Macbook pro dissapointment

[Surely]

I'm not arguing, especially not with Harperjones.

You did say you haven't read every post but I myself did make the point about the premium being around since forever but the stores have been around since 2001. Now the money for those expensive stores have got to come from somewhere haven't they, we can't prove or disprove the premiums on macs financed the creation of the stores, but it is logical to assume that right? Anyway that part of the discussion isn't the important bit.

No, I don't think that it's necessarily logical to assume that. If there was a cause-and-effect event, meaning that Apple raised the prices on their products and then opened their first store, it would be logical to assume that the purpose of the premium is to finance the stores. I think that Apple would have opened stores and set them up in the way they did even if they didn't charge a premium, because they're excellent at marketing and they know how important it is to have a place to properly represent their products.

Now my main point is that HarperJones sees no value in how the features (could) play a role in the pricing of Apple's products, but my point to HarperJones is that a consumer can perceive value instead. Nobody can really argue with that because it's a subjective POV, HarperJones btw if you haven't read that particular post, said he doesn't value the Apple stores.

On the last point, you've simply brought up the same point that HarperJones did; that you can demo the machines, again not outlining out the other freebies and also while one person might not value those other freebies, a lot of other people (customers) will.

I, like you, can see the incredible value in the Apple Stores for Apple. They can design them the way they want to, display their products the way they want to, and train their staff the way they want to. Apple doesn't need to fully rely on the Resellers anymore- they've taken some (if not most) of the power back. However, I don't see the stores playing a major role in the pricing of their products. As we've both stated, Apple's prices have always been high, and I'd bet that there was no significant spike in pricing in 2001 (or in the years following) when the Apple Stores started to open. If there was a spike, I would agree with you 100%.

The reason that I brought up the "ability to demo at other stores" point, is because it's true. I don't understand what you mean by 'freebies'. When you go to the Apple Store, do they give you free software and iPhone cases or something? (If they do, can you take me with you the next time you go?) Trying out their products isn't a freebie. If they displayed all of their products behind glass and you couldn't try them out, do you think that their sales would be as high as they are? Probably not. The Genius Bar service is like an extension of their phone help service (which they had prior to 2001), and it is accounted/paid for by the 1 year warranty you get when you buy your product, and of course, with AppleCare.

There's a yoga/gym clothing line called Lululemon. It is an expensive brand of yoga/gym clothes...... I would even consider them the Apple of yoga clothing. They offer free yoga and running classes in some (if not all) of their stores. Their clothing isn't expensive because of the free classes. Their clothing is expensive because they decided to charge a premium for it, and to help display the value, they do cool things like have free yoga classes. If they stopped having the classes, their prices wouldn't go down.

If Apple stopped having Genius bars and working product demos and seminars, their prices wouldn't go down either.

Apple products aren't expensive because of the way they run their stores. Their products are expensive because that is what Apple has decided to charge for them, and because the public has decided that they are willing to pay those prices for them. Could they go higher? Perhaps. I am sure that they have a team of accountants and actuaries that work for them with the aim of determining the perfect price points of each product. Go to high, people stop buying. Go too low, people won't think of them as them as premium products.

 

[GroovyLinuxGuy]

I'm a software developer - not a noob,

Speaking as from a Sys Admin's point of view are those not the same thing?

Kidding..really I am!

 

[Rampant.A.I.]

There is no Apple store anywhere near here and on the phone I tried being nice, being demanding, all tactics...at this point I am calmly detached and just going to not settle for anything less than what I paid for and any time lost being covered as this has cost me money so far. This is going to take a while it's clear.

If you're really that dissatisfied, what is the more logical course of action?

A) Post about how dissatisfied you are on a Mac messageboard, and argue with other forum posters about how terrible Apple's service is.
+
Demand a full reimbursement for your time and trouble testing one of their machines.

or

B) Take it back and get a machine you really like, and get on with your life.

Apple products aren't expensive because of the way they run their stores. Their products are expensive because that is what Apple has decided to charge for them, and because the public has decided that they are willing to pay those prices for them. Could they go higher? Perhaps. I am sure that they have a team of accountants and actuaries that work for them with the aim of determining the perfect price points of each product. Go to high, people stop buying. Go too low, people won't think of them as them as premium products.

Absolutely. Apple's products have always come at a premium price, far before they had retail stores of their own. The thing that people do not seem to get about Apple, much like many other "premium" manufacturers, is that they are not directly competing with the PC market. You can't take an Apple laptop and compare it side-by-side with an mid level Dell, and say that because they're both laptop computers their prices should be comparable.

But to folks who are really are dead-set on that ideology, I say:

Dude. Get a dell.

 

[Matthew Yohe]

I downloaded latest firware for display adapter, googled settings to death, took of mirror settings, got latest lcd drivers, display is sharper but still blurry.

It doesnt work at all in Windows - blank screen. I'm a software developer - not a noob, but you're right it must be user error cause it cant possible be Apple who's in the wrong here, ooooh no.

You have yet to acknowledge the fact that you're complaining about an OS that isn't supported yet. This severely cuts into your list complaints.

 

[sdsvtdriver]

Fact still stands : when I buy a $2400 laptop I expect the external lcd display to be pin sharp, and more importantly I expect it to work.

I downloaded latest firware for display adapter, googled settings to death, took of mirror settings, got latest lcd drivers, display is sharper but still blurry.

It doesnt work at all in Windows - blank screen. I'm a software developer - not a noob, but you're right it must be user error cause it cant possible be Apple who's in the wrong here, ooooh no.

software devs have always entertained me over the years. they can do incredible things with software and they know it, however unfortunately tend to develop a big head and think they know everything computer related even though many things are outside their realm of expertise.

Lesson 1: Using a VGA connection on an LCD or LED monitor is like watching standard definition TV on your HDTV. It is going to look like ass no matter what you do. If you want a pin sharp picture, you will need to use the DVI connector. Hopefully this analogy helps you as you haven't seemed to grasp this concept from others who have posted previously. No matter how much you whine, it will not look as sharp as you want it to.

Lesson 2: Windows 7 was released to general retail industry on October 22. That is roughly 6 weeks ago. Being a dev, you of all people should know that dot zero releases are potentially buggy and lack driver support from many vendors. I'm sure drivers will come along that will make Windows 7 work well in boot camp, however I'd gather that supporting Windows is not Apple #1 priority, so whining about not having 100% support 6 weeks into it's real world life is stretching your justification. Use XP.

The rest of your concerns are hardware related. You knew what the mbp offered when you purchased it, expansion wise. Perhaps you made a poor choice in your purchase and should have settled for a cheap imac and a nice acer laptop and called it a day.

 

[Jpoon]

Fact still stands : when I buy a $2400 laptop I expect the external lcd display to be pin sharp, and more importantly I expect it to work.

Use it in OS X like it was intended to then.

Also, calling people fanboys in an Apple forum usually is a good way to make more enemies than friends. People that cause trouble come and go.

All your negativity will catch up to you pretty fast (usually not in the best of ways). I'm happy you found the forum to complain to us; everything negative you've said (and will say) really doesn't have meaning in the end though.

Hope your iPhone development proves fruitful though .

Also further proving that you don't understand how the hardware works: "I bought a Mini DisplayPort to VGA adapter at what I thought was a complete ripoff, only to find that in MAC OSX my external screen appears unacceptably blurry (although pin sharp when plugged in to any of my other workstations)"

Learn to DVI-D or change screen resolutions to fit the monitor you're outputting to.

 

[CrackedButter]

No, I don't think that it's necessarily logical to assume that. If there was a cause-and-effect event, meaning that Apple raised the prices on their products and then opened their first store, it would be logical to assume that the purpose of the premium is to finance the stores. I think that Apple would have opened stores and set them up in the way they did even if they didn't charge a premium, because they're excellent at marketing and they know how important it is to have a place to properly represent their products.

I, like you, can see the incredible value in the Apple Stores for Apple. They can design them the way they want to, display their products the way they want to, and train their staff the way they want to. Apple doesn't need to fully rely on the Resellers anymore- they've taken some (if not most) of the power back. However, I don't see the stores playing a major role in the pricing of their products. As we've both stated, Apple's prices have always been high, and I'd bet that there was no significant spike in pricing in 2001 (or in the years following) when the Apple Stores started to open. If there was a spike, I would agree with you 100%.

I think it is logical, considering where Apple source their income from. Also don't forget the large war chest they have. Anyway I said that bit wasn't important. If anything, Apple's pricing has lowered, (stateside anyway) while in the UK the prices have gone up. We shouldn't discuss this because we just don't know, let me assume the logic here for myself.

The reason that I brought up the "ability to demo at other stores" point, is because it's true. I don't understand what you mean by 'freebies'. When you go to the Apple Store, do they give you free software and iPhone cases or something? (If they do, can you take me with you the next time you go?) Trying out their products isn't a freebie. If they displayed all of their products behind glass and you couldn't try them out, do you think that their sales would be as high as they are? Probably not. The Genius Bar service is like an extension of their phone help service (which they had prior to 2001), and it is accounted/paid for by the 1 year warranty you get when you buy your product, and of course, with AppleCare.

There's a yoga/gym clothing line called Lululemon. It is an expensive brand of yoga/gym clothes...... I would even consider them the Apple of yoga clothing. They offer free yoga and running classes in some (if not all) of their stores. Their clothing isn't expensive because of the free classes. Their clothing is expensive because they decided to charge a premium for it, and to help display the value, they do cool things like have free yoga classes. If they stopped having the classes, their prices wouldn't go down.

If Apple stopped having Genius bars and working product demos and seminars, their prices wouldn't go down either.

Apple products aren't expensive because of the way they run their stores. Their products are expensive because that is what Apple has decided to charge for them, and because the public has decided that they are willing to pay those prices for them. Could they go higher? Perhaps. I am sure that they have a team of accountants and actuaries that work for them with the aim of determining the perfect price points of each product. Go to high, people stop buying. Go too low, people won't think of them as them as premium products.

Basically, I'll explain it like this because I don't think you fully understand my point, because it's entirely subjective as I stated before. I'm happy to pay the premium because I value the machine itself, I'm willing to pay more over a higher spec Windows laptop. But what I don't do is include in the price is the ability to use the stores which I do regularly use, remember it's about being resourceful in order to acquire more value. So the fact that I get free wifi, genius bar appointments, seminars, the ability to charge devices in store and use the machines, being able to log in and use the machines as though they were mine. I see them as other perks to owning and expanding on the initial value of owning a Mac.

I'm not saying there is a direct link between the Mac and the stores from Apple, again I'm agreeing with you but and I'm stating this again we as the consumers are allowed to make the link and define our own values.

 

[CrackedButter]

Use it in OS X like it was intended to then.

Also, calling people fanboys in an Apple forum usually is a good way to make more enemies than friends. People that cause trouble come and go.

All your negativity will catch up to you pretty fast (usually not in the best of ways). I'm happy you found the forum to complain to us; everything negative you've said (and will say) really doesn't have meaning in the end though.

Hope your iPhone development proves fruitful though .

A lot of people here are quite critical of Apple, I never understand the fanboi remark as it's too much of a generalisation with which to label people with.

 

[Azathoth]

Lesson 1: Using a VGA connection on an LCD or LED monitor is like watching standard definition TV on your HDTV. It is going to look like ass no matter what you do. If you want a pin sharp picture, you will need to use the DVI connector. Hopefully this analogy helps you as you haven't seemed to grasp this concept from others who have posted previously. No matter how much you whine, it will not look as sharp as you want it to.

Lesson 2: Windows 7 was released to general retail industry on October 22. That is roughly 6 weeks ago. Being a dev, you of all people should know that dot zero releases are potentially buggy and lack driver support from many vendors. I'm sure drivers will come along that will make Windows 7 work well in boot camp, however I'd gather that supporting Windows is not Apple #1 priority, so whining about not having 100% support 6 weeks into it's real world life is stretching your justification. Use XP.

VGA doesn't work well at >1280*1024 in my experience. The quality of the DAC and cable no doubt play a role in this.

Re: lesson 2. The release of Windows 7 was no surprise, and developers had access to the APIs long before 22. oct. I've been running the RC/beta since Feb. Apple is being lazy/deliberately anti-competitive in not releasing proper drivers. I think this is also why/how the battery life of MBP is poor under Windows - suboptimal drivers in order to make OS X look much better in the power management dept. It's their computer, they can do what they want, but don't for a moment think that Apple has their *users* best in interests at heart - they're a big cooperation, pure and simple.

 

[Corrode]

Mods, can we lock this thread please? The OP is obviously not looking for help and only seems to reply to the posts that have nothing to do with his problem. The Apple fanboy vs. Windows fanboy debate is never a good one for a board, especially when a new member signs up on a board to provoke others.

 

[Surely]

^^^^^ If you don't like the thread, don't click on it.

I think it is logical, considering where Apple source their income from. Also don't forget the large war chest they have. Anyway I said that bit wasn't important. If anything, Apple's pricing has lowered, (stateside anyway) while in the UK the prices have gone up. We shouldn't discuss this because we just don't know, let me assume the logic here for myself.

That's not how logic works. Just saying something is logical doesn't make it so. The cause and effect relationship is important, and I think you are dismissing it because it doesn't support your argument.

Basically, I'll explain it like this because I don't think you fully understand my point, because it's entirely subjective as I stated before. I'm happy to pay the premium because I value the machine itself, I'm willing to pay more over a higher spec Windows laptop. But what I don't do is include in the price is the ability to use the stores which I do regularly use, remember it's about being resourceful in order to acquire more value. So the fact that I get free wifi, genius bar appointments, seminars, the ability to charge devices in store and use the machines, being able to log in and use the machines as though they were mine. I see them as other perks to owning and expanding on the initial value of owning a Mac.

I'm not saying there is a direct link between the Mac and the stores from Apple, again I'm agreeing with you but and I'm stating this again we as the consumers are allowed to make the link and define our own values.

No, I do fully understand what you are trying to point out. I just think that you're, well, wrong. It seems like you skimmed my post and then just reiterated what you have already said. Here's an example of something you skimmed over: genius bar appointments aren't freebies- they have been paid for by the 1 year warranties and AppleCare. If there were no warranties or AppleCare, there would be no Genius Bar.

Of course the perception of value is subjective, but you have been stating as fact that the reason for the premium that we pay for Apple products is directly attributed to the Apple Stores including the services and 'freebies' you get at them. The reason that Apple provides free wifi, seminars, ability to use their products in-store, etc., is to sell more products. They don't do it as a service to you- your use of their services, etc. is just a side effect of their sales tactics.

/Good discussion

 

[harperjones99]

You can't take an Apple laptop and compare it side-by-side with an mid level Dell, and say that because they're both laptop computers their prices should be comparable.

You can easily compare an Apple laptop to a PC laptop based on parts. When trackpads and OS are the only major differences you can easily argue the unreasonability of the price spread since the majority of the guts are the same. Other than those two things and maybe FW if you care about that you can get all the other features in other brands for half the cost. Processor specs, RAM, LED displays (and to some of us that is not an upgrade) equal to or superior than Apple's offerings are abundant.

Part of why Apple is so successful is they have succeeded well in feeding the egos of people who want to feel like they have something more expensive or "exclusive". They feel more elite since their laptop costs more or is shinier. It's the same reason people buy phones from Vertu or put diamonds on a watch...to feel "special" not because the item is actually better than a normal one. No this is not every Apple owner but it's a lot of them and it's responsible for the irritation many people have toward the brand.

If my MBP was twice as good all the way around as a comparably equipped PC then I say the price difference is justified. I wanted to try Apple and I gave it a fair shot...I love the OS and trackpad and believe both of those are superior to other offerings...however I do not think those alone justify the extreme mark ups and see nothing else about Apple that is superior. including service. I will not be buying Apple again. Sadly there will be people that will say things like "good riddance" or "fine go buy a Dell" because this elitism is ingrained in Apple culture. I want a device that works not a status symbol. There are certain brands people identify with so deeply that its comical the attachment they get.

 

[shambo]

Sounds like the BadBoy Pro aint your bag mate. Just return it and downgrade to a PC.

 

[harperjones99]

Sounds like the BadBoy Pro aint your bag mate. Just return it and downgrade to a PC.

"downgrade"?? Good job contributing to the fanboy label. To all the normal Apple owners out there people like this guy are exactly why the term exists...don't take it personally if you are not like that.

 

[Gabriel GR]

Bad Boy Pro's. Ain't that ridiculous enough?

 

[shambo]

Bad Boy Pro's. Ain't that ridiculous enough?

Green-eyed jealousy.

 

[Gabriel GR]

Green-eyed jealousy.

sure

 

[mciarlo]

Any advice on how to get my external LCD to work in Windows 7?

re: Virtual machine : I use latest version of Parallels, and it doesn't handle Visual Studio too well. It keeps on crashing whenever I open a new project.

Through bootcamp it runs fine, but then I don't have right-click or sound or aero...

Any ideas on how to get sound and right click to work in Windows 7?

I've got Windows 7 running perfectly on my MBP - though it is from early 2008. You need to install the newest Bootcamp drivers that come with Snow Leopard. This [should] give you right click with the trackpad and a working iSight camera. Just configure in the Bootcamp settings and you should be good to go.

Maybe someone can confirm that these drivers work with the newest models.

 

[9822737]

- Only 2 USB ports - how am I supposed to use this machine to be productive - think external usb HD, external mouse / keyboard, and external 3G modem.

This particular issue in my opinion is BS! You know it only has two USB ports the second you look at it, BEFORE you buy it. Look at Apple's website it clearly states that. If this is such a concern, simple - don't buy it. It's a pathetic thing to say.

AnDy

 

[shambo]

sure

At least you're honest about it. Thank you.

 

[neteng101]

Maybe someone can confirm that these drivers work with the newest models.

Sort of. Right click works using lower right of trackpad with single finger option. Two finger secondary click (right-click) is problematic, it often registers as a left-click instead. Audio and iSight are non issues. This is on a late '08 ie. first gen uMBP. Not sure about the June '09s but my guess is that two finger right click doesn't work right.

 

[kasakka]

You can easily compare an Apple laptop to a PC laptop based on parts. When trackpads and OS are the only major differences you can easily argue the unreasonability of the price spread since the majority of the guts are the same. Other than those two things and maybe FW if you care about that you can get all the other features in other brands for half the cost. Processor specs, RAM, LED displays (and to some of us that is not an upgrade) equal to or superior than Apple's offerings are abundant.

Yes, based on parts only you can certainly compare them. However design, easy of use etc are a whole another bag. We just got a HP Elitebook laptop for one of our employees and IMO it doesn't hold a candle to my Macbook Pro. Just the trackpad is really annoying - the same old and clunky thing most PC laptops have with little space to move your finger, awkward scroll bar strip etc. The case design makes it not only ugly but also bulkier and heavier.

It's the little things plus OSX where the Macbooks tend to stand above the competition. When I got my MBP I looked hard at the competition too and felt at the time (last August) none offered anything better or even equal. I've never been one to care for brand names or status symbols, I have a desktop PC too and like it as well. It's all about getting what works, and when it comes to laptops, Apple delivered with flying colors so far.

Now, the thread starter seems like he just bought his machine without giving a single thought to what he got. The VGA issues are mostly user incompetence, at least on my machine this works without a hitch and the picture is not blurry after setting the external display to correct res and having the display's settings correct (usually the auto-set does the trick).

 

[CrackedButter]

^^^^^ If you don't like the thread, don't click on it.



That's not how logic works. Just saying something is logical doesn't make it so. The cause and effect relationship is important, and I think you are dismissing it because it doesn't support your argument.

No seriously, I'm dismissing it because it's not important.

No, I do fully understand what you are trying to point out. I just think that you're, well, wrong. It seems like you skimmed my post and then just reiterated what you have already said. Here's an example of something you skimmed over: genius bar appointments aren't freebies- they have been paid for by the 1 year warranties and AppleCare. If there were no warranties or AppleCare, there would be no Genius Bar.

No, you're right, I didn't take the genius bar into account with how it's paid for.

Of course the perception of value is subjective, but you have been stating as fact that the reason for the premium that we pay for Apple products is directly attributed to the Apple Stores including the services and 'freebies' you get at them.

I'm being serious here and I've read it, re-read it, gone to work and read it again, but I don't know what you're saying, can you re-write the bit above please.

The reason that Apple provides free wifi, seminars, ability to use their products in-store, etc., is to sell more products. They don't do it as a service to you- your use of their services, etc. is just a side effect of their sales tactics.

/Good discussion

I am well aware as to why Apple provide these services.

 

[CrackedButter]

You can easily compare an Apple laptop to a PC laptop based on parts. When trackpads and OS are the only major differences you can easily argue the unreasonability of the price spread since the majority of the guts are the same. Other than those two things and maybe FW if you care about that you can get all the other features in other brands for half the cost. Processor specs, RAM, LED displays (and to some of us that is not an upgrade) equal to or superior than Apple's offerings are abundant.

Part of why Apple is so successful is they have succeeded well in feeding the egos of people who want to feel like they have something more expensive or "exclusive". They feel more elite since their laptop costs more or is shinier. It's the same reason people buy phones from Vertu or put diamonds on a watch...to feel "special" not because the item is actually better than a normal one. No this is not every Apple owner but it's a lot of them and it's responsible for the irritation many people have toward the brand.

If my MBP was twice as good all the way around as a comparably equipped PC then I say the price difference is justified. I wanted to try Apple and I gave it a fair shot...I love the OS and trackpad and believe both of those are superior to other offerings...however I do not think those alone justify the extreme mark ups and see nothing else about Apple that is superior. including service. I will not be buying Apple again. Sadly there will be people that will say things like "good riddance" or "fine go buy a Dell" because this elitism is ingrained in Apple culture. I want a device that works not a status symbol. There are certain brands people identify with so deeply that its comical the attachment they get.

At this point, you're just white noise, you can't go round labelling people like you're doing and expect people to be on your side, then explain it away by calling it fanboism whenever they disagree with you. This happened in the last thread.

In other forums you can tick a box and ignore certain people's posts and I think this forum is due an upgrade. Do widzenia.

 

[paulyras]

To the OP- I just PM'd you. I've had to work through several of the same frustrations myself (and am quite happy). I certainly can't promise that I can help, but I'd be happy to provide some free advice, as it's clearly not happening here.

Cheers,

P