an issue if you need to look at it perhaps. But this is made for the mass modern market after all.

I've yet to see a genuine complaint though, it is as others have pointed out the occasional person who doesn't own one making a comment. Or people saying they keep hitting the TB, and one or two who say they rest their hands on the keyboard? I rest my fingers on F/J where their meant to be, don't have an issue.

Well said. It's become laughable to read this silly stuff after 6 months. 1%, heck, maybe even 3% don't love the new keyboard. But everyone that I know thinks it's better. My friend who is a genius bar manager says the keyboard is a hit.

And that's because it is. It has more feedback, feels responsive and so much tighter...the old one is mush!

I agree, some folks tapped the new keyboard and went ugh! Now I don't have to buy it and I can bash it on the interweb for 30 weeks! Yay!

But like you said, the vast majority need an EXCUSE. I know for a fact that two people in this forum claim to have the machine, but actually don't. They're regulars. It's funny stuff to hear people complain about ergonomics with zero stick time on these machines.

But hey...they lose out! More Mac for me! ;-)


R.

 

[turbineseaplane]

One can only hope but at this point we only have generation 2 of the keyboard and unlike prior MBP releases this has been met with stiff resistance and high volume of people complaining about defects. Sure in the past we've had a fair amount of negativity on a new model, but it was solidly built. This time it seems that the MBP is too thin for its own good and the keyboard is suffering from that mindset.

Totally agree - It doesn't bode well for the longevity of these boards based upon how it has gone so far.

 

[GtrDude]

And here we go again. Do tell us, what kind of drawback do you see from the laptop being thinner?
[doublepost=1497377471][/doublepost]

Well, as we are discussing, the keyboard for one major thing.

I also wouldn't mind if the laptop were thicker and had a larger battery. Much much larger.

I also wouldn't mind a thicker laptop if I didn't need any dongles. Me carrying around dongles kinda more than makes up for the weight saved with the laptop.

Another thing I wouldn't mind in a thicker laptop is a better video card.

I don't care about this but the reason they couldn't keep the mac logo lit up is because of the thinness of the laptop.

There is literally NO benefit in shaving the weight off. Especially since you have to live with crazy keyboard, lame battery, carry around dongles that weigh more etc. etc.
[doublepost=1497418381][/doublepost]

I don't agree that it takes 3 minutes to adapt, at least generally. But I do agree that after a week or two, everyone I know prefers it and even claims to type faster.

I used the keyboard on my 2016 machine for 6 to 8 hours a day for a month and when I still hated it and felt like I was developing major wrist pain I returned the machine.
Back on 2015 and things got better.
[doublepost=1497418548][/doublepost]

Anyone who says otherwise is either typing with two fingers whilst occasionally squinting at the screen, does not own one, is terrified at the thought of change, or is just a fanboy loathed to change anything they hold as sacred.

I could also say that anyone who loves the keyboard is either a fanboy who loves everything Apple does no matter what or doesn't use they keyboard for more than an hour or two a day.
A real forum commando.
It's easy to invent rules like that back and forth.

 

[leman]

Well, as we are discussing, the keyboard for one major thing.

I also wouldn't mind if the laptop were thicker and had a larger battery. Much much larger.

I also wouldn't mind a thicker laptop if I didn't need any dongles. Me carrying around dongles kinda more than makes up for the weight saved with the laptop.

Another thing I wouldn't mind in a thicker laptop is a better video card.

I don't care about this but the reason they couldn't keep the mac logo lit up is because of the thinness of the laptop.

There is literally NO benefit in shaving the weight off. Especially since you have to live with crazy keyboard, lame battery, carry around dongles that weigh more etc. etc.

What you are saying basically is that you don't like MacBook Pro's design — and I am not talking about the current iteration, I am taking about MacBook Pro as Apple has ever made it, because it never had all these features you describe. This has nothing to do with the thinner or weight of a computer, you simply want a computer that has very different design priorities that what Apple has been doing for the past 20 years. Frankly, I find it a bit strange that you are even on these forums. I mean, I don't go to Clevo enthusiast community and complain how heavy and thick those machines are.

P.S. My USB-C dock that includes multiple USB-A ports, ethernet, HDMI, two card readers and path-through charging is 66 gram. So much for "dongles that weight more". Not to mention that the new MBP is the first Apple laptop ever that has the potential to completely avoid dongles altogether.

 

[maflynn]

I also wouldn't mind if the laptop were thicker and had a larger battery. Much much larger.

Apple seems obsessed with thinness but then that's not really earth shattering news

I too would prefer a slightly thicker laptop if it provided increased the user experience whether we're talking about the tried and true keyboard or more ports. While I do wonder why Apple went and shrank the battery, I'm not that worked up over it. The dongles are such that we'll have to get used to it. I lamented the loss of the SD card slot and HDMI but those issues can be overcome. The keyboard is a different matter - at least to me.

 

[polbit]

The only reason Apple has designed the new keyboard is to make the new laptops thinner. There is no other reason to take out key travel which is essential to comfortable and fast typing. Yes, I've seen people get used to the new keyboard, but to say it's actually better is pure fanboyism. Have you seen any good desktop, low-travel keyboards? No? Hmm, I wonder why...

With the new iPads, it's now pretty obvious, if it wasn't before, where Apple is heading. We are at the beginning of the end of MacOS, at least on portable devices in near term, and de-contenting the MacBooks is a sad but obvious move.

 

[epca12]

The 2016 MacBook Pro released with a V2 butterfly keyboard, the V1 was the retina MacBook from 2015. The 2017 rMB released with the same V2 keyboard. There is no V3. Check ifixit.com yourself, there is no mention of an updated keyboard on the 2017 MBP, only the 2017 rMB.

I had the sticky key issue when I first got the device, but it cleared up after a few days of use. I thought it was down to tight manufacturing tolerances/mass production/transportation (Temperature). Either way after that settling in period it's never come back.

Looks like could be right about this. Also having used both, I knew there was something different and that is being affirmed by others https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/good-news-for-2017-macbook-pro-keyboard.2049894/

 

[GtrDude]

V2 is not that much better. The difference is barely perceptible.
Instead of a fly landing on the V1 keyboard and causing a key to go down, with V2 it takes a roach.

 

[maflynn]

The only reason Apple has designed the new keyboard is to make the new laptops thinner. There is no other reason to take out key travel

Agreed, and the its odd to hear that people keep saying you'll get used to it, adjust to it, accept it. Seems like making excuses for having a keyboard that is inferior to a full keyboard - inferior at least in its feel and performance.

Perhaps I'd get used to it, and if I want to remain in the Apple ecosystem, I'd have to accept it for the most part. For now, I'm sitting on the sidelines using my 2012 rMBP.

 

[leman]

Agreed, and the its odd to hear that people keep saying you'll get used to it, adjust to it, accept it. Seems like making excuses for having a keyboard that is inferior to a full keyboard - inferior at least in its feel and performance.

Maflynn, thats really the question of personal preference and taste. I honestly prefer the new keyboard — it has larger, more stable keys and less press resistance, which allow me to type faster, more accurately and with less fatigue to my fingers. And that is not my imagination, its a fact. I spend a good part of the day typing on my computer, and the new keyboard has been a great improvement. And I am certainly not alone with this.

Are there drawbacks? Sure! Stuff gets stuck under the keys more easier (don't want to eat cookies near this one!) — fortunately nothing that compressed air can't solve. The keyboard is also very difficult to type on when I am lying on my back and having the laptop on my stomach — but that is REALLY a first word problem

 

[Queen6]

Agreed, and the its odd to hear that people keep saying you'll get used to it, adjust to it, accept it. Seems like making excuses for having a keyboard that is inferior to a full keyboard - inferior at least in its feel and performance.

Perhaps I'd get used to it, and if I want to remain in the Apple ecosystem, I'd have to accept it for the most part. For now, I'm sitting on the sidelines using my 2012 rMBP.

I agree that the typing experience has diminished and clearly inferior to other options now on the marketplace. End of the day if these extremely low throw keyboards offered any significant ergonomic or performance advantage they would be far more prolific with the likes of professional typists etc. they are not and for good reasons.

The keys do offer more stability over the previous iterations of the MBP, equally so does my Surface Book which has decent travel, as does Lenovo's X1 Carbon, arguably two of the best keyboards, short of stepping up to a larger notebook. Same as the rMB Apple was simply determined and IMHO overly obsessed with reducing the overall thickness of the MBP the current keyboard is a direct result of that exercise.

rMB I can live with, although I have grow to dislike it over the last 25 months, as it's a business traveller, I generally don't use the keyboard heavily or for long periods of time. Personally I feel this was an unnecessary move on Apple's behalf, solely being thiner for the sake of being thinner, which in this class of hardware only brings diminishing returns, resulting in an overly compromised system for many.

Another aspect is I have never observed so many threads/posts with MBP users having issues with stuck keys or malfunctioning keyboards, how widespread this is only Apple knows, equally an indicator to some level of issue at hand. As ever it's highly unlikely Apple will ever admit any fault, either silently fixing or being forced by immanent court action similar to the dGPU failures/debacles previous MBP's incurred.

That said it's also likely a reflection of Apple's user base with so few actually employing the MBP in a professional role, nor will I be surprised if that number drops. Certainly in my realm I am not aware of anyone who is using or contemplating using the new MBP with the port situation & keyboard presenting the most concern...

Q-6

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Agreed, and the its odd to hear that people keep saying you'll get used to it, adjust to it, accept it. Seems like making excuses for having a keyboard that is inferior to a full keyboard - inferior at least in its feel and performance.

Perhaps I'd get used to it, and if I want to remain in the Apple ecosystem, I'd have to accept it for the most part. For now, I'm sitting on the sidelines using my 2012 rMBP.

It's not a case of getting used to anything, it's a keyboard. You press buttons and things happen on the display... Ergonomically it is better than a old style keyboard as there is less travel, which means less finger work and so less fatigue. Zero travel keyboards are an issue, those found on tablets or on very old keyboards such as a Sinclair ZX80. But this is a perfectly usable and frankly better keyboard than previous generations had. There was a time when all keyboards were the old style ones that you'd find on a ThinkPad, and island/chiclet were seen as really bad. Now, some years later, pretty much all laptop keyboards use that design. And I'd imagine things will carry on in the future to follow new designs rather than sticking with what is 'considered' the best at the time, otherwise we'd all be using those terrible 'ergonomic' keyboards from the 90s!

It's worth highlighting that people have always and likely will always pick faults in these things though.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-how-bad-is-the-ibooks-keyboard.127940/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/huge-keyboard-problem.50911/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/very-minor-criticism-of-macbook-keyboard.279443/

2008 "The keys are whisper-quiet and comfortable to type on, but for people used to pillowy keys it might take some getting used to." https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/macbook-pro-2008

All I'm saying is whenever Apple in particular introduce something or change something, there's a wave of people that jump to criticise. Increasingly so too. I'd imagine this will die down in 2-3 years once other manufacturers have followed suite, but until then we are going to have a few lone voices shouting and sticking with their current machine. Which is absolutely fine, if you enjoy your current computer then there's no need to move on from it right?

 

[maflynn]

rgonomically it is better than a old style keyboard as there is less travel,

Actaully I think its worse ergonmically as a touch typest you can no longer rest your fingers on the keys like it was taught in school. If small key travel was ergonically superior, we'd see desktop keyboards, especially those expensive ergonomic once have tiny key travel but we don't.

Yes, many people will get used to it, but getting used to something doesn't equate to it being superior.

 

[ilian92]

It's human nature to have two extremes and have people viciously defending one or the other, but I honestly feel like this is just a computer and we need to take a step back and think about what this argument is turning into.

That said, the new keyboard was made because the laptop is thinner. Of course it was, and they even said it themselves when presenting the Macbook - they needed something thin enough but at the same time good enough for extended use. Same logic applies as to why they moved it onto the Macbook Pro. Leaves a bit more room on the inside for components/cooling, and allows for a smaller and thinner device.

Why thinner? Because it's a laptop that you're meant to throw around with you everywhere you go, and if they can shave off 4mm or 400g, then why not? Every little helps. And ultimately, the vision for the Pro laptop that they showed was to have the device connected to an external monitor when at a desk. In many cases people tend to attach an external keyboard in this scenario as they move the laptop further away and to the side of the screen. This way you get the best of both worlds - thinner laptop and a full sized keyboard when "docked".

Whether that's right or wrong for you is a highly personal decision. Ultimately some people will like it, others won't. And if someone is a long time Macbook Pro user and doesn't like the new keyboard, it's only natural to be upset about it. The "get something else" argument doesn't make much sense either, if that person does not "want" to go for a different product. But these are the company decisions and we just need to live with them.

 

[maflynn]

That said, the new keyboard was made because the laptop is thinner.

Agreed, Apple's intent wasn't to make a better keyboard, it was looking to make a thinner laptop and in order to do so, they had to re-engineer the keyboard.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Actaully I think its worse ergonmically as a touch typest you can no longer rest your fingers on the keys like it was taught in school. If small key travel was ergonically superior, we'd see desktop keyboards, especially those expensive ergonomic once have tiny key travel but we don't.

Yes, many people will get used to it, but getting used to something doesn't equate to it being superior.

I'm a touch typist and rest my keys on it? Were you taught to rest your keys or press them? If you were wearing massive sovereign rings or something I could understand. But it does actually take force to push a key. So I don't understand "You can no longer rest your fingers on the keys".

 

[Queen6]

Actaully I think its worse ergonmically as a touch typest you can no longer rest your fingers on the keys like it was taught in school. If small key travel was ergonically superior, we'd see desktop keyboards, especially those expensive ergonomic once have tiny key travel but we don't.

Yes, many people will get used to it, but getting used to something doesn't equate to it being superior.

Exactly; Apple wanted a thinner profile, nothing more complex than that, in that process the typing experience was compromised too what it is today. Had Apple intended on providing the best typing experience the MBP keyboard would be significantly different to what it is today...

Q-6

 

[ilian92]

Agreed, Apple's intent wasn't to make a better keyboard, it was looking to make a thinner laptop and in order to do so, they had to re-engineer the keyboard.

We can't know if their intent was to make a better keyboard or not. For all we know, they might genuinely believe the new one is superior. What we do know is that they had to do it as you say, because they wanted to make a thinner laptop.

And people will either love it or hate it. But that's how this works, like politics, sports, or anything else people feel like they have a personal affiliation with.

 

[maflynn]

We can't know if their intent was to make a better keyboard or not

Back in 2015 Phil Schiller was introducing the new retina MacBook and talked about the need to reinvent all the components. It was done with the intent of making an incredibly thin design, not to make a better keyboard. I think we all can see in how Apple was promoting the MacBook and subsequent MacBook Pros that the new butterfly keyboard's was added so they can make a thinner laptop.

 

[ilian92]

Back in 2015 Phil Schiller was introducing the new retina MacBook and talked about the need to reinvent all the components. It was done with the intent of making an incredibly thin design, not to make a better keyboard. I think we all can see in how Apple was promoting the MacBook and subsequent MacBook Pros that the new butterfly keyboard's was added so they can make a thinner laptop.

This wasn't my point and I'm not denying they wanted to make a thinner laptop, which in turn made them come up with the new keyboard.

My point is that thinner and better don't have to be opposites. They may believe the new one is better, or they may see it as a compromise. From outside we will not really find out. And that's why it ends up being a personal feeling for every user - whether you like it or not.

 

[maflynn]

My point is that thinner and better don't have to be opposites.

It may not be opposites, but its my opinion that Apple made sacrifices in designing the new keyboard that affects user experiences.

And that's why it ends up being a personal feeling for every user - whether you like it or not.

Yes, I agree, its personal preference, which in a sense is why I was refuting the blanket statement that this new keyboard is ergnomically superior due to its short travel.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

It may not be opposites, but its my opinion that Apple made sacrifices in designing the new keyboard that affects user experiences.


Yes, I agree, its personal preference, which in a sense is why I was refuting the blanket statement that this new keyboard is ergnomically superior due to its short travel.

And your opinions are based on not owning or using one?

If you want to refute the ergonomics, prove that the old one is more ergonomic or that the new one is less so. But then the issue of thin comes up, but then the issue of low key travel, and then usually that you can't rest your hands on it, followed by some other thing. Point being, personal preference or not, some people seem to want to dislike it as opposed to see any benefit what-so-ever. Which is evidenced by the multiple threads on the subject which all inevitably end with "let's agree to disagree".

 

[Saturn007]

I've been tempted by the MacBooks and MacBook Pros. I do need to upgrade my laptop. But I've hesitated over this very keyboard issue.

The thread has been useful, informative, and even reassuring. Only a few people, though, specified if they were Touch Typists. I am, and used to type 80 wpm with only 0-1 errors.

My typing hit the pits with the brick-like MacBook Air keyboard and has never fully recovered. I am concerned it will take another hit with the even shallower travel of the new design, notwithstanding the wider keys and apparent responsiveness. I certainly wasn't thrilled with the newer keyboard in the store, so that concerns me. However, one cannot sit there, and the word processing software is not the same, so that's not a real test.

Yet, adding in the fact that I am incredibly and increasingly frustrated trying to use the onscreen iPad keyboard, makes me even more Leary of tablet-like keyboards, (Apple's auto-correct a essential Yet it's gotten worse over time-- it's software engineers need to get on it, but that's a to
If for another day and bread! (See what I mean!).

I enjoy somewhat a smallish Bluetooth keyboard with it, but such things as a lack of forward delete, limited travel, and size have made me even more sensitive to this issue.

So, of those of you who have adjusted readily with equal or improved accuracy to the new keyboards are you touch typists and did you come from a MacBook Air, or the much older, better keyboards of the MacBook Pros, say those from pre-2010?!