MacBook Pro Only Displays Thousands of Colors
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spaceboots06
macrumors 6502a
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
Yeah, except maybe 1 or 2 models ever released to the public. That's out of > 1000 laptop models ever released. Ever.
I pretty much skipped the rest of the thread because it is so ridiculous.
Yes, the screen supports millions of colours. You can actually see millions of colours on the display. Apple is not deceiving you.
Call me an Apple fanboy or apologist if you want. I get on Apple's case more than anybody here (except maybe Sesshi), but this isn't one of those times where I'd go walking to Apple Inc. with a pitchfork and bows with arrows on fire. Colour accuracy is, in laptop terms, pretty good on Mac laptops now.
J&JPolangin
macrumors 68030
police are coming for you...
NoSmokingBandit
macrumors 68000
Color support aside, what does everyone think about Apple not disclosing hardware info to the customer? Thats bs, imo. A customer is entitled to know if a screen is 6 or 8 bit before he/she buys it, and denying this info is a bit of a dick move.
Tallest Skil
macrumors P6
Fortunately, no one gives a crap, and the people who would care find out on their own.
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
Tell me, out of all the laptops out there made by Apple, Asus, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Toshiba, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Gateway, MSI, and the rest, exactly which models have an 8-bit screen? Just name a few for us, because out of the thousands of laptop models ever made, I'd certainly like to hear all of these incredible laptop models with 8-bit displays.
Currently, there are no 8-bit laptop displays, except perhaps some very new 17" laptop LCD panels that will be widespread soon. Or perhaps there are some now in the market, or are being introduced soon. I don't follow along with display technology every month.
Anyway, 8-bit displays use up a lot more power. Also, there are no 13" 8-bit laptop displays. What do you want Apple to use? Furthermore, just because a display is 8-bit, doesn't necessarily mean it will look better.
The 17" MBP has a great screen. Yes, some may even say "professional quality", although that's up to interpretation, because for some picky individuals, it's still not 8-bit. I'm not sure about the newest 15" MBP's screen quality, but there are certainly Apple laptops that have fantastic screens when compared to the competition.
Aron Peterson
macrumors member
Ha! That's a funny question. Reminds me of some gamer forum members who argue humans can't see more than 60 frames per second (This applies to Americans and Japanese. We Brits can only see 50 frames per second!)
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
I'm guessing 6-bit, just like nearly every laptop ever made.
To give you an idea of how few 8-bit laptop displays there are, LG is probably the biggest LCD panel manufacturer in the world (or one of them), and even they only introduced (like within the last year or so) an 8-bit LCD panels for laptops recently. A single model (and therefore, a single size). Perhaps its two now, but it's probably just an update of the same 17" panel.
The HP Elitebook 8730w uses an 8-bit display that's advertised as including a TN RGBLED ("Dreamcolour") display, but then again, it's not a very good screen. Just because it's 8-bit, doesn't mean it's good.
They use the LG panel I mentioned. Dell may also use the same 8-bit TN panel for one of their 17" laptops, although I don't think so. People only assume this because it uses a similar panel from LG. The old IBM T60, which was noted for having one of the best laptop screens ever, used an IPS display capable of only displaying 6-bits (or 18-bit RGB). Despite contrary belief, it was not an 8-bit display, and yet people felt that it must have been 8-bit because it was the only laptop with a great display. In reality, it was also 6-bit, but using IPS technology.
Apple laptops support the display of millions of colours. You see millions of colours, not 18-bit (6-bit x 3). There's really no deception, as they never claimed to use some 8-bit displays that didn't even exist. They just said you'd see millions of colours, and you do.
It's amazing that people are (still) upset that Apple uses 6-bit LCD displays.
w00t951
macrumors 68000
Wait... so the only MBPs that have the 8 bit is the 17? And I have the older 15", but I do not have the long, thin slot that runs along the side with all of the ports. I have a covered slot like on the 17" MBP in Tortellino's link. What is this difference, and is it just a difference with the older and newer unibodies? I have the 2008 15" Unibody, 2,53 GHz with the 512 NVIDIA 9600GT, 4 GB of RAM with 320GB 5400 RPM machine. And why does the displays Preferences Panel say Millions of colors, max?
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djinn
macrumors 68000
And the $60,000.00 question is, will the normal Joe on the street notice this? Will they turn the laptop on to realize its only a 6bit screen?
So far I haven't received any complaints from my wife nor my friends about the displays limitations with the Macbook Pros. Granted they aren't doing graphic design but we should know that most of the graphic designers will use a Cinema display for their editing.
So far I haven't received any complaints from my wife nor my friends about the displays limitations with the Macbook Pros. Granted they aren't doing graphic design but we should know that most of the graphic designers will use a Cinema display for their editing.
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
Yes, they'll use an external display of some sort, and then calibrate it with an external calibrating device.
If they're VERY concerned, they'll even calibrate their screen for all the different lighting conditions in which they'll use their display (i.e., room lights only, room light + sunlight from window, and total darkness).
UnexpectedHuman
macrumors member
I'm guessing 6-bit, just like nearly every laptop ever made.
It's very difficult to tell. However, if I plot red, green and blue gradients across my 17" uMBP's LCD (matte, model 9CAC), it appears that there are only marginally less than 256 distinct colours without apparent dithering (the colour calibration distorts things slightly, so some colours are repeated and some omitted - the exact colours depend on the profile that is loaded).
Dithered or not, the panel definitely seems to show 8 bits of effective colour, which is what matters.
Putting up some monitor test images and comparing the MBP to my iMac (8 bit IPS) display shows the image quality to be very similar. The only obvious difference is a narrower viewing angle on the laptop with more colour saturation (which is what you would expect from a TN LCD with wider gamut).
airplaneman
macrumors 6502a
yea, dithering
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
Exactly.
Besides, when you look at 99.99% of laptops ever built, you don't see massive banding issues when colour gradients are displayed, do you? If dithering wasn't working, and you weren't able to see millions of colours, you'd see colour bands in gradients. Since this isn't the case, dithering must be effective at showing you millions of colours, not thousands.
There have been banding issues reported with some screens, but that was usually an issue that could be fixed through firmware (or driver) updates. It wasn't directly caused by dithering.
stainlessliquid
macrumors 68000
I never said anything about 8bit. I said PC laptops offer much better screen options. Macbook Pros offer middle of the road screen quality when compared to PC's, if they are professional quality then crayola markers are professional as well since theyre better than the 99 cent markers.Tell me, out of all the laptops out there made by Apple, Asus, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Toshiba, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Gateway, MSI, and the rest, exactly which models have an 8-bit screen? Just name a few for us, because out of the thousands of laptop models ever made, I'd certainly like to hear all of these incredible laptop models with 8-bit displays.
Currently, there are no 8-bit laptop displays, except perhaps some very new 17" laptop LCD panels that will be widespread soon. Or perhaps there are some now in the market, or are being introduced soon. I don't follow along with display technology every month.
Furthermore, just because a display is 8-bit, doesn't necessarily mean it will look better.
The 17" MBP has a great screen. Yes, some may even say "professional quality", although that's up to interpretation, because for some picky individuals, it's still not 8-bit. I'm not sure about the newest 15" MBP's screen quality, but there are certainly Apple laptops that have fantastic screens when compared to the competition.
Theyre good enough but theres a hell of a lot better out there.
As a designer so do mind about my colors and the difference is noticeable, especially when working with gradients of similar colors.
I may work on a large monitor, but if I bring my laptop to show my art to someone I want it to have the best resolution possible, and like Mantia pointed it out, if you pay a premium for a "Pro" product you expect a pro color.
The statement that they use dithering to achieve millions of colors is flawed - if they did it perhaps wouldn't actually be that bad, but they don't. It literally only has thousands of colors and that's it.
I made a few images to point out the differences - obviously you'll need an 8-bit display to notice them:
This is what the image looks like on the MBP, no dither and noticeable color banding as a result:
This is what it would look like if it did have dither - you can see the noise trying to give the impression of millions of colors:
This is the original 8-bit:
I never sued anyone in my life, but I do wonder how a company can make such false claims and get away with it.
I didn't read the specs when I bought this product, I just expected it to be awesome like every apple product. This is very disappointing.
I may work on a large monitor, but if I bring my laptop to show my art to someone I want it to have the best resolution possible, and like Mantia pointed it out, if you pay a premium for a "Pro" product you expect a pro color.
The statement that they use dithering to achieve millions of colors is flawed - if they did it perhaps wouldn't actually be that bad, but they don't. It literally only has thousands of colors and that's it.
I made a few images to point out the differences - obviously you'll need an 8-bit display to notice them:
This is what the image looks like on the MBP, no dither and noticeable color banding as a result:
This is what it would look like if it did have dither - you can see the noise trying to give the impression of millions of colors:
This is the original 8-bit:
I never sued anyone in my life, but I do wonder how a company can make such false claims and get away with it.
I didn't read the specs when I bought this product, I just expected it to be awesome like every apple product. This is very disappointing.
gnasher729
Suspended
This has been discussed to death years ago. 8-bit displays can only display 766 different colours. Yet they achieve millions of colours by using a technique called spatial dithering. No sane person complains that 8-bit displays cannot even display 1000 different colours. 6-bit displays can only display 190 different colors. Yet they achieve millions of colours by combining spatial and temporal dithering. That is absolutely truthful.
Careful readers will check whether a display has 16.2 million colours (that is 6 bit with temporal dithering, producing 253 x 253 x 253 different colours) or 16.7 million colours. 16.7 million means one of two things: Either it is 8 bit (256 x 256 x 256 colours) or 6 bit with some marketing idiots getting it wrong. Apple's "millions of colours" is not specific enough, but it is one hundred percent true when compared to what any other manufacturer claims.
13" MacBook Pro here, I clearly see a difference like you said in the 3 pictures. The 1st has heavy banding, the difference between the 2nd and the 3th is subtle but like you said, there is more noise in the 2nd. The colors transitions on the 3rd are really smooth.
As a designer so do mind about my colors and the difference is noticeable, especially when working with gradients of similar colors.
I may work on a large monitor, but if I bring my laptop to show my art to someone I want it to have the best resolution possible, and like Mantia pointed it out, if you pay a premium for a "Pro" product you expect a pro color.
The statement that they use dithering to achieve millions of colors is flawed - if they did it perhaps wouldn't actually be that bad, but they don't. It literally only has thousands of colors and that's it.
I made a few images to point out the differences - obviously you'll need an 8-bit display to notice them:
This is what the image looks like on the MBP, no dither and noticeable color banding as a result:
This is what it would look like if it did have dither - you can see the noise trying to give the impression of millions of colors:
This is the original 8-bit:
I never sued anyone in my life, but I do wonder how a company can make such false claims and get away with it.
I didn't read the specs when I bought this product, I just expected it to be awesome like every apple product. This is very disappointing.
Tortellino
macrumors newbie
Are you sure?
I am looking at your images on my 12" PB G4, which has a 6 bit display, which according to you should not show the difference. I do see banding in the first image, but the last one is as smooth as a baby's butt. All this tells me that a 6 bit display is perfectly capable of producing smoothly graduated areas, and the banding you show is not related to the bit depth of the display, but to something else. How did you produce those snap shots?
I am looking at your images on my 12" PB G4, which has a 6 bit display, which according to you should not show the difference. I do see banding in the first image, but the last one is as smooth as a baby's butt. All this tells me that a 6 bit display is perfectly capable of producing smoothly graduated areas, and the banding you show is not related to the bit depth of the display, but to something else. How did you produce those snap shots?
As a designer so do mind about my colors and the difference is noticeable, especially when working with gradients of similar colors.
I made a few images to point out the differences - obviously you'll need an 8-bit display to notice them:
This is what the image looks like on the MBP, no dither and noticeable color banding as a result:
This is what it would look like if it did have dither - you can see the noise trying to give the impression of millions of colors:
This is the original 8-bit:
I don't know enough about it to tell you how your 6 bit display is showing the smooth image. Maybe it's doing "dithering" the right way?
I reproduced these on PhotoShop saving them with fewer colors to mimic the way my MBP displays that image.
I hope this problem can be at least improved with a firmware release by Apple.
DeuceDeuce
macrumors 6502a
What needs to be "improved" if people on 13 MBP's can see what you posted. Doesn't that mean the system is working to display "Millions" of colors?
Tortellino
macrumors newbie
I don't think your method is a good one. First, there are more than one methods to reduce the depth from 8 to 6 bits, and one could imagine that it's customized to each specific image pattern, similar to how GIF can create custom color maps.
Secondly, dithering can also be performed in different ways, and Apple's may be better than Photoshop's.
Thirdly, it's misleading to say that this _IS_ what the image looks like on MBP, when you actually simulated it using a different set of programs according to what you _THINK_ it does. If you have the real thing post a screen capture.
I am not trying to defend Apple for sake of it being right, but when people tell me there's a problem I want to be able to judge it objectively, rather than based on hearsay.
Secondly, dithering can also be performed in different ways, and Apple's may be better than Photoshop's.
Thirdly, it's misleading to say that this _IS_ what the image looks like on MBP, when you actually simulated it using a different set of programs according to what you _THINK_ it does. If you have the real thing post a screen capture.
I am not trying to defend Apple for sake of it being right, but when people tell me there's a problem I want to be able to judge it objectively, rather than based on hearsay.